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Wasteland Hiver vs Vault Dweller & Wasteland 2 Cage Match Thread

hiver

Guest
If you say so.
I do say so.


In the late 90s, Blizzard and Bioware made RPGs cool and hip, starting the long awaited renaissance. Suddenly, everyone was busy making RPGs and trying to jump on the Diablo bandwagon. In 1997, Interplay invited gamers to roam wastelands once again, this time in a sleeper hit called Fallout. It was praised, slam-dunked, milked for nearly all its worth into a lifeless husk, and eventually passed on to Bethesda to be reimagined and milked again.
Which was all the fault of the Inxile captain who had to be begged to allocate some resources to Fallout, so it could be done at all, who drove away the designers who actually created Fallout, instead opting for trash action console games.
Not only that but apparently, according to his own words in a Polygon interview, it was him that caused the Ip to go to bethesda hands, instead of Troika who tried to bid for it but failed since they were lacking the millions Zenimax paid for it.

Wasteland takes places in an over-the-top post-apocalyptic universe that doesn’t concern itself with realism. Think Fallout 2 with all the over-the-top stuff like fedora-clad gangsters with Tommy guns running rival casinos, talking deathclaws, aliens, scientologists, giant robots, etc.
Those were all small inconsequential additions to the Fallout core, altogether making less then 5% of the game. Fedora clad gangsters were nothing but a few character models of 5 or 6 ordinary irrelevant NPC lower thugs in 2 out of 4 organized crime families in one location.
And that somehow makes the hole location "fedora wearing gangsters location" which doesnt have anything to do with core concepts of fallout at all.

The rest of those overblown strawman arguments have been demolished in the recent thread about VD hate of Fallout 2. Such a playa hater, so emotional.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/underwhelmed-by-fallout.96549/page-25




Despite his proclamations on how to do reviews correctly:

In my opinion, subjective comments are best to be avoided as they don't bring any clarity.
Indeed.

The way I see it, a flaw is a very objective thing and most people would agree that it is indeed a flaw but might disagree on its affect (see the FO2 setting discussion) and how much it bothers them. RTwP vs TB is a very subjective thing where the main argument is "I enjoy TB" more. In my opinion, subjective comments are best to be avoided as they don't bring any clarity.

- a high-level design decisions, which is why I don't see the need to criticize them, only the way they were implemented. In other words, it's a developer's right to make any damn game he wants: RTwP, regen, high magic, emotional engagement (I couldn't sell my companions in Torment), etc, as long as he can do it right.

My review goes through every aspect of the game, describing them in a fairly impartial manner and listing all the flaws
hmmpff.. :lol:



well... lets see if that is true.

It’s a Philip K. Dick-esque version of post-apocalypse,
Poor Philip, to be insulted so much... and for what? So you can make your review seem smart? None of the Phillip novels and books had anything to do with retarded cheap trash that makes the gameplay of W2.
That can only be said by someone who had only the most superficial understanding of Phillip K Dick works, noticing only that it is "weird".

It’s hard not to smile when you hear a choir singing “James King foresaw the doom of all, His book predicting man's great fall, And bade brave men to light the way, For those who lived through judgment day…” on the radio while traveling.
It is hard. Very.

I’d say it’s this attention to detail, the well-presented moral dilemmas and the reactivity that make this world interesting and definitely worth exploring.

There is nothing even close to any kind of moral dilemma, only very cheap soap opera schlock that almost always includes some women either being killed or begging to be killed in incoherent small forced scripts they call "reactivity". The other examples of "reactivity" are some men getting killed for no fucking sane reason, or attacking you for even stupider forced idiotic reasons, - see Scotchmo and the grave of his wife, which is the only completely unmarked grave in that graveyard.
And thats the shit that is "worth exploring". Because there isnt anything else there.


The world ended in 1998. Eventually a small group of soldiers and survivalists formed a paramilitary outfit called the Desert Rangers and went on bringing order and frontier justice to nearby communities. In the first game, Snake Vargas, Hell Razor, Angela Deth and Thrasher stopped a pre-war AI computer from destroying what was left of humanity.
15 years later Vargas is a general, Thrasher is a cartographer, while Ace and Hell Razor are dead, killed by a mysterious new menace.

:lol: Robots/Ai that want to kill everyone.



You start the game by attending Ace’s funeral and getting your first orders from Vargas.

