Star Wars How on earth did anyone think KOTOR is an acceptable game

[Harthwain]

I disagree, the Empire is based on Nazi Germany. Stormtroopers, grey/brown uniforms, Vader's helmet, speciesism etc.

I concur.

SW isn't sci-fi IMO. A sci-fi franchise would explain how lightsabers work, how the force works, why hyperspace exists, how Luke or Rey got powerful quickly while Anakin didn't etc. The prequels tried to explain some "space magic" concepts but the fans didn't like it e.g: Midichlorians.

I meant the theme, rather than the substance (spaceships, lasers, interplanetary travel, aliens, etc.). Maybe "space fantasy" is a better term. By the way, you reminded me of Star Trek's techno babble.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I think a lot of the people here complaining about the story only reached the light side ending. It's bland as fuck, and same goes for the whole light side path. Play dark side, the ending is actually awesome.

Both are just as bad, with the dark side one being cartoonishly evil.

Spoiler

Particularly if you have the Wookie kill the Twilek.

And brainwashed Bastilla is cartoonishly evil which is an immersion breaker, but then again dark side is portrayed as cartoonishly evil throughout the whole game.

 

[Nano]

Both are just as bad, with the dark side one being cartoonishly evil.

You call it cartoonish, I say it's designed for sadists. Softies need not apply.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Both are just as bad, with the dark side one being cartoonishly evil.

You call it cartoonish, I say it's designed for sadists. Softies need not apply.

Sadism doesn't have to be an edgy caricature that ends up being corny.

Or to draw an analogy, I prefer a quality thriller over a cheap slasher flick.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I've said this before. KoTOR's innovation was cinematic presentation.

Before a certain game, RPGs were slow, grindy, number crunchers for nerds. After a certain game, RPGs became cinematic spectacles. That game was Final Fantasy 7.

You may not think JRPGs are "real" RPGs or whatever, but that is irrelevant. Game publishers absolutely did not see that distinction in 1997. They only saw a game with stats and level-ups selling ten times the number of copies anyone even thought an RPG could sell. It was actually embarrassing to western devs, many of which were told to develop 'FF7-killers' ASAP. This inspired games like PST and Anachronox, but they failed to understand FF7's true appeal.

It was Bioware who succeeded at stealing the thunder from Squaresoft. They understood the game was about the cinematic look and feel, so they set about doing the same with Star Wars. Under the hood, KoTOR is the same game as Neverwinter Nights, but it looks and feels completely different. The shot-reverse shot camera angles, close up for dialogues, full VO, and the cinematic animations for battles make the whole game feel like you are playing a star wars film.

Story and choices are red herrings. The point of Bioware games has never been to have a deep or reactive story. It's to have a story that looks and feels dramatic. It's all smoke and mirrors.

The cinematic RPG is sort of dead now so it's easy to look back at KoTOR and say yeah it's not a great game (i've always thought the story and characters were trash). But that was never the point, while the use of full voiced dialogue and cinematic framing in every part of the game was quite revolutionary.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I think that Dragon Age Origins was much better in the story department, particularly in its 'evil' choices (e.g. the prisoner and the wounded soldier in Ostagar or Branka's character and the PC's ability to condone her actions). Then again, I don't know how much of the issue is on BioWare's part and how much of it is due to the setting. KotOR 2 also had its cartoonishly evil elements, although it also coupled them with philosophical themes due to which many people (me included) tend to look more leniently upon it.

 

[Tyranicon]

I think a lot of the people here complaining about the story only reached the light side ending. It's bland as fuck, and same goes for the whole light side path. Play dark side, the ending is actually awesome.

dark side one being cartoonishly evil.

Hey welcome to Star Wars. All the nuance was in the EU/Legends, but Disney yeeted that so Star Wars sucks now.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I think a lot of the people here complaining about the story only reached the light side ending. It's bland as fuck, and same goes for the whole light side path. Play dark side, the ending is actually awesome.

dark side one being cartoonishly evil.

Hey welcome to Star Wars. All the nuance was in the EU/Legends, but Disney yeeted that so Star Wars sucks now.

KotOR was theoretically EU as well, but I get your point.

 

[Harthwain]

Star Wars: The Old Republic (MMO) applied Light and Dark Side in a decent fashion. I turned off the point reminders in dialogue options and it turned out I came out fairly neutral in the end, while taking somewhat pragmatic approach as the Imperial Agent.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Star Wars: The Old Republic (MMO) applied Light and Dark Side in a decent fashion. I turned off the point reminders in dialogue options and it turned out I came out fairly neutral in the end, while taking somewhat pragmatic approach as the Imperial Agent.

