Anime How much do you hate consoles? (PC master race sentiment)

[Lucumo]

PCtards shall play, ideally via emulation:

Platformer: Tomb Raider 1 (1996), Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Mario Bros 3. All three are TOP QUALITY.

Tomb Raider is very much a PC game. It's also where it sold most copies. I guess this is one of the better examples of historical revisionism.

Yeah, you're engaging in one of the better examples of historical revisionism, fake news and stolen valor for sure.

First released on a console:

Tomb Raider is a 1996 action-adventure video game developed by Core Design and published by Eidos Interactive as the debut entry in the Tomb Raider media franchise. It was first released on the Sega Saturn,

Developed with a console as the target platform from the very start:

It was proposed by Gard to company head Jeremy Heath-Smith during a 1994 brainstorming session for game concepts for the then-upcoming PlayStation console.

As for sales figures, I can't find any concrete data either way. Did you pull that one out of your backside? Not that sales means anything at all here.

Why you and every retard that agreed with you would take issue with this, I don't fucking know. If a game released on PC first, any game, I would have thrown it under the PC gaming category. Console-first, then console category. That's generally how this works.

Because Sega paid for a timed exclusive. It's utterly irrelevant.

Apart from that sentence being based on a garbage article from Eurogamer, 20 years after (pretty ironic) the fact. It even has a nugget like this:

Jeremy Heath-Smith is clear in his mind how Tomb Raider came to be.

"That's how I remember it."

And in general, the article seems to really put words into other people's mouth.

Anyway:

"Tomb Raider came out of my trip to the States," he says, "where Ken Kutaragi showed me the PlayStation.

"I got back on a plane, flew home, and called an off-site meeting of the company."

In 1994, Core was a relatively small developer of around 25 people who were all squeezed into a converted Victorian house on the Ashbourne Road in Derby. At the time, the developer focused on making 2D games for the 32X Sega Mega Drive add-on and the Atari Jaguar. The leap to 3D had yet to happen.

The "32X Sega Mega Drive add-on and the Atari Jaguar", eh? Clearly a console developer.

...or not. Who would have thought Eurogamer would distort history like that. One might even be tempted to call it...historical revisionism.

Non-relevant but interesting nonetheless, from a 2001 BBC interview:

How did Lara's creation first come to you?

I was a big fan of an old first person game called Ultima Underworld and I wanted to mix that type of game with the sort of polygon characters that were just being showcased in Virtua Fighter.

I thought by mixing that up we could make it a sort of real-time interactive movie and that was basically the concept for Tomb Raider.

And more, in contrast to the garbage from Eurogamer:

Why did you provide Lara with larger than life physical attributes?

I think exaggeration is the key to making clearer, more recognisable characters. Caricature, for instance can often communicate an idea faster and more clearly than a realistic representation can. Lara is a caricature of a feisty attractive women.

Anyway, we had this whole Tomb Raider sales discussion before on this forum. Pretty sure it was mentioned in the German edition of Retro Gamer which would then also mean that it was certainly in the British edition. IIRC, the series really started selling more on the Playstation with the third game (maybe even the second already but I'm doubtful on that) which makes sense, considering Sony heavily advertised the series (like it did with Gran Turismo or Final Fantasy VII) while PC players had obviously a lot more options when choosing what to play.

The point is that this...

PCtards shall play, ideally via emulation:

Platformer: Tomb Raider 1 (1996)

...is just retarded.


As a note for people who don't know better: Sony's DualShock Analog Controller was still a whole year off by the time of Tomb Raider's release. Their controller looked like this:

 

[JarlFrank]

keyboard-only control

How is that inferior when it's the perfect way to play a game with tank controls like this?

Meanwhile the console version has controller only controls which is inferior to keyboard in every single conceivable way.

 

[turbo elephant]

If you wanted to be one of the cool kids in the early '80's you had to have this:

(Atari 2600)

So me and my brother wanted this as well. But at the time my dad worked at an organization doing consumer testing & reviews and he brought home this:

In Kwa this was also known as the Magnavox Odyssey 2:

The Odyssey 2 was one of the five major home consoles prior to the 1983 video game market crash, along with Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision and ColecoVision.