You start the game as a group of newbie Ranger recruits who are not even rangers yet, but Vargas sends you to do his secret super important mission, and then forces you to deal with either Ag Center or Higpool before you are even recognized as Rangers and allowed into the Ranger Citadel full of high level Rangers who apparently are of no use whatsoever for such a genius script. The funeral itself doesnt mean anything to players since they have no idea who that guy was so it has precisely zero impact on any new player and quite a lot of old ones who played W1.
Because it is the first sign of cheap emotional schlock which permeates the whole game.

So the first thing you experience in this game forces you to shut down any higher brain functions and just go along with stupid gamey shit because thats what those vidya gaems do and it is all excused because wasteland is craaaazy.



The second half takes place in California, and that’s where the game truly shines.
If only shit could shine.... it would be gold.

California, as anyone who played the game and isnt a complete liar knows, just resets the whole game back to the start and forces you to repeat the stupid gameplay of the first half, with addition of collecting stupid cat liter.

It starts with you appearing at the rangers forward...ahem... "base" where everyone of those high level rangers were killed by some ridiculous idiotic small doggies. All except two rangers. One that will serve as your exposition box and the other who had been gravely wounded and who is DYING which the game forces you to witness without you being able to do anything about any of it - because the cheap schlock is what this game is about. You literally cannot move anywhere until you go and watch that ranger DYING OH NOES AARGHHH IM DYYYINGGG! scene.

Then you are allowed to go around that stupid overblown and completely empty area, patching some stupid holes on the small walls, through which those small doggies come. Only when you close all the holes by clicking on them and kille all the stupid small dogs can you go outside of that "base" and fix some fucking radio towers AGAIN.

No need to worry about leaving that single exposition box NPC there. Nothing is ever going to happen there again.

If you (any player) think the game has any kind of dangerous post apocalyptic mutants or monsters - well ... the jokes on you. Enjoy killing frogs, wolves, small doggies, a few rabbits and badgers for the whole game whose trailers claims infinite diversity of enemies - SUCKER!


Your radio is your link to the world, your source of information, quests, and local flavor, as well as your feedback.
No, it has a small role to play. Usually mostly cosmetic and sometimes utterly retarded (check your drowning boy quest as example) Your source of information and feedback is your dialogue box which serves as your literal quest compass in a game where every fucking thing you need is highlighted with glowing lights over it or pointed out to you through the dialogue box. Not the gameplay - save in a few very rare locations that someone sneaked into the game.


There is nothing like leaving your current location before completing vital tasks and getting a big ‘fuck you’ radio shout-out.
Cheap crap since you have no reason to leave any location before handling your shit there. It only happens if you leave by mistake, and of course you will reload and wont do it again - because there is n reason to do it. Except roleplaying a moron.

The radio communications are fairly frequent and fully voiced, adding quite a lot to the atmosphere.
This they do, its true. But only on your first playthrough. If you play the game again - for which you have no reason except masochism - the effect is not that great again.

Well done, inXile! Hats off!
:lol:



...


It also features a cover system, which adds a fair amount of strategic depth to battles.
Someone cant remember the difference between strategy and tactics anymore...

Funny since during the brain damaging prologue there is a character there who calls Vargas a superb strategist (and you never experience anything close to that, quite the opposite) - get this... the likes of general Patton.
They actually call general Patton a strategist!!

And thats an American company who even said they included some veterans in the design as advisers! :lol:




Anyway, i could go over more of this review but it would waste of too much of my time. The rest of it isnt much different.

If codex would want an actual review of this game let me know.
In unlikely case you would i will need a few volunteers in writing it - to balance my hatred.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
I do say so.
Seriously? You think I have time to go through this point by point? I can address the first couple of points, the rest - later/never.

Which was all the fault of the Inxile captain who had to be begged to allocate some resources to Fallout, so it could be done at all, who drove away the designers who actually created Fallout, instead opting for trash action console games.
It's a lot more complex than that and you know it (or should know it). If this topic is to be explored (by someone who actually gives a fuck), it should be done in a separate article, not a WL2 review.

Funds and resources? Fallout was released in '97 and in '98:

"By 1998 the financial situation at Interplay was dire and the company was in bankruptcy court. To avert bankruptcy Interplay went public in order to raise capital and pay off debt. Interplay was successful in its public offering and avoided bankruptcy. Shares were sold on the NASDAQ Stock Exchange and the Interplay changed its name to Interplay Entertainment Corp.

Interplay continued to endure losses under Brian Fargo due to increased competition, less than stellar returns on Interplay’s sports division and the lack of console titles. This forced Interplay to seek additional funding two years later with an investment from Titus Software, a Paris-based game company. Titus agreed to invest 25 million dollars in Interplay and a few months later this was followed up by an additional 10 million investment. Despite releasing critically acclaimed games such as Descent 3 and FreeSpace 2 the company then reported several additional quarters of losses."

