Incline Hollow Knight

[Blaine]

I'm surprised this game isn't more talked about here on the codex, it's incline and fantastic

There's not an awful lot to meaningfully discuss. Metroid/Castlevania-style games tend to be one long reel of story and gameplay spoilers, which most players will want to avoid; there aren't generally complex dialogue trees, meaningful C&C, or such like; and although character customization in Hollow Knight is above-average for the genre due to the high number and wide variety of charms, you don't have to create "builds" per se, nor is the customization as nuanced as a full-on cRPG. It's not going to generate dozens or hundreds of pages of build-based discussion as is the case in the Underrail thread, for example.

Metroidvanias are at their heart still relatively straightforward action platformers, but with enough added complexity, progression, freedom of exploration, and challenge to make them meatier experiences than their progenitors.

 

[Sore Loser]

.

 

[waterdeep]

Yeah, the game really gets better later on.

 

[Blaine]

Biggest fault (besides some bugs at launch)

The game's still full of bugs.

My favorite boss fight (excluding those I haven't yet experienced) in terms of design was Hornet.

It's true that a minority of bosses only have a couple of moves, but I don't think that instantly means it's a bad boss fight. Hell, the fluke boss really only has one move, but that was one Hell of a hectic fight. It is true though that more move variety is almost always more satisfying, if not necessarily intrinsically more challenging.

 

[Sore Loser]

.

 

[Leechmonger]

Good to know the game is better than it first appeared. Shame the beginning doesn't do it justice.

 

[Matalarata]

I loved the subtle hint to Lovecraft and the elder things. The little lore blurb about that strange lonely creature calling in the echoing halls, a clear nod to the Mountains of Madness, made me an happy nerd.

 

[Blaine]

There's also a reference to Berserk and Guts in there.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Writing is overall very good imo, and both sparse and *relevant* throughout. There's no filler "lore" that Roxor raged against; everything you read is about places you visit, characters you meet, events whose consequences you witness. Also lots of well executed storytelling via both the environment and the mechanics (one of my favourite touches were Siblings in the Abyss not giving any Soul meter when hit).

 

[Blaine]

Yep, it's all spot-on. There's the occasional minor typo here and there, but otherwise it's perfect.

Hollow Knight is Dark Souls-like in a number of ways: You happen across peculiar characters in the damnedest of places, who often have terse and/or morose things to say; you find odd trinkets in strange places; there are more than a few cryptic messages scattered around; when you die, you have to retrieve your shade to be made whole (one way or the other), and if you die again in the meantime you lose all of your Souls Geo; tough non-boss enemies not unlike Black and Silver Knights that require care and timing to bypass or defeat; and there's a general atmosphere of bleakness and desolation.

I do think the complaints about backtracking and running back to bosses are fairly valid, though. While I'm a huge fan of the Morrowind-style fast travel and the infrequent benches that force you to take risks, sometimes walking a long-ass way back to a stag station is just an exercise in boredom, and the runs back to some bosses are entirely too long even if you're very familiar with the area (if you aren't, it'll take even longer). Something like the Homeward Bone in would be nice, in controlled and limited availability such that you only want to use them if it's a really huge hike or you're in way over your head.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I think the game just needed another method of fast travel, or at least the tram pass not being located in such an unfriendly place. The main problem is the inability to get out of Deepnest or Ancient Basin easily - tram pass kinda helps by letting you use the shortcut from Kingdom's Edge, but you get it too late.

I think the only egregiously long run to a boss is for Soul Master. It helps that the truly difficult dream versions can basically be retried instantly, though.

 

[sullynathan]

The game doesn't run as well as I'd like plus I'm kinda lost

 

[Blaine]

I think the game just needed another method of fast travel, or at least the tram pass not being located in such an unfriendly place. The main problem is the inability to get out of Deepnest or Ancient Basin easily - tram pass kinda helps by letting you use the shortcut from Kingdom's Edge, but you get it too late.

I think the only egregiously long run to a boss is for Soul Master. It helps that the truly difficult dream versions can basically be retried instantly, though.

Thing is, you can always quit and reload. That will save the game and you'll be returned to the last bench used. I've started doing that while conducting my "deep explorations" of each zone now that I have all of the mobility upgrades. Since it's possible anyway, there might as well be an in-game way of doing it, but perhaps not quite so quickly or easily.

Fortunately, I beat Soul Master the first time around. Typically I either beat (non-hardmode version) bosses on the first try, but sometimes it takes me two tries. If I lose a third time, it generally means I'm strained, so I turn off the game and take a break. When I boot it up again fresh, I almost always handily trash whichever boss was giving me trouble.

The shortest boss run I've found was to the hardmode version of crystal beam dude, which is a good thing since I got rekt on the first try.

 

[Blaine]

qwerty123456

Spoiler

 

[hajro]

His right eye is the one thats blind though, fucking aussies cant do anything right

 

[Momock]

Something like the Homeward Bone in would be nice, in controlled and limited availability such that you only want to use them if it's a really huge hike or you're in way over your head.

Having to remember how to go back to the last bench is part of the experience ans it's why the map don't update until you sit on it. What is the point of this gimmick if you can just teleport yourself to the bench? I think it's fine the way it is.

 

[Blaine]

Having to remember how to go back to the last bench is part of the experience ans it's why the map don't update until you sit on it. What is the point of this gimmick if you can just teleport yourself to the bench? I think it's fine the way it is.