Our disappointment was on the level of discovering Sinterklaas ("Dutch Santa") didn't really exist:

 

[Ash]

As a note for people who don't know better: Sony's DualShock Analog Controller was still a whole year off by the time of Tomb Raider's release. Their controller looked like this:

You seem like you're trying to make some grand statement here. Tomb Raider isn't a game designed around nor needing analog control, in fact it wouldn't fit at all. The PSX controller is literally the perfect fit for the game. The game has 14 control functions....and the controller has 14 buttons. It's almost like it was designed targeting consoles. Your mind must be blown right now.

That controller was absolutely solid, for the record. And is the base design for pretty much all controllers today. Trying to shame it does nothing but reveal you're a peasant from some uncultured eastern european shithole that couldn't afford to truly experience gaming broadly in the glory days of the late 90s. You missed out big time. It's never too late to fix it. I provided you with a starter guide to fixing lack of true culture and knowledge on the previous page. Focus on that. Then you will be worthy of gaming discussion.

...is just retarded.

No it isn't. Console versions are better. Emulation is extremely easy to set up and should be set up already for playing many other great classics. The music works out of the box. The acquisition of the game is free and with no patches and tweaking needed. It isn't casual gamer trash; has save limitations built-in with perfect pacing (crystals). Emulators also support controllers which are perfect for TR, whereas the PC release does not unless you use third party software. If you really want to, you can still use keyboard too.

IIRC, the series really started selling more on the Playstation with the third gam

I'm going to need something concrete rather than your faulty memory. You're already claiming it's a PC priority release despite all the evidence to the contrary, why should anyone believe you when it comes to sales figures? Tomb Raider was an absolute hit on Playstation from the word go, and contributed massively to its blazing success.

Anyway, nothing you've said has strengthened your case whatsoever. Ranting about Eurogamer, dismissing the fact it released on consoles first, and trying to claim the CEO of Core Design remembers wrong. You're a historical revisionist and are uncultured, unknowledgeable swine

 

[Nifft Batuff]

If you wanted to be one of the cool kids in the early '80's you had to have this:

(Atari 2600)

So me and my brother wanted this as well. But at the time my dad worked at an organization doing consumer testing & reviews and he brought home this:

In Kwa this was also known as the Magnavox Odyssey 2:

The Odyssey 2 was one of the five major home consoles prior to the 1983 video game market crash, along with Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision and ColecoVision.

Our disappointment was on the level of discovering Sinterklaas ("Dutch Santa") didn't really exist:

It has a keyboard.

 

[Ash]

keyboard-only control

How is that inferior when it's the perfect way to play a game with tank controls like this?

Meanwhile the console version has controller only controls which is inferior to keyboard in every single conceivable way.

Explain how. Keyboards restrict playing posture considerably. You're forced to playing hunched over a flat, hard surface with hands hovering over a board, surrounded by many redundant keys when the game uses so few. With a controller you can play any which way, hanging from the ceiling upside down if you really want, and every input is used with no redundancies. Very comfortable design, soft beveled buttons, ergonomic grip, and decent spacing between buttons minimizing mis-presses. Mouse & keyboard is great...for games where it makes sense (interface-driven). Not seeing any benefit to controllers especially for a game like this is a critical failure on many levels. You wouldn't design a motorbike to have 100 mechanical keys when you only need handlebars, brake and throttle.

You can play TR, or literally any game keyboard only if you want. Just as you can play anything with a controller even if it isn't the best match. Don't fool yourself into thinking keyboard TR is the best way to play out of absurd bias and lack of critical thinking though.