Fargo deserves some of the blame for Interplay going down (from the management perspective, he probably deserves all of it as the company was in his hands and he was or should be responsible for every decision that led to the downfall. However, he did create this company out of nothing and this company did create a lot of really good games, including Fallout, so why bitch about it now?

Not only that but apparently, according to his own words in a Polygon interview, it was him that caused the Ip to go to bethesda hands, instead of Troika who tried to bid for it but failed since they were lacking the millions Zenimax paid for it.
I didn't read it this way.

Later, he learned that many of Interplay's creditors were not being paid, some of whom were people he had done business with. He pulled them together and filed a winding-up order against Interplay.

In order to pay its bills, and get Fargo off its back, Titus was forced to sell prime assets. One of them was a property called Fallout, which was picked up by developer Bethesda.

"The whole reason why Bethesda has the rights to Fallout is because of me," he recalls. "Bethesda had already licensed Fallout from Interplay, but it was for a license deal, a percentage. [Interplay] sold Fallout to Bethesda for $3.8 million. Everybody got paid what they were owed, including some of my old employees.

"Do you know how much Bethesda would have had to pay on Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas? It would have been tens of millions of dollars I saved Bethesda, because they got to terminate that royalty deal."
The gist of it is that if not for his lawsuit that forced Interplay to sell the IP, Bethesda would have had to pay tens of millions and keep licensing the IP. He clearly states that they had already licensed it by then, meaning Troika was already out of the picture. What Leon said before doesn't contradict it. Troika was trying to license the IP and that's where Bethesda outbid them.

Those were all small inconsequential additions to the Fallout core, altogether making less then 5% of the game.
And how did you arrive to this number?

Fedora clad gangsters were nothing but a few character models of 5 or 6 ordinary irrelevant NPC lower thugs in 2 out of 4 organized crime families in one location.
And that somehow makes the hole location "fedora clad gangsters" location which doesnt have anything to do with core concepts of fallout at all.
We've talked about it already. I've even talked to Avellone about it:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=125

"Secondly, I (and Tom French, now a rockstar at Pandemic) had a lot of fun working on New Reno. I think it presents a lot of fun role-playing opportunities and things to do, no matter what "type" of character you are, but does it fit in the setting? No, probably not. It's too sexually over the top, too much profanity, and the look and attitude of some of the characters is too modern-day to complement the feel of the Fallout world (the Mordino family, the fedora hats, the porn studio, the tommy guns, shivs). In that respect, I would consider it an immature design, and while I had fun with it, I don't think it was the best rendition of a section of the Fallout world. It also had horrible load times because I crammed too much stuff in there.

But I still think it was fun to play, and it was fun to design. And I think it was cool to be able to go back there after the game was over and have some fun. And killing the crime bosses in secret ways was fun. And I liked Golgotha, even if the name was inappropriate. And I liked Lenny's Dad (thanks, French)."

But you, hiver, know better so I'll bow to your wisdom.

Poor Philip, to be insulted so much... and for what? So you can make your review seem smart? None of the Phillip novels and books had anything to do with retarded cheap trash that makes the gameplay of W2. That can only be said by someone who had only the most superficial understanding of Phillip K Dick works, noticing only that it is "weird".
I gave you a very specific example, which you ignored. I guess you think that all arguments you ignore are automatically demolished. Ka-boom!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Days_of_Perky_Pat

In this story, survivors of a global thermonuclear war live in isolated enclaves in California, surviving off what they can scrounge from the wastes and supplies delivered from Mars. The older generation spend their leisure time playing with the eponymous doll in an escapist role-playing game that recalls life before the apocalypse — a way of life that is being quickly forgotten. At the story's climax, a couple from one isolated outpost of humanity play a game against dwellers of another outpost (who play the game with a doll similar to Perky Pat dubbed "Connie Companion") in deadly earnest. The survivors' shared enthusiasm for the Perky Pat doll and the creation of her accessories from vital supplies is a sort of mass delusion that prevents meaningful re-building of the shattered society. In stark contrast, the children of the survivors show absolutely no interest in the delusion and have begun adapting to their new life.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
97,739
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think we need a general purpose hiver vs Vault Dweller Megathread.

Seriously, this is some Anakin Skywalker vs Obi Wan Kenobi shit.

Obi-Wan%2BYou%2Bwere%2Bmy%2Bbrother%252C%2BAnakin%2BI%2Bloved%2Byou.jpg
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
Feels like the Codex is back to normal with Hiver ranting about WL2 here instead of various substitute forums :lol:
 

hiver

Guest
It's a lot more complex than that and you know it (or should know it). If this topic is to be explored (by someone who actually gives a fuck), it should be done in a separate article, not a WL2 review.
That is correct. Thats why it should not have been a part of your review.

