Editorial How Morrowind changed the world

[Grantus]

According to the very high standards set by the posters here, there are maybe three computer RPGs that can be considered non-linear. And none released since, say, 1998 or so.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Arcanum came out in 2001.

 

[Grantus]

Arcanum came out in 2001.

I was being slightly facetious about the timeframe, but you've kind of proved my point.

If we're going to discount games like Morrowind because they're too linear, we RPG fans are going to be sitting around and waiting a long time to play a "good" RPG.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

If we're going to discount games like Morrowind because they're too linear, we RPG fans are going to be sitting around and waiting a long time to play a "good" RPG.

That's why this site exists. To be the light beacon that will direct us all to good RPGs that come out!... And to suffer the endless drags of the occasional moderator on an attention whoring power trip.

Welcome to the Codex, by the way.

 

[Jed]

Sorry, we gave all our FREE RIDES to Troika. There's none left for Bethesda... they'll have to make a game that's actually non-linear before we concede ground on the issue.

 

[Saran]

Grantus: I think we have a similar view. But either way, ths is just one of those pointless arguments that never get agreement and lead to pointless arguments about nothing in particular. In fact, if I had been wise, I shouldn't have even participated.
Welcome to the Codex! :wink:

Hehe, same as myself, whats the point, while i love the game i dont really give a shit about people slagging it off, if its not your cup of tea, good for you.

The only time i get aggravated is when i see Llamagod shit on oblivion every time its mentioned.

YOU THINK ITS GOING TO SUCK, WE GET IT, THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD GETS IT!

 

[Atrokkus]

Love or hate or don't give a damn about Morrowind - is your choice, no need in arguing about that.

I liked Morrowind for a while, until i got bored just before entering the red mountain or whatever it's called.
The game was pretty fun early on: ya know, running around in the wilderness, exploring the world, looking at the shiny water, collecting items, having your own house... and that's all.
No roleplaying whatsoever. Story? Well, there is one, and i guess those who played earlier games of the series will like it, but i'm not one of them, so it didn't touch me at all.

So, I can't say I hate Morrowind.
I'm just saying that Morrowind is not RPG
It's a munchkin's oddysey with some minor RPG elements. Or an adventure, perhaps. But certainly not RPG.

Reasons:
1. Almost all of the NPCs are just plastic dummies with pretty faces (if you install the right plugins, that is)
2. NO dialogs whatsoever. There are hyper-text documents attached to aforementioned dummies. Of course, this way the information is easy to obtain, you just click the right keyword, and get everything you need. But hey: the same principle applies to a book or a journal.
RPG dialogs must be as close to real life conversations as possible, with jokes, threats, midunderstanding (sometimes resulting in violence) and lots of other things. The dialog options must really mean something, must be different, so that you could really think before choosing one, as the choice may have some unpredictable repercussions.

3. The gameworld, albeit being large and pretty, is dead to the core. NP...erm dummies stand still, no interaction between them, no random fights, no nothing. Gothic's world was much more alive, even though it had a pretty mediocre scripts/AI.

4. Freedom/non-linearity is geographic only. Of course, you can go wherever you want, hoiwever you please, but that' s all. You can't influence the world around in many different ways, no. You can't do something and then see the outcome.
Fallout had a ton more freedom, although its geography was smaller. There you could really affect the world either just by words or brutal force, and could see the effect either in the end of the game, or right after you did it. And the dialog options really affected NPC's reaction and many other factors, which, ultimately, may change the whole gameworld.

5. Dumb, munchkin approach to the guild/fraction system. Guild in Morr is just another check in the list of kewl stuff of the uber-character. It's so fucking funny to see a char with a rank of guildmaster in a dozen of totally different guilds, although you've only been there several times, just to get some quests, do them, receive the uber-rank, and go away, never to return.
In BG2, for instance, the guildsystem was much better, although it wasn't actually the guilds, but more like <insert class>-fortresses. But it was actually interesting and even offered a replay value increment, because each class had a very different fortress/guild, which you could always call your home, because you really affected its inhabitants and saw the consequences.
Gothic also had a much better approach. Guilds being the definition of your class, and were therefore very different.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

If Diablo can be classified as an RPG, than Morrowind most certainly can too.

 

[Claw]

In fact, many don't even offer different ways to finish the main quest. If MW has that "fatal flaw," so do scores of other RPGs.

Thus Fallout rules.