 

[JarlFrank]

Keyboard is 100000000000 times more comfortable than a controller. I use a gel pad in front of it to rest my wrists on, and I can use all my fingers for playing while keeping my hands in a relaxed position. A controller has to be held in your hands and you pretty much only use your thumbs. Far less practical and far less comfortable. I tried using controllers a few times in my life and every single time I wished I had a keyboard instead. Horribly inferior input devices.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Tomb Raider is a PSX game. Evidence: only PSX has chrome textures. Also the PC version is just shit without patches lol. Why even argue against this

 

[Ash]

Controllers use index fingers and middle fingers just as much as thumbs with the shoulder buttons. I think your adaptability stat is really low, unable to shake what you're accustomed to.
A reminder that controllers are designed specifically for gaming. Keyboard and mouse is not (unless custom), they're designed for typing paragraphs and navigating complex interfaces. This happens to be perfect for games that have that focus...which isn't Tomb Raider. It's better played with a controller when looking at things objectively, but if you're comfortable with keyboard and are unwilling to adapt to the better method then by all means, stick with it. It works all the same.

 

[JarlFrank]

These are, in fact, designed specifically for platformer gaming

 

[Ash]

Bro I can see your cheeto dust

The keyboard I am typing on (gaming laptop - integrated keyboard. And kinda shit keyboard for something advertised as for gaming) unfortunately does not have this design.
Keyboards that seperate the arrow keys from the rest of the board indeed are nice fit for platformers.

All control is valid. I switch between mouse & keyboard, controllers of differing types often. There are many pros and cons to each. Some are more favorable than others depending on the game. About the only one that just doesn't work for gaming no matter how you cut it is smartphones touchscreen.

 

[JarlFrank]

That's true, touchscreens are terrible. It's not a coincidence phone games became shit the moment phones lost their buttons.

 

[Ezekiel]

Controllers use index fingers and middle fingers just as much as thumbs with the shoulder buttons. I think your adaptability stat is really low, unable to shake what you're accustomed to.
A reminder that controllers are designed specifically for gaming. Keyboard and mouse is not (unless custom), they're designed for typing paragraphs and navigating complex interfaces. This happens to be perfect for games that have that focus...which isn't Tomb Raider. It's better played with a controller when looking at things objectively, but if you're comfortable with keyboard and are unwilling to adapt to the better method then by all means, stick with it. It works all the same.

Middle fingers? Only when you're using the claw grip: when you're trying to control the camera while pressing the face buttons. Almost any player keeps only their index fingers on top (meaning over the triggers and bumpers) of the controller. Keeping both there requires more motor skills, more thinking. The only games I can even think of that have simultaneous trigger and bumper in mind are old Metal Gear Solid. You look in first person with R1 while leaning with R2.

I played through Tomb Raider II and some of III with a keyboard, liked it, then tried continuing years later in a version with better controller support and found the controller layout much more natural and simple. Obviously need a good D-pad, since you won't be using the analog sticks.

My ideal controller would lay flat, like a keyboard. More comfortable for the hands to rest, and more access for more digits. But it wouldn't be made for typing, it would be made for games. We're stuck in a crappy middle.

Rated JarlFrank's post disgusting because the directional keys are right at the edge. I move navigation to WASD even in 2D games because it's higher and I'm used to navigating with my left hand.

 

[JarlFrank]

In keyboard only games where you don't need a mouse, arrow keys are good for movement because you'll have both hands on the keyboard anyway.

 

[Ezekiel]

In keyboard only games where you don't need a mouse, arrow keys are good for movement because you'll have both hands on the keyboard anyway.

I was talking about keyboard-only 2D games. No difference between WASD and arrow keys for navigation, except that WASD also gives you quick access to the surrounding keys while continuing to move. I assign the action buttons to the right side of the keyboard while you assign them more on the left. Well, I should say "assigned," past tense, because it's been a while since I emulated with a keyboard and I barely play any PC exclusive games.

 

[Ash]

Almost any player keeps only their index fingers on top (meaning over the triggers and bumpers) of the controller. Keeping both there requires more motor skills, more thinking..

Oh no, perish the thought!

Controllers are mostly index fingers and thumbs, and it's fairly rare to ever need more than that in any game - I was incorrect to suggest otherwise, true. Me personally my right hand always has middle finger in use (trigger) and index (bumper), but the left hand I usually only use index finger up top to maintain grip and it's just not necessary otherwise.

The only games I can even think of that have simultaneous trigger and bumper in mind are old Metal Gear Solid

Many more than that.

