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Wasteland Hiver vs Vault Dweller & Wasteland 2 Cage Match Thread

hiver

Guest
Currently its about a couple of very, very butthurt idiots doing their best to troll all over it, to put it politely.

Its going to get back on track two days from now.
 
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This thread inspired me to make some fanfiction!
s682ux.jpg
 

hiver

Guest
I dont know what to tell you there... good effort, i guess?


There is no purpose in arguing with him anymore, he refuses to address any point beyond a simplified "because i say so" and he simply skips over whatever he cant explain or counteract,
plus there is nothing but really stupid strawmans in that head and assorted fallacies instead any sort of facts.

The review is bad, superficial and ultimately incorrect personal opinion based on Not Thinking about or Mentioning many aspects of the game, as has been established.


From my point of view it doesnt make sense to watch it all again, repeated in loops of nonsense.
I have better thing to waste my time on.
 
Unwanted
Douchebag! Shitposter
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simply skips over whatever he cant explain or counteract,

.

This. He could have defended the pertinence of his points in the scheme of a review.

I haven't seen many thoroughful positive impression of this game as the optimists are superficials and I can't get over buyer's remorse.
 

hiver

Guest
There is no sane way to defend any of those declaratory statements. If something is fundamental non-sense you cannot defend it by anything logical or reasonable.
 

Mexi

Dumbfuck!
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So... who's anti-Wasteland: 2 because I didn't like it either. Whoever is wins the argument!
 
Unwanted
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A good proportion of the Codex. The fact that VD made such a praising review makes me wonder if he either turned into a fanboy or is thinking that will help him court Fargo.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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A good proportion of the Codex.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9721

As I've explained before 813 people voted for WL2, 75% gave it 4/5 or 5/5. But sure, let's make it about what *you* think.

The fact that VD made such a praising review makes me wonder if he either turned into a fanboy or is thinking that will help him court Fargo.
I liked the game. I gave it a fair review. I don't need anything from Fargo. If I did, I would just ask him (since I'm not planning a Kickstarter, I can't even imagine what this something might be).
 

hiver

Guest
That review is "fair" only if we take "fair" to mean you expressing how much you liked it, without being able to come up with anything better then "because".

As was established during our argument, you base this opinion on willfully disregarding whole parts of the game and its narrative mission-quest structure design for braindead, and most of the game actual gameplay.
From fake choices and no consequences for it, or how basic and boring the combat is because of its mechanics or horrible, super stupid encounter non-design. - which will be "upgraded" by adding even more cover boxes, as we heard last, because that was the problem - not enough cover.
The idiocy of the main plot, the stupid circus like "factions" and the rest.


All you have is coming into some thread (that was moved out of your "review" - thread - so the review thread looks nice and clean for codex) days later and just stating that you wrote a fair review, which is so pathetic its despicable.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,038
1. Nothing was moved out of the review.
2. Yes, I liked the game, which is why I gave it a positive review. Isn't this how such things work?
3. I co-wrote the review with Eric Shumaker; I guess he too needed a favor from Fargo
4. I've explained various mechanics, cited my reservations, and made clear warnings:

If Fallout was about exploring the ethics of a post-apocalyptic world, Wasteland is all about having fun.
...
For instance, the main issue I have with it is that the skills are completely disconnected from the stats. The stats don’t determine the starting values of skills (which would have made the stats more useful), don’t give bonuses to skills and don’t play any role in non-combat activities. ... Another issue is that not all stats are created equally....
...
One of the issues I have with the game is random loot. Every time you open a trapped strongbox, a well-locked safe protected by a state-of-the-wasteland-art alarm system or dig out someone’s stash, invisible dice will be rolled, determining which pile of crap to reward you with this time. ... Basically, it’s a good example of a minor decision undermining the character system instead of strengthening it the way everything else does.
...
The combat system is fairly straightforward: attack until you run out of action points... Thus, your choices are limited to positioning and weapons.
...
Design-wise, the true power comes not from skills (they boost your accuracy and critical chance) but from better weapons and having enough hit points to match the ever-increasing damage coming your way.
...
The biggest problem is that the AI is often at odds with itself – enemies act as (suicidal) individuals rather than as a group. It cannot form cohesive strategies, like maintaining positions or targeting individuals, which means that the game needs to rely on increasingly larger numbers – more damage, more hit points, more enemies – instead of smarter strategies.
...
Unfortunately, the skill checks are fairly sporadic and stat checks are extremely rare.
...
Unfortunately, quite often, the quests feel like uncomplicated, post-apocalyptic versions of the TV show Cops. You're instructed to do something – save the AG Center, set up the radio, clean up the prison, save the L'eve Lupe Mines (nobody needed this pun FYI). ... In many cases, these well-worn formulas aren’t used in new or interesting ways, but merely occupy game space, giving you ‘stuff to do’. The contrast with truly exceptional areas couldn’t be starker.
...
Does it mean that you’re going to like it? It depends entirely on your expectations. If you expected a long overdue sequel or a game that allows you to chart your own course, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. If you expected a game like [Fallout / Jagged Alliance / ‘best game evar’], you might be disappointed.​

5. It's not a glowing review. It's a review where I explained that even though the game had numerous issues, I liked it because for me the good outweighed the bad. It's not good enough for you (nothing short of stomping the game into the mud will be good enough for you), so you've been foaming at the mouth ever since.

PS. It's just a game, bro. Let it go.
 

Haba

Harbinger of Decline
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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Rome wasn't built in one day and you are not born perfect a cRPG designer. Those things take time and with all Kickstarter RPGs my biggest hope is that the developers keep on improving on their strengths. None of those games have been irredeemable crap, after all.
 

hiver

Guest
1. Nothing was moved out of the review.
Who said something was moved from the review? I said that this thread posts were moved from your review thread in order to make it seem nice and your subjective opinions more clean.

2. Yes, I liked the game, which is why I gave it a positive review. Isn't this how such things work?
No it isnt. Your subjective views are not a review material.
Arent we criticizing the "game media" for that same kind of approach and hypocrisy?

If you are not able to objectively talk about features of the game - which is evident and you just admitted it - then your "review" of your personal fucking feelings should be written on your forums or your blog or facebook page.
At the very least it should say so at the start of the review. So everyone knows what garbage they are reading.

4. I've explained various mechanics, cited my reservations, and made clear warnings:
You explained shit, skipped over most of the game content and made lip service comments about a few issues that you worded in a way where they dont seem much of a problem, which your overall conclusions confirm.

If Fallout was about exploring the ethics of a post-apocalyptic world, Wasteland is all about having fun.​
Fun? What fucking fun?

Playing - that unimaginative waste of opportunity - is fun for you?

...
For instance, the main issue I have with it is that the skills are completely disconnected from the stats. The stats don’t determine the starting values of skills (which would have made the stats more useful), don’t give bonuses to skills and don’t play any role in non-combat activities. ... Another issue is that not all stats are created equally....
Stats not affecting skills was known years ago and it was never planned and its quite pointless to argue what kind of faults that brings or how it could do something better - hypothetically.
What we can see and discuss is what the game contains.

Not some theoretical hypothetical problem.

One of the issues I have with the game is random loot. Every time you open a trapped strongbox, a well-locked safe protected by a state-of-the-wasteland-art alarm system or dig out someone’s stash, invisible dice will be rolled, determining which pile of crap to reward you with this time. ... Basically, it’s a good example of a minor decision undermining the character system instead of strengthening it the way everything else does.
The way everything else does?

The combat system is fairly straightforward: attack until you run out of action points... Thus, your choices are limited to positioning and weapons.
...
Design-wise, the true power comes not from skills (they boost your accuracy and critical chance) but from better weapons and having enough hit points to match the ever-increasing damage coming your way.
...
The biggest problem is that the AI is often at odds with itself – enemies act as (suicidal) individuals rather than as a group. It cannot form cohesive strategies, like maintaining positions or targeting individuals, which means that the game needs to rely on increasingly larger numbers – more damage, more hit points, more enemies – instead of smarter strategies.

