Editorial How Morrowind changed the world

[Grantus]

By the time I figure out how to arm a weapon in Gothic 2, I'm dead. Maybe that makes me incompetent, but I don't seem to have problems with controls in most other games I play.

What? The principle is the same as in Morrowind: You first activate the weapon in your inventory, and then you hit the "enter combat mode" key. That's exactly how it works in Morrowind!

What did you do, stroll outside without an active weapon? Were you surprised that opening the inventory didn't pause the game? Was it too difficult to hit the right key to enter combat mode? WTF?

Hmmm, Claw makes it sound like I'm the only "moron" who's found Gothic 2's combat a bit difficult. As we all know, that's certainly not the case. WTF is the deal with all the attitude?

Gamespot: "The combat is about as clunky as that of the first game ... The clunky setup isn't conducive to dodging effectively while fighting, so unless you completely outclass your enemies, you'll often find the only way to effectively do battle with them (and stand a chance) is to get them stuck on an object in the environment, since Gothic II's pathfinding is sometimes problematic. You might have been able to do battle with your enemies a bit better if you could quickly swap weapons or use healing spells or potions with hotkeys, but you can't do either."

Worthplaying: "Gothic 2 can be a very frustrating game, both in terms of difficulty and controlling your character ... Combat takes some getting used to though, since it requires three key-presses to initiate. When you see an opponent, first you press the spacebar to enter combat mode, then you press the CRTL key to focus on your opponent while simultaneously pressing the arrow keys to perform combat moves. It's not easy to swap out and cast the spells you need ..."

Gamespy: "Combat takes place in real-time, and that adds another layer of difficulty. The action doesn't stop when you access your inventory menu, so the enemy just keeps on attacking while you frantically try to select and use a much-needed item (this is made even more difficult by the bizarre lack of a mouse cursor; you have to select items with the arrow keys). You can assign hotkeys to healing scrolls and spells, but not to potions, so if your character is a fighter with no spells and little mana to spend using scrolls, it's essentially impossible to heal your character during a fight ... The upshot is that you have little choice when a battle turns ugly but to run for your life and hope the enemy isn't very fast or determined; otherwise, you'd better have a recent save to fall back to. You end up avoiding any fight you're not sure you can win, which takes some of the excitement out of the game and further slows the process of building your character."

 

[Sol Invictus]

Gothic and Gothic 2 had an incredibly clumsy combat scheme. The former much more so than the latter. I'm sorry we're not all as l33t with the m4d g0th1c sk1llz, Claw.

 

[Rat Keeng]

I vsited a retirement home recently and it was EXACTLY like that!

Really? Did they get stuck in suspended bits of rope as well? One can really get tangled in them inanimate rope railings.


I always thought it was weird, that slugging a lich for 100 damage with a daedric battle hammer, gives you the same amount of experience, as gently padding a mudcrab with a broken club for 1 damage does, regardless of your level. And as for being non-linear, i think it's a testament to MW's linearity, that you can ponce about for hundreds of hours, and become a near-invincible demi-god who kills golden saints by blinking, and yet you still have to piss about on petty errands for hours to advance the main quest. It'd be sweet if you could deny the whole Nervar bullshit and still complete the main quest in some form, but then, that's yet another proof of MW being linear.

 

[Elwro]

I really don't understand the fact that the "interface is clumsy" comment seems to appear so frequently on the foreign net. I say "foreign", because I've never seen such a comment on Polish boards and the series is extremely popular here.
You can remap the keys. You can change the inventory so that it takes the whole screen. You can even have hotkeys for in-combat potion sipping if you're lame. The game is very customizable, if you read the readme file. But on the other hand, it's one of the rare type of games in which combat may actually be challenging. I think that's the reason people complain.
I usually suck at games demanding manual skills and I still managed to complete both Gothics.

 

[Shagnak]

I vsited a retirement home recently and it was EXACTLY like that!

Really? Did they get stuck in suspended bits of rope as well? One can really get tangled in them inanimate rope railings.

You know, I really must try that. I think I have some rope lying around somewhere...

 

[Elwro]

It'd be sweet if you could deny the whole Nerevar bullshit and still complete the main quest in some form, but then, that's yet another proof of MW being linear.

SPOILER IF ANYONE STILL CARES

Well, you can at least kill Vivec, so he doesn't teach you about Wraithguard and you have to learn about it in another way, involving the dwarf from the Corprusarium. The process is described in detail here.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yep, that's nonlinearity right there. Game over folks.

 

[Elwro]

Yep, that's nonlinearity right there. Game over folks.

I never said Morrowind was nonlinear.