 

[Ezekiel]

The only games I can even think of that have simultaneous trigger and bumper in mind are old Metal Gear Solid

Many more than that.

Pray tell.

 

[Ash]

Syphon Filter series, Medal of Honor series basically any game with leaning.
Shooters with secondary fire modes where you can use them while firing the primary fire simultaneously.
Hack n slash where you can charge up a power attack while spamming light attacks...that kind of thing.
Also I often rebind controls for games where devs sometimes don't know what they're doing, moving important input away from face buttons onto shoulder. Middle finger also comes in handy here.

That's true, touchscreens are terrible. It's not a coincidence phone games became shit the moment phones lost their buttons.

Fun fact: I even beat Tomb Raider on the Nokia N-Gage, played a big chunk of it at school under the desk lol. It was awkward...but it worked. If I recall it had casual gamer quicksaves, which was kinda necessary for playing it at school so I could quickly save and put it away before the teacher would catch on.

 

[JC'sBarber]

Controllers were terrible for many years, until Hall Effect and now TMR sensors became commonplace. Gyroscopic aiming is also closing the gap somewhat between controllers and mouse + keyboard for FPS games, but I haven't had the pleasure of trying it out for myself.

 

[Lucumo]

As a note for people who don't know better: Sony's DualShock Analog Controller was still a whole year off by the time of Tomb Raider's release. Their controller looked like this:

You seem like you're trying to make some grand statement here. Tomb Raider isn't a game designed around nor needing analog control, in fact it wouldn't fit at all. The PSX controller is literally the perfect fit for the game. The game has 14 control functions....and the controller has 14 buttons. It's almost like it was designed targeting consoles. Your mind must be blown right now.

That controller was absolutely solid, for the record. And is the base design for pretty much all controllers today. Trying to shame it does nothing but reveal you're a peasant from some uncultured eastern european shithole that couldn't afford to truly experience gaming broadly in the glory days of the late 90s. You missed out big time. It's never too late to fix it. I provided you with a guide to fixing lack of true culture and knowledge on the previous page. Focus on that. Then you will be worthy of gaming discussion.

...is just retarded.

No it isn't. Console versions are better. Emulation is extremely easy to set up and should be set up already for playing many other great classics. The music works out of the box. The acquisition of the game is free and with no patches and tweaking needed. It isn't casual gamer trash; has save limitations built-in with perfect pacing (crystals). Emulators also support controllers which are perfect for TR, whereas the PC release does not unless you use third party software. If you really want to, you can still use keyboard too.

IIRC, the series really started selling more on the Playstation with the third gam

I'm going to need something concrete rather than your faulty memory. You're already claiming it's a PC priority release despite all the evidence to the contrary, why should anyone believe you when it comes to sales figures? Tomb Raider was an absolute hit on Playstation from the word go, and contributed massively to its blazing success.

Anyway, nothing you've said has strengthened your case whatsoever. Ranting about Eurogamer, dismissing the fact it released on consoles first, and trying to claim the CEO of Core Design remembers wrong. You're a historical revisionist and are uncultured, unknowledgeable swine

Or I'm not and you are trying to make things up. It's a note for people who don't know, as stated.

[...]keyboard-only control.

After all, you posted this as a "negative" for PC, despite the Playstation controller offering only digital d-pad control. Any normal person would have expected you to pull out analog controls but nope, nothing at all. Ah yeah, "literally the perfect fit". And I really don't care whether the PS version has 14 control functions or not. Using the limit of what a console controller has to offer isn't exactly uncommon...at all.

Lol, even more trying to put words into my mouth. Looking pretty desperate there. Same with the part after that. Not like I have divulged my gaming history plenty of times in this forum directly as well as indirectly.

More retarded and off-topic nonsense.

"Your faulty memory". Based on what? More putting words into my mouth.

Tomb Raider is very much a PC game. It's also where it sold most copies.

Learn to understand what words mean. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Then again, either you really are retarded or are just arguing in a malicious manner. Do you understand the difference between a "PC game" and a "PC priority release"? Those two mean different things. The "sold most copies" can only be said in conjunction with the former, but certainly not the latter. OK, well, it could, but then it would have a completely different meaning.