I'm not arguing that Morrowind is a perfect game by any means.

And I'm not arguing that it totally sucks, but it keeps being overglorified. It's hard not to sound negative in light of overbearing praise.

The combat is lacking, but then, that makes Morrowind no worse than 90 percent of the computer RPGs out there. (And you can download combat improvement mods that aren't bad.)

Yes, it does. And I don't think it speaks in a game's favour that fans create so many mods adressing real or percieved flaws in gameplay, visual quality or atmosphere.

And I can't seem to get beyond the weird control setup long enough to enjoy Gothic 2. (Plus, I get killed the first time a rat attacks me. Oh well.)

What's weird about WASD? The key setup is largely standard, except the ability to choose between three attacks with either the movement keys or by mapping a key to each attack.
If you were killed by a rat, you suck. There is no other explanation.

I'd argue that 3D graphics are more engaging than 2D graphics. That's my only point, not that MW was god's gift to gaming.

I'd argue that Ultima Underwold is superior to Morrowind, which really has only shiny water going for it.

 

[Atrokkus]

So, i hope you agree that Morrowind is not a pure RPG.

If not, try reading my post once more.

 

[Grantus]

Yes, it does. And I don't think it speaks in a game's favour that fans create so many mods adressing real or percieved flaws in gameplay, visual quality or atmosphere.

Hmmm, sounds like you're making an argument against MW and other games encouraging mods. I can't imagine how mods are a bad thing, especially since some of the most wildly popular games on the planet are heavily modded.

What's weird about WASD? The key setup is largely standard, except the ability to choose between three attacks with either the movement keys or by mapping a key to each attack.
If you were killed by a rat, you suck. There is no other explanation.

Well, gee, I'm not exactly the first person to complain about Gothic's key mapping, am I? It's not the WASD that's the problem, it's the other stuff. I also prefer games where I can create my own character, but that's different issue with Gothic.

As for getting killed in Gothic, it is a bit discouraging to have your ass handed to you the first time you encounter a creature. Does that mean I suck? Perhaps, but if I can kill the first wolf or rat or goblin or whatever after three or four tries, and there are other things I find discouraging about the game, I tend to move on.

 

[Drakron]

As we are at it, Bloodlines is non linear since there is a branching line to the end and was released last year.

Problem with Morrowind is there was no choice, everything that was done was linear and there was not even the illusion of choice The player is simply lead by the storyline without being given the chance to decide for his/her own what they wanted to do.

Adding the completly lack of a interesting story at start (it gets better at the middle) I find no suprise most people grow bored and simply quit.

 

[Claw]

Hmmm, sounds like you're making an argument against MW and other games encouraging mods.

Hmm, sounds like you forgot to train reading comprehension skills. Unreal Tournament encouraged modding and it was great, especially since the mods added something completely new rather than trying to fix flaws in the original game.

Well, gee, I'm not exactly the first person to complain about Gothic's key mapping, am I?

Besides that fact that Gothic 2 had different key mapping, noone I talked to was intellectually capable of justifying or specifying this complaint. I've heard alot of complaints that attest their makers' stupidity however, including blantantly wrong statements about how the controls work.
Someone called Gothic's controls "impossible" which is contradicted by ever player who finished Gothic and proved that they are not, in fact, impossible.
So until I see evidence to the contrary I blame the incompetence of the players. Or not-players, as it were.

It's not the WASD that's the problem, it's the other stuff.

Now that's a good argument if I ever heard one. The other stuff.

As for getting killed in Gothic, it is a bit discouraging to have your ass handed to you the first time you encounter a creature.

Does that mean I suck? Perhaps, but if I can kill the first wolf or rat or goblin or whatever after three or four tries, and there are other things I find discouraging about the game, I tend to move on.

A rat kicked your ass because you were overconfident and didn't notice that your character's combat skills were really, really, bad. I am sorry, I forgot that you are used to dog-sized rats being easy victims.
I would grant you one death in your very first fight, simply because you need to get the feel for the combat. But three or four times? How did you manage that? I mean... you did practice the moves in advance, right? You make it sound like you ran into combat without a clue what to do.

Funny how you say "if I can kill the (...) after three of four tries (...) I tend to move on." which makes it sound like you shouldn't have been able to.

If you think a specific aspect of Gothic was bad, you should be able to give a better reason than "Gee, I am not the first to whine" and when you start mentioning "other" reasons why you didn't like the game, which have nothing to do with the supposed flaw in the game discussed, it sounds like you just want to make the game look bad.
Or did you just want to say that there is a three-headed monkey behind me?