 

[Claw]

Hmmm, Claw makes it sound like I'm the only "moron" who's found Gothic 2's combat a bit difficult.

No, I don't. In fact, I pointed out that there are other morons who found Gothic 2's combat difficult. Kudos for avoiding to answer to my post, too.

What, you expect me to take a review serious that claims you have to press the CTRL key to attack?
And that is ignoring (hah! like you didn't before) the fact that there is an alternative control sheme that works differently.
RTFM, morons.

Gothic and Gothic 2 had an incredibly clumsy combat scheme. The former much more so than the latter.

I know that. Thanks for missing the point, it'd not be the same if you wouldn't.

 

[Grantus]

Hmmm, Claw makes it sound like I'm the only "moron" who's found Gothic 2's combat a bit difficult.

No, I don't. In fact, I pointed out that there are other morons who found Gothic 2's combat difficult. Kudos for avoiding to answer to my post, too.

What, you expect me to take a review serious that claims you have to press the CTRL key to attack?
And that is ignoring (hah! like you didn't before) the fact that there is an alternative control sheme that works differently.
RTFM, morons.

Let's put aside the fact that the fucking manuel is fucking terrible. And that the alternative control scheme isn't described in the manuel.

And that the print describing the controls layout in the manuel I have is tiny and on a grey background. I have to squint and pause the game to read it.

You've asked me what specific problems I had with Gothic 2's controls. I've quoted you three fairly popular gaming sites complaining about Gothic 2's combat. You've suggested there are no rational reasons for disliking Gothic 2's combat or key layouts and I've quoted you three gaming authorities that have problems with Gothic 2's combat scheme.

And you're complaining about me not answering your post as if I owe you the answer you want. WTF?

 

[Elwro]

Now, seriously, "popular gaming sites'" reviewers that complain that the game doesn't pause when they want to peruse their inventory to find the much-needed item during combat are not the best sources of information.

 

[Ismaul]

Just to mention, Gothic obviously had something more than Morrowind. The result: Oblivion is borrowing Gothic's graphic style, the involving dialogue style, the alive world, the collision-based combat, etc... Seems like the devs agree with us.

Gothic's combat is involving :shock:. It's not mindless clicking. When you are facing an orc and you know that in two blows you're dead, while you have to hit him six times to kill him, you have to think about how you fight. You actually have to do a bit of swordfighting there, blocking blows and dodging others. The orc does the same, so you have to find a moment where he is vulnerable to hit him. Sure beats the hell out of Morrowind's choose the best attack and keep on clicking, even if you're 2 meters away from the enemy and your dagger isn't even touching him.

Obviously, a more complex and involving combat system requires slightly more complex controls. Logical, no? I mean, sure it's a bit harder than repeatedly slamming your big mouse button hoping that the numbers will be in your favor. You have to press one directional button and the attack button at once to make sure you attack, and you have two hands to do it . Plus, you can remap the controls any way you wish. Really, it's that hard?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yep, that's nonlinearity right there. Game over folks.

Ignoring the fact that killing Vivec pops up that "You've messed up!" box that always made me reload instantly - lest, God forbid, I get stuck in a game I couldn't complete - that's a very, very minor step towards "non-linearity". You still need to complete the other quests to get Keening and Sunder and the game still ends the same way. At best it amounts to a very difficult to accomplish short-cut as killing Vivec is no easy feat. It's more akin to FO2's trick of walking down, grabbing the Power Armour, getting into the Tanker and finishing the game as a level 1 character. It's not enough to in and of itself make the game "non-linear" (I've also considered FO2 fairly linear itself too by the way).

It's also a step which incidentally, Bethesda added in "just in case someone fucked up" rather than out of any desire to make the game more diverse. While the reasoning is irrelevant, that reason does make itself clear in the entirety of the game's quests. All of which boil down to a very linear "you must do this and only this" path. Certainly the side-quests I tried (before I got bored of being a FedEx Courier) all lacked multiple ways of accomplishing them (in particular one where I had to get money from someone and found I couldn't pay for it myself on their behalf or do anything outside of killing them because they can't pay). Hell, you can't even do the old Fallout trick of killing everyone in town without having most of them (well, at least the guards anyway) respawn on you the next time you visit.

Addressing a few points in the rest of the thread:

• I enjoyed Morrowind "for what it is".
• It's true that there have been very few truly non-linear games. It's disappointing.
• It's true that there have been very few quality RPGs. That's also disappointing.
• The Codex is all about that hard-core niche.

 

[Jung]

Morrowind is like a big bowl of icecream with a turd at the bottom. You might enjoy the icecream for a while until you realize "Hey this is a turd!" ...unless you are into turds or something...