I didn't dismiss the fact. I said it's utterly irrelevant because it was a paid timed-exclusive. If you want to be anal about it, it was three weeks. Needless to say, I didn't bother with that (despite it strengthening my case) because it's irrelevant. Anyone with knowledge knows that actual ports PC <-> consoles would typically take that much longer (for larger games). And the studio very clearly released console/PC versions on the same day or the PC version earlier. I also didn't claim anything, I cited Eurogamer and they clearly state that that's how it was in _his_ mind. The quote below was a reference to the Simpson's reference of Rashomon where he states: "That's not how I remember it." Absolutely, it could have certainly had some relevance here.

Add to that your claim of the PC version being inferior while listing a bunch of garbage and ignoring the Playstation version's deficiencies in comparison to the PC one.

So yeah, I would say your are discussing in a malicious manner AND are retarded.



(And let's not forget your statements in the historical revisionism thread where you got schooled by me and Nutmeg and then fucked off (Page 21 there, for anyone with a morbid curiosity).)

 

[PrK]

Controllers were terrible for many years, until Hall Effect and now TMR sensors became commonplace. Gyroscopic aiming is also closing the gap somewhat between controllers and mouse + keyboard for FPS games, but I haven't had the pleasure of trying it out for myself.

Just quoting myself from another thread, but "closing the gap" is a massive hyperbole.

In every single game that allows independent character and camera movement m+kb is objectively the better input option.
The fact that developers are very often gigantic incompetent faggots that cannot or are not willing to make the minimal effort does not change that fact. Dark Souls needing mouse fix or DS2 needing a page long AHK script to fix FromSoft's retardation does not mean that the insidious "designed for controllers" meme should be taken at face value. Demand from the devs to put the proper effort in and don't compromise if you care about video games.

 

[Ash]

(And let's not forget your statements in the historical revisionism thread where you got schooled by me and Nutmeg and then fucked off (Page 21 there, for anyone with a morbid curiosity).)

Lol more bending of history! I simply got bored with the thread and walls o' text repeating ourselves.

You're boring. Just let it be. The game released on consoles first, with consoles as the target platform, and offering the better version. Therefore, I rightfully placed it under console gaming, even if it released on PC too. Too much butthurt over this reasonable categorization. If the same thing happened in reverse (released on PC first, consoles after, with PC as the prime platform), there would be much resistance if I tried to claim that were a console game. All this kicking and screaming just shows your extreme bias and narrow gaming background.

 

[PrK]

You're boring. Just let it be. The game released on consoles first, with consoles as the target platform, and offering the better version. Therefore, I rightfully placed it under console gaming, even if it released on PC too. Too much butthurt over this reasonable categorization. If the same thing happened in reverse (released on PC first, consoles shortly after, with PC as the prime platform), there would be much resistance if I tried to claim that were a console game. It just shows your extreme bias and narrow gaming background.

Completely anecdotally, but I do remember Tomb Raider being popular pretty much exclusively with the PC crowd in school, as opposed to say Crash Bandicoot with the console crowd.

 

[Ash]

Crash Bandicoot simps ruin everything. Tomb Raider and Spyro The Dragon were twice the games Crash Bandicoot was, not that Crash was bad by any means. It's one of the most overrated games on the console for sure. I have some small fondness for it but I would sacrifice it in an instant if it means Uncharted and Last of Us (same developer of course) never got made down the line.

Not anecdotally: Tomb Raider got a Platinum label PSX release, which is basically just putting a stamp on the box cover meaning it sold very well, in-turn attracting even more people to buy it as it's been vetted.
It's a shame there's no available sales figures broken down by platform, but I'd imagine it's a toss-up. Anecdotally in my country it was a sensation on all platforms, which stands to reason as I am from the same country as the developers and it's a great game. True greatness transcends platforms and input preferences.

 

[JC'sBarber]

Tomb Raider is slop, Crash is just plain fun. Sure it's not a deep game, but the whole point is that it's a 2D platformer viewed from behind the character, in 3D.