 

[Shagnak]

Where is the love?

 

[Shevek]

Its a bit of a shame that MW claims to be the lord of all things nonlinear considering even old console games had more nonlinearity. Phantasy Star 3 and Tactics Ogre come to mind as games with branching story paths. Then, when you factor in other PC titles...

 

[Atrokkus]

Alright, so now we're talking about combat system.
Okay, here it goes:

I don't like combat in Morr.
I didn't like the fact that they used a very skill-dependent combat system, at the same time implementing this first-person viewpoint and WASD.
Result: dumbfuckingly click your enemies to death.
So they should have either went pure classic system with TB or pseudoTB with free camera, or did something more logical, as, for instance, in Gothic.
Gothic had a much better combat system, that's obvious. It was quite simple, skill-wise, but was logical and effective, and maintained balance between skill-based and player reflex-based combat. That way, if your character had shitty sword skills, then no matter how quick are your hands and reflexes, you will get fucked by serious opponent.
By the way, Bethesda learned from their errors, and now in Oblivion they will implement pretty much the same system as Gothic used, but improved. I'm glad that they reformed.

Now, magic.
Magic is a little better, and even interesting at times, although still primitive compared to that of DnD games, that's obvious. Well, at least it was better than in Gothic.

There are three BIG issues, however:
1. Mana pool is so atrophied. Even with Atronach, it's not enough for a pure mage to stand up against multiple opponents in a lasting battle.
2. And as a result, pure mages are virtually non-existant in Morrowind.
The game is ruled by battle mages, which is clearly the best class out there. Pure magic is just so broken, you can't really get far without the use of a sword.
3. Enchantment system. No, it's interesting and cool, i know. But just the fact that even a dumb orcish berserker who has enough money can just order a good enchantment at some magic shoppe and he'll become a battle mage is fucking the whole system!
The same goes with battle mages: they draw their mage powers not from their magical talents, but from some fucking shiny pieces of metal!

 

[Greatatlantic]

I'm going to post my interpretation of Morrowind, it agrees some points people made.

Some games are fascinating works of Art which drag you into their world and force you to play until you beat them, and then play them again to experience all the world has to offer. Morrowind is NOT such a game. It's a game you can play and never get excitted about playing, but does offer some enjoyment. Its sort of the Solitaire of the RPG community, something to play to kill time when you really don't have anything else on the table. The Main quest is actually pretty stupid, so beating it really isn't nesecarry. Fortunately, the main quest might only take up 10-15% of what the game offers. The rest is quests for guilds, or just exploring the world. Not get caught up in schemantics, I'd same the game is pretty non-linear, just not at all interactive.

It is my hope for the future games they make the combat more interesting, and allow you to move faster. That slow crawl of a walk of Morrowind, unless you boosted your speed and ran, can drive me crazy.

 

[LlamaGod]

You had no choices or anything in morrowind, it is linear. The Big Bad Man In the Mountain even offers for you to join him, but you cant, BECAUSE YOU WILL SEVERE THE THREADS OF PROPHECY or some bullshit.

Every quest is straight A to B progression, and the story quests are double that. The storyline is broken into like 20 linear quests that go from each other, no variance or anything.

It doesnt matter who you are, either. You can join all the guilds and raise your stats and do everything, and everything is the same for each character.

It's linear, it doesnt matter that you can run around the world and look at pissed off birds. When you actually are doing something in the game, it's A-to-B linearity.

 

[Seven]

There are so many things that I'd like to respond to in this thread, but I lack the time and the motivation, so I'll just say this:

I recently started replaying FO and FO2, and truth be told there's nothing in the market that's comparable (graphics aside of course). To be quite honest and to respond to the reviewer "teh shinny" is not good, and it's largely irrelevant when discussing RPGs. Game mechanics, linearity, choice and all that other stuff is what matters. All I know is that I haven’t played a commercial RPG in a long time (last thing I picked up was KOTOR II and before that I don’t remember trying anything that was moderately tolerable). RPG gaming has become really stagnant. No worlds to explore, no stories being told or I don’t have the opportunity to meaningfully impact the game world (unless I’m “The One”, in which case I save it and then every one goes about their business), and worst of all there’s no greyness.