And you still call the game awesome and great, and combat something you "enjoyed".

Unfortunately, the skill checks are fairly sporadic and stat checks are extremely rare.
No shit?

Unfortunately, quite often, the quests feel like uncomplicated, post-apocalyptic versions of the TV show Cops. You're instructed to do something – save the AG Center, set up the radio, clean up the prison, save the L'eve Lupe Mines (nobody needed this pun FYI). ... In many cases, these well-worn formulas aren’t used in new or interesting ways, but merely occupy game space, giving you ‘stuff to do’. The contrast with truly exceptional areas couldn’t be starker.
You phrase this to make it seem as these mistakes were nothing but small, inconvenient but otherwise negligible details - contrasted with "truly exceptional areas" - which would be what the fuck areas, exactly?

You are the same guy who praised Highpool and its idiotic purposeless quests!
Never mentioned dozens and dozens and hundreds of examples of utter uncreative shit sprayed all over that serves as actual content of the game.

Does it mean that you’re going to like it? It depends entirely on your expectations. If you expected a long overdue sequel or a game that allows you to chart your own course, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
False. A blatant lie or another proof of how fucking stupid you are. Probably both at the same time.


If you expected a game like [Fallout / Jagged Alliance / ‘best game evar’], you might be disappointed.
Oh... so one can be only disappointed in this game that "lets you chart your own course" and possesses "truly exceptional areas" - none of which is ever explained or proven at all, and in fact does not exist in the game at all as anything actually real or relevant -

- IF one had unhealthy and unrealistic expectations!

:lol:

5. It's not a glowing review. It's a review where I explained that even though the game had numerous issues, I liked it because for me the good outweighed the bad.
It is incorrect and superficial and wholly ignorant review made by someone who played the game once (if at all) before writing this mewling sycophantic garbage and cannot even tell the difference between meanings of words Strategy and Tactics anymore.

It's not good enough for you (nothing short of stomping the game into the mud will be good enough for you),
Is this supposed to be some kind of argument you are making? Or just another stupid strawman-ad hominem because you actually have no relevant points to make about the game, except that you liked it because you liked it?

so you've been foaming at the mouth ever since.
Strawmaned ad hominem. The usual response when you have nothing of value to add. You resort to cheap strawmans and ad hominems.
Not to mention other fallacies which number in dozens in your posts.

PS. It's just a game, bro. Let it go.
Im not your bro,

But this last line really proves everything anyone needs to know about what a fucking cheap hypocrite you are.
Something to remember, anytime anyone sees any kind of post of yours trying to desperately criticize Fallout 2 (for being too funny, presumably) or Baldurs Gate 2 or any other game you ever criticized.
You have no system of value at all. You are the same as any fucking biodrone or bethesda/bioware/EA moron. What you like is great, what you dont isnt.
Thats how your brain works.

Thats why, a whole game practically based on non-logic and several lousy features, with practically no story, no good combat and hilariously bad quests doesnt bother you at all. You enjoyed it.



- now, dear audience, watch as VD performs his greatest trick - shifting goal posts! -
 
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hiver

Guest
Rome wasn't built in one day and you are not born perfect a cRPG designer. Those things take time and with all Kickstarter RPGs my biggest hope is that the developers keep on improving on their strengths. None of those games have been irredeemable crap, after all.
How in the hell is that supposed to happen when this garbage gets praises and seemingly broad acclaim and even gets to be a "game of the year" on some fucking "game media" site - and it even makes profit?
While those that criticize its problems and issues get screamed at by braindead but extremely emotionally engaged "fans" then banned and accused of "foaming at the mouth" and other such pathetically stupid ad hominem crap.

How?

Do you see any evidence of actually improving the game in any way in the next "big balance patch"?

Why the fuck would any of them even try to do anything different when hype can do all that for far less effort?
 