 

[Jinxed]

]There are no difficulty levels, the wilderness is not divided into "noob areas" "ubar monster areas" and stuff. There are just DIFFERENT MONSTERS. and they roam free in the game world, and you can stumble upon something you can't yet defeat. And that's great.

Did we play the same game? It looked to me like gothic had PLENTY of what you claim it didn't. Monsters were bound to specific locations and straying off the path could result in getting gangbanged by what would seem immortal beasts.

Some creatures wandered about, but never did it out of their own free will, ie, they had to be lured to do so in most cases I've seen. If you ran away too quickly, they would return to the area they roam.

The wolf is in the path right outside the starting castle in the game! I'm not sure how I can level up when the first thing I enounter kills me. I can't get 20 steps outside the castle without dying. Sorry, but that's not a fun gaming experience.

I've never had a problem with that wolf. Actually, the only time it can pose a problem is when you have a pirate version of the game and the wolf's life meter never drops.

Another thing worth mentioning is that you don't have to go straight for the wolf, you can explore around and do a few other things before forward.

 

[Elwro]

I've never had a problem with that wolf. Actually, the only time it can pose a problem is when you have a pirate version of the game and the wolf's life meter never drops.

Buahaha! :D Never heard about this one. Serves them right, those lamers who don't want to pay the designers but can't download a proper crack :D

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yep, that's nonlinearity right there. Game over folks.

Nope, it's not. That's just an optional way of going about a plot point involving the wraithguard. You still have to do everything in a precise order up to that point, then you have to get the wraithguard, then you have to go in a precise order up through the end.

Oddly enough, I did the dwarf thing without killing Vivec. Didn't even know you could get it from Vivec. That's basically where I stopped playing, though.

For the record, though, Prelude to Darkness has two plot lines in it that can lead from beginning to end. However, both of those plot lines are linear.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I hate to break it to you but the Codex isn't all about that "hard core niche". If it was, we wouldn't be praising the likes of Diablo.

 

[Shagnak]

Actually Saint, I thought Sol was being sarcastic up there.
I could be wrong.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, I kinda was. Did a bit of a Volournism there. r00fles.

 

[chaedwards]

Nobody's mentioned cliffracers yet, and we're onto the fourth page.

So... cliffracers eh? They were great.

 

[LlamaGod]

I thought the exploration, alchemy, enchantment, spell-maker, and faction parts of the game were awesome.

They were neat ideas, but they dropped the ball with them. All you needed was money and your character was the best thing in the entire world.

With money you get to max out all your skills and make giant killing spells and way powerful enchantments and the only way for the game to be any sort of hard is to play with max difficulty and in Bloodmoon. There wasnt any limits on anything and that's retarded.

It all goes back to Morrowind having a piece of shit character system, it's definately one of the worst if not the worst i've used in an RPG.

What I want in Oblivion is a solid character system and not the same shit, where stats dont mean squat beyond damage or some value like that and your skills dont mean anything either, you just pick whatever with no structure at all.

 

[whitemithrandir]

I didn't like Gothic's combat somewhat when I first got the game because I had sprained my wrist and could be as agile as the game demanded. SO I left it cold on my bookshelf for about a year, picked it up again, and found the combat surprisingly involving. I loved it because I enjoyed the control *I* had over the result of the fight instead of some random computer generated dice rolls. I think it was the first game where playing a hack n slash fighter was really fun! (Second was guild wars)

As for Morrowind, I didn't think it sucked, though it was linear and frankly, pointless, but the huge world and good graphics (at the time) was largely impressive. I have a lot of faith in Oblivion being a very solid title. I hope Beth doesn't disappoint me.

 

[Human Shield]

The most non-linear game evar!!!!111 There is so much to do, OMG!!

 

[Claw]

Let's put aside the fact that the fucking manuel is fucking terrible. And that the alternative control scheme isn't described in the manuel.

I'll grant you that. On the other hand, you didn't read the readme. I mean, you didn't fucking read the fucking readme. For fuck's sake.
PS: Don't offer me an award for reading the readme.

You've asked me what specific problems I had with Gothic 2's controls. I've quoted you three fairly popular gaming sites complaining about Gothic 2's combat.

Not to mention you only did so after I had already stopped asking THAT question. However, I wanted to hear why YOU had a problem with it, not someone else.
Last not least, you want me to trust an article I already know is factually wrong.

You've suggested there are no rational reasons for disliking Gothic 2's combat or key layouts and I've quoted you three gaming authorities

Oh dear. Next I am going to believe everything written in newspapers, since they are authorities.

And you're complaining about me not answering your post as if I owe you the answer you want. WTF?

r00fles