And how did you arrive to this number?
By completely over-blowing it for good measure.

I know what Avellone said about it.
But the things he mentions as over the top do not make that whole location. And whats really important -
I think it presents a lot of fun role-playing opportunities and things to do,
- was done exactly like a Fallout game should be done.
Not only various ways to roleplay inside the city but numerous connections to the other locations and quest threads, from that military base you discover through interaction with the Wright family, to connections to the Vault city and NCR thrugh Bishops family, to connections to he whole drugs deal, with Myron baby, Myron and Reding. And Enclave itself.

I never claimed that those few fedora wearing thugs or Mordinos (godfather movies) were the real true Fallout stuff, but that it is excusable or tolerable in light of or compared to what really matters.


I did not ignore your example of the Perky pat, which was just one of the many novels and stories Philip wrote. I said that clearly even that small story had much deeper meaning to it then just some superficial weird stuff.
The weird and strange stuff in Phillip K Dick novels was never the point to itself. It was never superficial and it was always used to talk about and explore much deeper themes.

None of which has anything to do with W2 silly, superficial, cheap, crass crap of scenarios.


-
guys, im just moving the discussion about VD review away from that other thread.
And its not that i just discovered his review right now.

and dont expect too much, i hear the call of a dark Leffe calling me so i must leave you and go check how cold it is outside and when i return i will spend time watching son of Gustaff trying to apply some fine Arts to Rumbling Anthony and vice versa.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
That is correct. Thats why it should not have been a part of your review.
Which parts are untrue? Interplay did create Fallout (if you paid attention, you noticed I said Interplay not Fargo) and the industry did ignore it. Diablo launched an army of clones that still keeps on marching. BG made Bioware a thing. Fallout? Fallout was that game that geeks raved about. Nobody else gave a fuck (and still doesn't).

I think it presents a lot of fun role-playing opportunities and things to do
- was done exactly like a Fallout game should be done.
Did anyone claim that Fallout 2 in general and NR in particular were poor designed? No? Then why bring it up?

I did not ignore your example of the Perky pat, which was just one of the many novels and stories Philip wrote. I said that clearly even that small story had much deeper meaning to it then just some superficial weird stuff. The weird and strange stuff in Phillip K Dick novels was never the point to itself. It was never superficial and it was always used to talk about and explore much deeper themes.
Dick liked the strange and weird. He liked exploring "but what if" scenario that were utterly unrealistic and often silly. Can you imagine entire communities playing this silly doll game, competing against each other, wasting time making little assets? He had quite a few PA stories that were similarly weird, WL2-style weird. A Game of Unchance would be another example (if that's the one where the colony on Mars uses a kid with a gift to play against the visiting carnies winning some dolls that start wreaking havoc).

None of which has anything to do with W2 silly, superficial, cheap, crass crap of scenarios.
If you say so.
 

hiver

Guest
1. Your review starts with proclamations about who did what about interplay, clearly painting one side as innocent victim of evil herve.

- i reply to that by posting my version which at the very least holds as much water as yours.

- you reply that such things should not be parts of review but a separate discussion which would -maybe- bring out some actual facts about that whole time and how it ended as it did.

- i reply that then obviously, such a theme should not be a part of your own review.

And to that you reply with this:

Which parts are untrue? Interplay did create Fallout (if you paid attention, you noticed I said Interplay not Fargo) and the industry did ignore it. Diablo launched an army of clones that still keeps on marching. BG made Bioware a thing. Fallout? Fallout was that game that geeks raved about. Nobody else gave a fuck (and still doesn't).

What the FUCK does that have to do with the logic and matter of the exchange above?
Why is argument about whether such things should be parts of review turn into whether fallout was financially popular or not? (about which i would disagree for many reasons)

It seems to me you are actually not capable of correctly following any simple exchange ... which then ends in you shifting goal posts. I usually take that as obvious intentional fallacy but i really wonder.



Same thing with the example of Phillip K Dick.

1. you say its about weird and strange stuff.

2. I reply that such things were never the purpose in on themselves in any work Phillip ever published (which is something so well known and understood that anyone claiming different is automatically a fucking imbecile and thats putting it politely)

3. you reply that its about weird and strange stuff - again.
Dick liked the strange and weird. He liked exploring "but what if" scenario that were utterly unrealistic and often silly. Can you imagine entire communities playing this silly doll game, competing against each other, wasting time making little assets?

and you fucking dare claim that
He had quite a few PA stories that were similarly weird, WL2-style weird.