 

[Stark]

Morrowind is NOT such a game. It's a game you can play and never get excitted about playing, but does offer some enjoyment. Its sort of the Solitaire of the RPG community, something to play to kill time when you really don't have anything else on the table.

i agree totally. I would add that its design draw a parallel to GTA model. Player presented with plenty to do, huge place to explore, with little urgency to any single mission. Every mission can be completed relatively quickly with minimal brainwork invovled. it is a successful model for console players.

I think people here bashed it too harshly. the sheer amount of art work/content that went into it is pretty impressive. by the time I got bored and stopped playing i had played 40 hours or so. A pretty good investment if you ask me.

 

[chaedwards]

You know what is funny? In the RPGCodex picks of 2002, 3 out of the 4 staffers (Calis, Mistress and Exitium (whoever he is)) picked Morrowind as one of their games of 2002.

Saint was the honourable exception.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Where is the love?

In my pants.

 

[kris]

Morrowind have in fact changed the world.

Today I met some people, not only where they ugly, they had nothing of interest to say and they repeated themself over and over. In fact, I also think they still have not moved from where I last saw them.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

the sheer amount of art work/content that went into it is pretty impressive.

I agree, it really is laudable that so much content went into artwork and into the background detail of the gameworld. Its just unfortunate that so much work didn't really had a more interesting gameplay supporting it. Morrowind just came off as a nice world to visit, but not to return to or live in.

 

[Grantus]

It's not the WASD that's the problem, it's the other stuff.

Hmmm, sounds like you're making an argument against MW and other games encouraging mods.

Hmm, sounds like you forgot to train reading comprehension skills. Unreal Tournament encouraged modding and it was great, especially since the mods added something completely new rather than trying to fix flaws in the original game.

My reading comprehension skills are just fine, thank you. Your logic keeps changing, however. On one hand, modding is bad because it's making up for perceived problems with the game. But wait, it's ok when you do a complete conversion of the game, because changing the game completely isn't about fixing problems in the game? No, it's just throwing out the old game lock, stock and barrel.

Yes, Unreal has many complete conversions, it also has a number of tweaks to the game itself. Does that in itself prove its a bad game? If you think so, that's pretty twisted logic.

Besides that fact that Gothic 2 had different key mapping, noone I talked to was intellectually capable of justifying or specifying this complaint. I've heard alot of complaints that attest their makers' stupidity however, including blantantly wrong statements about how the controls work.
Someone called Gothic's controls "impossible" which is contradicted by ever player who finished Gothic and proved that they are not, in fact, impossible.
So until I see evidence to the contrary I blame the incompetence of the players. Or not-players, as it were.

It's not the WASD that's the problem, it's the other stuff.

A rat kicked your ass because you were overconfident and didn't notice that your character's combat skills were really, really, bad. I am sorry, I forgot that you are used to dog-sized rats being easy victims.
I would grant you one death in your very first fight, simply because you need to get the feel for the combat. But three or four times? How did you manage that? I mean... you did practice the moves in advance, right? You make it sound like you ran into combat without a clue what to do.

Funny how you say "if I can kill the (...) after three of four tries (...) I tend to move on." which makes it sound like you shouldn't have been able to.

In the context of my post, I think you'll see that when I say "I tend to move on" I mean to another game, not to the next area in Gothic.

As for getting killed a lot, in Gothic 2, I leave the castle, walk down the path a ways and have a wolf attack me. I've pretty much been unable to get beyond the wolf. Maybe I suck as an RPG player and should have my license revoked. Perhaps, though, it's not just a problem with my skills, but also a problem with the interface.

If you think a specific aspect of Gothic was bad, you should be able to give a better reason than "Gee, I am not the first to whine" and when you start mentioning "other" reasons why you didn't like the game, which have nothing to do with the supposed flaw in the game discussed, it sounds like you just want to make the game look bad.
Or did you just want to say that there is a three-headed monkey behind me?

Hey, I have no idea what kinds of things you keep in the room with you.

Do I want to make Gothic look bad? No, in fact, I really want to like Gothic. I continue to have Gothic 2 installed on my computer. But I haven't yet been able to have fun with it. My main point is that compared to Morrowind, I seem to keep coming back to Morrowind, while I only seem to get frustrated with Gothic 2.

This part of the discussion started with someone recommending Gothic to me instead of Morrowind. And I said, look, I've played them both, and I prefer Morrowind. If you prefer Gothic, good for you. We don't have to insult each other about it.