Haba

Harbinger of Decline
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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Why the fuck would any of them even try to do anything different when hype can do all that for far less effort?

If nothing else then professional pride should make sure of that. Game developers tend to be doing what they do because they sincerely like games. There are easier ways to just a make living, after all.

But in the end many things can and will go wrong, so all we can do is hope for the best.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
You think pretty pictures will help you?
Hiver, I don't know how to say it so that it wouldn't come as a complete shock to you.

You're nuts. I'm not sure if you need meds or just self-control or smoking some weed every now and then. You tend to go overboard and write these walls of text mixed with idiotic insults that nobody sane would want to reply to. Basically, you're like an angry person with a tourette syndrome. Fun to poke with a stick but not to have a conversation with.
 

hiver

Guest
Why the fuck would any of them even try to do anything different when hype can do all that for far less effort?
If nothing else then professional pride should make sure of that.
Mhm, evidence of that everyhwre we look.

Game developers tend to be doing what they do because they sincerely like games.
Game developers do not own companies that make the games, therefore they dont decide shit about their games, even when they have a higher position such as Project lead, which is a paid job - therefore they will listen to what their bosses are telling them, else they get fired.

There are easier ways to just a make living, after all.
There are many, many, much, much worse ways to make a few thousand dollars or euros a month then sitting in a chair in some nice offices and typing away and playing games.

And in fact those ways dont get you anything close to a few thousand of dollars/euros a month, and working conditions suck some serious donkey and other kinds of balls too.


But in the end many things can and will go wrong, so all we can do is hope for the best.
Et tu, Haba? et tu?
 

hiver

Guest
You think pretty pictures will help you?
Hiver, I don't know to say it so that it wouldn't come as a complete shock to you.

You're nuts. I'm not sure if you need meds or just self-control or smoking some weed every now and then. You tend to go overboard and write these walls of text mixed with idiotic insults that nobody sane would want to reply to. Basically, you're like an angry person with a tourette syndrome. Fun to poke with a stick but not to have a conversation with.

Well, thats just another of your cheap shit ad hominems you go with when you have nothing actual to say. You invent stupid shit to make yourself feel better. All the insults i tell you are there because that garbage you write deserves them.

That doesnt deserve a "conversation" because you are not capable of accepting anything that does not conform with your view that something is fun or not. Thats what subjective view such as yours achieves over objective views.
Actual facts, logic, reason and common sense are the enemies of such extreme emotional engagement.

Yet even so, i took the time and trouble to counteract and explain each point with actual facts and logic and common sense - which is pointless to you. You just skip over it and go for another goalpost.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
My dear Hiver,

First, I don't care about your stupid name-calling. It's simply childish and doesn't serve any purpose. Second, I've explained my position many times, but you don't care about my explanations. You aren't interested in debating anything, only in condemning. In your mind, the game is shit and I'm a piece of shit and that's all there's to it.

It's amusing that you call my position 'emotional engagement' when you're the one who's having an episode every time WL2 is mentioned.

Have yourself a great day!
 

hiver

Guest
-
Youve explained nothing, just skiped over and pretended you didnt see counterarguments.
I condemn you because you have proved yourself to be a cheap hypocrite several times over. Not because i feel like it.

In my mind the game is shit because it is actual shit, made out of several shitty features and complete failure of intellect and thought.

You see the game only through your extreme emotional engagement - and being willfully blind to all of its failures, in mechanics, in the story, in dialogues, in C&C, in quest design, in encounter design and overall in the art department.
While my hatred is based on seeing it for what it is. And thats something that should be hated and despised.

Not every emotion is the same and not every emotion is based on ignorance or intentionally shutting your brain down.

Thats another thing that you dont understand.

Fuck off.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
It appears that you're very angry about a vidya game. How does it make you feel?
 

hiver

Guest
It appears you dont understand what a "fuck off" means.

It does not mean "come back and try for another stupid ad hominem strawman to have the last word".
 
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