Which only means that youve read all those novels, stories and books of his with basically no understanding what are they really about. Which is beyond disgraceful.




Not to mention how much of content above you just skipped over, the same as you did in your incredibly superficial review.



If you are actually not capable of understanding these simple things... i see no point in discussing anything with you at all. whatever you say is either a complete banal stupid shit, or a fallacy you intentionally use to try and desperately hold your starting position - which is unattainable and indefensible under any real logical consideration. Proof above.
 

Lgrayman

Novice
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
29
Quite late to this post but

Vault Dweller said:
Dragon Age Origins (not the sequels)

not bad

Will you be saying that about Wasteland 2 in a few years? Merely 'not bad'? You were gushing over DA:O a few years ago, weren't you? And I agreed with you. Good game. Shame about the nightmarish amount of filler combat though.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Will you be saying that about Wasteland 2 in a few years? Merely 'not bad'? You were gushing over DA:O a few years ago, weren't you? And I agreed with you. Good game. Shame about the nightmarish amount of filler combat though.
I wouldn't call it 'gushing'. From the review's summary:

So, what do we get?
  • A generic but well designed, well thought-through world;
  • A generic threat that's merely a background; the game is more about you dealing with different factions than about you stopping the Blight;
  • Very detailed character system with some flaws;
  • Tactical combat wasted on filler encounters;
  • Standard party members setup with all the banter and drama you can expect, but this time you can kill a lot more party members, which is a must-have feature in a Bioware game;
  • Truly excellent quest choices and options sandwiched between a linear and not overly interesting beginning and an anticlimatic ending.
... Dragon Age has flaws, and if you focus on them, you'll miss a pretty good role-playing game. It's a Bioware game, which means that it has a certain set of features that Bioware has developed into a trademark design over the last decade. However, Bioware has managed to improve and evolve that design significantly, keeping the strong story-focus, while loading in a wide range of player choices and paths, which makes it the best Bioware RPG and one of the best role-playing games in years despite the flaws.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
1. Your review starts with proclamations about who did what about interplay, clearly painting one side as innocent victim of evil herve.
Which is exactly what happened. Titus took over and started siphoning money out of Interplay, leaving nothing but a husk, which was a well documented fact. Brian may have mismanaged the company he created when it grew too big too fast, but Fargo's Interplay gave us a lot of great games. Herve's Interplay gave us nothing; he took everything, sold assets, and then did that V13 fundraising scam, encouraging people to empty their bank accounts.

Which parts are untrue? Interplay did create Fallout (if you paid attention, you noticed I said Interplay not Fargo) and the industry did ignore it. Diablo launched an army of clones that still keeps on marching. BG made Bioware a thing. Fallout? Fallout was that game that geeks raved about. Nobody else gave a fuck (and still doesn't).

What the FUCK does that have to do with the logic and matter of the exchange above?
Meaning it's a fitting intro. No more, no less. In other words, since I *have* to explain obvious things, here is the 'chronology of the events' here:

- I write a brief intro presenting Fargo, Interplay, Wasteland, and Fallout.
- you start complaining that my intro doesn't talk about Fargo's various crimes against humanity
- I say that if such crimes need to be examined, they need to be examined in a separate article (i.e. an article about Fargo's mismanaging of Interplay)
- you graciously agree but state that that's why the intro shouldn't be in the review
- I question such wisdom pointing out that nothing I said is untrue
- you accuse me of shifting the goal posts

So, basically, you agreed that my intro was factual and that the mismanagement doesn't belong in the review. Since the intro is factual, why shouldn't it be in the review?

Which only means that youve read all those novels, stories and books of his with basically no understanding what are they really about. Which is beyond disgraceful.
Clearly.

If you are actually not capable of understanding these simple things... i see no point in discussing anything with you at all. whatever you say is either a complete banal stupid shit, or a fallacy you intentionally use to try and desperately hold your starting position - which is unattainable and indefensible under any real logical consideration. Proof above.
:bravo:
 

hiver

Guest
Ah, little Zombra... the ass licking moderator from W2 forums ... one of my favorite little turds from those sewers. Repeating the same idiotic shit he always does about how he doesnt want to read anything!!!




:brainfart:

What contortions...

Look dumbass, that shit you wrote about Interplay is just your version of that part of history. Not some universal truth.
The fuck but you are stupid...

you start complaining that my intro doesn't talk about Fargo's various crimes against humanity
cheap idiotic absurd strawman. again.