That doesn't make any sense. You can't even get map updates until you find Cornifer in a new area, benches or no benches. Once you locate him, finding your way back to a bench you've already discovered becomes trivial thanks to the initial map outlines, even before the map has been updated. Personally, I've never bothered to backtrack to a previous bench in order to update my map. I just continue onward until I find a new bench.

It's indeed a nice feature that requires you to find your own way through new segments, but I've certainly never gotten lost due to it. Map updates are most useful to point out pathways you've missed the first time through an area, and to orientate yourself over long distances once the map is mostly complete.

You're talking to the king of environmental challenge. I love it. What we're talking about here though is when you know exactly where to go, but have to trudge a long distance through familiar, mapped territory to get there.

 

[Momock]

I get your point (and I agree with your post in general). But the idea of teletransportation still triggers me. I feel like it will broke more things than it will repair, and for something that isn't so bad to endure. I like to feel the distances between the places, it makes the world more "believable" and this way I try to plan my movements and actions to save time. With TP all this disapears. Also you'll never had an incentive to traverse again the first zone for example, and you'll miss it's transformation, for example (it was great by the way, I wish more frequently traversed zones changed with time).

So yeah, it's a pain sometimes but overall it's better this way.

 

[Matalarata]

What this game really needs is a system of custom map markers. I know I can draw my own notes and maps like ye aulde times, but when I was playing stone prophet and ultima underworld I was a teenager. Nowadays I hardly get a couple hours twice a week to play, good luck remembering where that patch of loose ground was, and drawing maps and taking notes is nice but burns through my free time

 

[Blaine]

I get your point (and I agree with your post in general). But the idea of teletransportation still triggers me. I feel like it will broke more things than it will repair, and for something that isn't so bad to endure. I like to feel the distances between the places, it makes the world more "believable" and this way I try to plan my movements and actions to save time. With TP all this disapears. Also you'll never had an incentive to traverse again the first zone for example, and you'll miss it's transformation, for example (it was great by the way, I wish more frequently traversed zones changed with time).

So yeah, it's a pain sometimes but overall it's better this way.

Heh, I've been on both sides of this immersion vs. convenience argument now, with Underrail specifically. For me I suppose the difference is that Hollow Knight is an action game at its core.

Anyway, you're incorrect about Infected Crossroads. There are two reasons to return (grubs and Temple of the Black Egg) which will draw the player's attention to it; and two reasons to explore (curiosity, complete the Hunter's Journal).

 

[Momock]

Matalarata: Remembering where the things are is also part of the fun, but nothing stops you from writing it on paper. So yes, they should allow the player to write/draw directly on the in-game map (and make the map less detailed to compensate, maybe?).

 

[Blaine]

The map's already minimal in detail. Most rooms are shown as simple boxes.

Seriously dude, there's some very nice environmental complexity in this game, but these are minor convenience features we're talking about here. An in-game method of bench travel is certainly debatable, but map notes aren't. It's pretty much always incline to allow in-game notes, because taking notes is never considered cheating, and it's nicer to have a method of doing so built into the game. The game already sells you pins that mark the locations of every bench, shop, hot springs, tram, station, etc. As with a lot of cross-platform console games, text entry features are omitted.

As-is, I just alt-tab and write notes like this, accomplishing the exact same thing (these are a bit outdated):

False Knight 2 in Westish Forgotten Crossroads
Soul Master 2 in Soul Sanctum
Arena halfway up shaft above King's Station
Queen's flower quest (below Resting Place)
Tuk (Rancid Egg) upper-right corner Waterways
Door to Grove middle-bottom of city homes west of King's Station

Dreamer and Hornet in Hive/SE Kingdom's Edge

Oh my goodness, I'm a cheater!

Edit: Also, I've been doing without the compass for a long while. That's a nice memory exercise.

 

[Jasede]

Also try Dead Cells.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Also try Dead Cells.

Doesn't that have procedurally generated levels?

 

[Blaine]

Well, I'm getting pretty near the end. I

Spoiler

have all the masks (I think? I have 9, but there's that Mask Painter NPC I haven't figured out yet), definitely have all the Soul Orbs, have the Pure Nail, all of the techniques, all but a few charms, and all nail techniques/spells + upgrades except the upgrade for that upward soul blast I never use, and seem to be missing one grub but I think I know where it is. I've saved almost all of the hardest fights for last: Failed Champion, Soul Tyrant, the final Colosseum challenge, presumably the Hunter if I completely fill the Journal, the Watcher Knights, and whatever else lies in wait at the extreme endgame. I got rekt hard when initially attempting all of the aforementioned bosses.

Spoiler

Colosseum challenges, man... fucking Hell.

They're maximum overfrisky and they go on absolutely forever. I felt like Neo in fucking The Matrix after completing just the second one.

Certain charm combos are ez-cheez. With Joni's, Stalwart, and Quick Nail or Fragile Strength, I've bulldozed my way through a few boss fights just by facetanking and spamming like a maniac, and came out with 6+ masks remaining. I've regretted doing it and want to repeat them the "normal" way, but alas. No more of that.

I found a super-secret big-ass treasure and my Geo is getting up toward 20k liquid, to say nothing of all the seals and shit I've still got on me, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing left to spend it on except for that one consumable and then repairs for those other things.