Brian may have mismanaged the company
There is no "may" about it. He made a big bet on fucking console actiony games. And it is the reason herve took over, imbecile.

Which is exactly what happened.
:lol:

So, basically, you agreed that my intro was factual and that the mismanagement doesn't belong in the review.
:lol: Look everyone - an imbecile asserting his own little facts... isnt it adorable? :lol:

Oh look! it is letting go of that post that is sinking and reaching for another one! Will he make it? So exciting!!!



you actually said:

If this topic is to be explored (by someone who actually gives a fuck), it should be done in a separate article, not a WL2 review.

That you think your fargo cock sucking version is true, - which is not correct at all and just another empty declaration - doesnt mean that such blatant crap should be a part of a W2 review at all. Just as you yourself said it above.
Especially since its just your idiotic proclamation that it is TRUE is what makes it true... which is only something a complete self delusional idiot would think.


So... you are just fucking stupid and you are a fallacious cheap idiot. Of course. Perfect fit.

applaud to that till your face goes blue.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Look dumbass, that shit you wrote... The fuck but you are stupid... cheap idiotic absurd strawman. again... imbecile... Look everyone - an imbecile asserting his own little facts... isnt it adorable? :lol: Especially since its just your idiotic proclamation... which is only something a complete self delusional idiot would think.

So... you are just fucking stupid and you are a fallacious cheap idiot.
Never change, hiver.

:salute:
 

hiver

Guest
It is you who isnt changing. Just another grab of another goal post.


You could have just said, "yeah ok, we dont really know the details of how all that went down and it should be a matter for separate discussion, not a w2 review"

And sticked to it.


- But you aint a daisy, youre no daisy at all.
 
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throwaway

Cipher
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
492
Some of the recent xenforo updates must have done a stellar job with the ignore function. I've been mostly baffled during this past week until visiting this thread.
 

hiver

Guest
well, lets repeat a huge part of my critiques that were completely skipped over while VD tried his best to weasel out and only disgraced himself even more.



Despite his proclamations on how to do reviews correctly:

In my opinion, subjective comments are best to be avoided as they don't bring any clarity.
Indeed.

The way I see it, a flaw is a very objective thing and most people would agree that it is indeed a flaw but might disagree on its affect (see the FO2 setting discussion) and how much it bothers them. RTwP vs TB is a very subjective thing where the main argument is "I enjoy TB" more. In my opinion, subjective comments are best to be avoided as they don't bring any clarity.
- a high-level design decisions, which is why I don't see the need to criticize them, only the way they were implemented. In other words, it's a developer's right to make any damn game he wants: RTwP, regen, high magic, emotional engagement (I couldn't sell my companions in Torment), etc, as long as he can do it right.
My review goes through every aspect of the game, describing them in a fairly impartial manner and listing all the flaws
hmmpff.. :lol:



well... lets see if that is true.

It’s a Philip K. Dick-esque version of post-apocalypse,

Poor Philip, to be insulted so much... and for what? So you can make your review seem smart? None of the Phillip novels and books had anything to do with retarded cheap trash that makes the gameplay of W2.
That can only be said by someone who had only the most superficial understanding of Phillip K Dick works, noticing only that it is "weird".

I’d say it’s this attention to detail, the well-presented moral dilemmas and the reactivity that make this world interesting and definitely worth exploring.

There is nothing even close to any kind of moral dilemma, only very cheap soap opera schlock that almost always includes some women either being killed or begging to be killed in incoherent small forced scripts they call "reactivity". The other examples of "reactivity" are some men getting killed for no fucking sane reason, or attacking you for even stupider forced idiotic reasons, - see Scotchmo and the grave of his wife, which is the only completely unmarked grave in that graveyard.
And thats the shit that is "worth exploring". Because there isnt anything else there.

The world ended in 1998. Eventually a small group of soldiers and survivalists formed a paramilitary outfit called the Desert Rangers and went on bringing order and frontier justice to nearby communities. In the first game, Snake Vargas, Hell Razor, Angela Deth and Thrasher stopped a pre-war AI computer from destroying what was left of humanity.
15 years later Vargas is a general, Thrasher is a cartographer, while Ace and Hell Razor are dead, killed by a mysterious new menace.

:lol: Robots/Ai that want to kill everyone.


You start the game by attending Ace’s funeral and getting your first orders from Vargas.

You start the game as a group of newbie Ranger recruits who are not even rangers yet, but Vargas sends you to do his secret super important mission, and then forces you to deal with either Ag Center or Higpool before you are even recognized as Rangers and allowed into the Ranger Citadel full of high level Rangers who apparently are of no use whatsoever for such a genius script. The funeral itself doesnt mean anything to players since they have no idea who that guy was so it has precisely zero impact on any new player and quite a lot of old ones who played W1.
Because it is the first sign of cheap emotional schlock which permeates the whole game.

So the first thing you experience in this game forces you to shut down any higher brain functions and just go along with stupid gamey shit because thats what those vidya gaems do and it is all excused because wasteland is craaaazy.

The second half takes place in California, and that’s where the game truly shines.

If only shit could shine.... it would be gold.

California, as anyone who played the game and isnt a complete liar knows, just resets the whole game back to the start and forces you to repeat the stupid gameplay of the first half, with addition of collecting stupid cat liter.

It starts with you appearing at the rangers forward...ahem... "base" where everyone of those high level rangers were killed by some ridiculous idiotic small doggies. All except two rangers. One that will serve as your exposition box and the other who had been gravely wounded and who is DYING which the game forces you to witness without you being able to do anything about any of it - because the cheap schlock is what this game is about. You literally cannot move anywhere until you go and watch that ranger DYING OH NOES AARGHHH IM DYYYINGGG! scene.
Then you are allowed to go around that stupid overblown and completely empty area, patching some stupid holes on the small walls, through which those small doggies come. Only when you close all the holes by clicking on them and kille all the stupid small dogs can you go outside of that "base" and fix some fucking radio towers AGAIN.

No need to worry about leaving that single exposition box NPC there. Nothing is ever going to happen there again.

If you (any player) think the game has any kind of dangerous post apocalyptic mutants or monsters - well ... the jokes on you. Enjoy killing frogs, wolves, small doggies, a few rabbits and badgers for the whole game whose trailers claims infinite diversity of enemies - SUCKER!


Your radio is your link to the world, your source of information, quests, and local flavor, as well as your feedback.
No, it has a small role to play. Usually mostly cosmetic and sometimes utterly retarded (check your drowning boy quest as example) Your source of information and feedback is your dialogue box which serves as your literal quest compass in a game where every fucking thing you need is highlighted with glowing lights over it or pointed out to you through the dialogue box. Not the gameplay - save in a few very rare locations that someone sneaked into the game.

There is nothing like leaving your current location before completing vital tasks and getting a big ‘fuck you’ radio shout-out.
Cheap crap since you have no reason to leave any location before handling your shit there. It only happens if you leave by mistake, and of course you will reload and wont do it again - because there is n reason to do it. Except roleplaying a moron.

The radio communications are fairly frequent and fully voiced, adding quite a lot to the atmosphere.
This they do, its true. But only on your first playthrough. If you play the game again - for which you have no reason except masochism - the effect is not that great again.

It also features a cover system, which adds a fair amount of strategic depth to battles.
Someone cant remember the difference between strategy and tactics anymore...

Funny since during the brain damaging prologue there is a character there who calls Vargas a superb strategist (and you never experience anything close to that, quite the opposite) - get this... the likes of general Patton.
They actually call general Patton a strategist!!

And thats an American company who even said they included some veterans in the design as advisers! :lol:







***

and get this, for this criticism i was just banned from Iron Towers forums, - because i insulted him just because he liked a different thing then i did?



For the record, you insulted me because you didn't like my review and kept insulting me until I simply stopped arguing. If you think it makes you a 'winnar', you're mistaken. I don't have a conviction that I'm right but I do believe that I have the *right* to like any damn game I want and write a review if I feel like it. If you don't like the review, you're free to disagree but not to insult me. Fortunately, I don't care about the insults. Other people do and they don't have the advantage of spending years on the Codex, so one more time, please tone it down and avoid insulting people because it is not necessary.
No, thats just what you like to tell yourself.
Your review is superficial crap from someone who didnt even play the game properly to review it. Its just garbage.

You never argued about anything, just kept repeating your stupid one liners and skipped over all points of the actual gameplay i noted.
Because you are not capable of defending your opinions by anything other then torrents of fallacies and just skipping over whatever you cannot answer.

If you at any point said that review is merely your opinion and none of it is actually true i wouldnt say a word.
But you claim its true... just like some degenerate bethesda drone repeating endlessly how some shit is great so great...


I just told you why i insulted you.
Just repeating your version of it again makes you look really stupid. And insulting.

I never insult anyone just for liking something else. I literally dont five a fuck what you or anyone else likes.
But for saying ridiculous stupid shit like your opinions about Philip K Dick writing, that are nothing more then ignorant ridiculous empty statements, you should be insulted. or actually - properly described.
Thats a bethesda level of retardation. You should literally kill yourself for that, just out of shame.

Not to mention laughable descriptions of a game you made and proclaimed awesome.
All argued against with counter examples and sufficient factual proofs. That you skip over and pretend you dont see.


Its just like these statements you make here.
You just repeat something is so because you say so, (because its easier for you), like a complete moron - while telling me i should argue reasonably? :lol:
can you even hear yourself you lowly cretin?


(so that you wouldn't feel that you HAVE to be a man or some shit and stand up to me
:lol: stand up to you? You think you are up? :lol:


No, you just want this to be kept under the rug. For your selfish comfort and public appearance.
While you insult me and try to force me to tolerate that pathetic shit that is insulting me.

Just like last two times, you cheap pathetic turd.
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
can you even hear yourself you lowly cretin?

Just like last two times, you cheap pathetic turd.


And there I thought the 2015 Hiver was in favour of "stopping the hatred" :(

Bester is actually what he accuses that imaginary girls or woman for. A walking piece of shit. A stupid devolved cretinous subhuman turd that doesnt want to understand anything nor cares for stopping the hatred but dishes out more himself
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
I made a mistake of asking Hiver to tone it down after he started insulting people left and right in the Witcher thread on our forums. I asked him privately in a PM so that he wouldn't feel the need to throw a fit and I hoped that we can have a reasonable conversation.

Can you please tone it down?

You tend to go overboard and just insult people for liking different things. I don't care when you do it to me but I'm hard to offend.

You think they're stupid? Prove that your position is stronger without using insults. Thank you in advance.
Instead of being reasonable, Hiver decided to be Hiver and said that he considers my accusation that he tends to go overboard and insult people "a very big insult." Then he inquired how fucking stupid do I have to be "to ask him for a third time to suck insults from other stupid posters?" He does have a point there. Asking Hiver to tone it down and hope that he might actually do that is the very definition of stupidity.

Hiver thought about it for a moment - why send one PM when two PMs will do the job even better - and decided to make it about me, explaining why he insulted me on the Codex (hint: I "deserved every little bit of it, because I'm not capable of arguing with proper arguments and because I overuse childish fallacies.")

Ever an optimist, I continued:

Why are you making this difficult? I asked you nicely and privately (so that you wouldn't feel that you HAVE to be a man or some shit and stand up to me). It's not a hard thing to do either.

For the record, you insulted me because you didn't like my review and kept insulting me until I simply stopped arguing. If you think it makes you a 'winnar', you're mistaken. I don't have a conviction that I'm right but I do believe that I have the *right* to like any damn game I want and write a review if I feel like it. If you don't like the review, you're free to disagree but not to insult me. Fortunately, I don't care about the insults. Other people do and they don't have the advantage of spending years on the Codex, so one more time, please tone it down and avoid insulting people because it is not necessary.
The rest is history.

Hiver, I didn't ban you because you insulted me. I banned you because it's become impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you. I don't know what the fuck happened to you but you were a good poster once who could present his position without calling people turds and cretins. It doesn't make you cool, it doesn't crash your 'enemies', it doesn't win arguments. It merely disrupts conversations and makes you impossible to deal with. Just think about it, ok?
 

hiver

Guest
well... what else there is to say to someone who spews such garbage and insults me first, and demands that i take insults from some forum cheap cretin who started insulting me?

you know very well that bester used those very words in his rant about someone he doesnt know at all (imaginary girl in his head) and my answer was returning it to him.
that doesnt mean im a masochist or a hippie Zorba.


- ah here we go again.

If VD would actually read his forums he would see that i was insulted first, by some cheap cretin who i wasnt even talking to.

And in VDs mind that doesnt exist. All he sees is my replies to that and he goes - "oh hiver tone it down" and when i dont agree with those demands in PM message he bans me - because i insulted him BECAUSE HE JUST LIKES SOMETHING ELSE.


Why dont you ask those other posters to tone it down?

You know, ones that actually reply with personal insults i am supposed to suck to make you feel better? The ones that actually START insulting others? That doesnt even register.



Hiver and said that he considers my accusation that he tends to go overboard and insult people "a very big insult."

No. I said that your accusation that i insult others simply because they like something i dont - is a very big insult.

You tend to go overboard and just insult people for liking different things.
Your own words.

But you just kept going repeating that same shit with your head lodged up your own ass. Thats why you do all those echoes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
I did not insult you and I did not demand anything. I asked you nicely and with respect.
 

hiver

Guest
You tend to go overboard and just insult people for liking different things.

Not to mention that you just skipped over actual critique of your review and now you are doing it again.
 

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