SWTOR nuances the morality of individual force users much better than the two KotORs.

 

[Nano]

Who gives a fuck about "nuance" and other crap like that. I just want to wander around the galaxy causing anguish and torment to everyone I come across.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Who gives a fuck about "nuance" and other crap like that. I just want to wander around the galaxy causing anguish and torment to everyone I come across.

RPG devs cannot into proper grimderp either, so meh.

 

[Poseidon00]

Every once in awhile some edgy bro makes a topic like "Why does generally liked game X ACTUALLY SUCK???"

As boring as it is predictable. Do we really need a topic to express your monocled preferences?

 

[mondblut]

Like FO:3 to NV, or NWN2 to MOB, it's only reason to exist is it's sequel.

If muh writing is enough to set a "great" sequel apart from a shitty game while both have identical shitty gameplay, maybe stick to the books and stop ruining this form of entertainment for everyone else?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

You might enjoy this, Nano.

 

[Morality Games]

How on earth did anyone think KOTOR is an acceptable game

Gameplay was irrelevant because it came out when action RPGs were in vogue thanks to Diablo + II. Sky's the limit when a click festival is your idea of engaging game play. Just spam Force Lightening or Force Whirlwind and you win. There's just a large group of people who don't care about any real challenge in their games (Diablo's whole game design is that of lottery that only challenges your patience, there's no strategy whatsoever), which is why mobile games are half the entire video game market. It just so happens, that demographic overlaps with a lot of people who also love Star Wars.

As far as all that goes, fair enough. There's no specific burden for Kotor to have well designed or executed game play, and simple games can be fun to play if you're busy and just want to phone it in.

 

[Jvegi]

If muh writing is enough to set a "great" sequel apart from a shitty game while both have identical shitty gameplay

Interaction with the story IS the gameplay.

 

[Tyranicon]

Who gives a fuck about "nuance" and other crap like that. I just want to wander around the galaxy causing anguish and torment to everyone I come across.

RPG devs cannot into proper grimderp either, so meh.

The fact that there has never been a good Warhammer 40k cRPG is practically a crime.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Who gives a fuck about "nuance" and other crap like that. I just want to wander around the galaxy causing anguish and torment to everyone I come across.

RPG devs cannot into proper grimderp either, so meh.

The fact that there has never been a good Warhammer 40k cRPG is practically a crime.

I'm honestly amazed that no major RPG dev attempted it given that Games Workshop seems to give their license to pretty much anyone asking.

And hell, you don't even need one of the big studios. The devs behind Mechanicus nailed the aesthetic and made a pretty good medium (/low?) budget game, so doing a retro-ish RPG in the same vein seems certainly doable.

 

[Tyranicon]

Who gives a fuck about "nuance" and other crap like that. I just want to wander around the galaxy causing anguish and torment to everyone I come across.

RPG devs cannot into proper grimderp either, so meh.

The fact that there has never been a good Warhammer 40k cRPG is practically a crime.

I'm honestly amazed that no major RPG dev attempted it given that Games Workshop seems to give their license to pretty much anyone asking.

And hell, you don't even need one of the big studios. The devs behind Mechanicus nailed the aesthetic and made a pretty good medium (/low?) budget game, so doing a retro-ish RPG in the same vein seems certainly doable.

Making a RPG is a lot of work, with a niche audience (at least for good cRPGs) and slim profit margins compared to other genres. The new, hip thing is making a RPG-lite to monetize damage numbers (Ubisoft, you POS), fucking lol.

Why do you think BioWare stopped making RPGs?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Making a RPG is a lot of work, with a niche audience (at least for good cRPGs) and slim profit margins compared to other genres. The new, hip thing is making a RPG-lite to monetize damage numbers (Ubisoft, you POS), fucking lol.

Why do you think BioWare stopped making RPGs?

 

[Tyranicon]

Making a RPG is a lot of work, with a niche audience (at least for good cRPGs) and slim profit margins compared to other genres. The new, hip thing is making a RPG-lite to monetize damage numbers (Ubisoft, you POS), fucking lol.

Why do you think BioWare stopped making RPGs?

This is the closest you're gonna get to a 40k RPG anytime soon: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/heresy-simulator-warhammer-40k-x-battle-brothers.136448/

I don't know if that makes you more depressed or less.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Making a RPG is a lot of work, with a niche audience (at least for good cRPGs) and slim profit margins compared to other genres. The new, hip thing is making a RPG-lite to monetize damage numbers (Ubisoft, you POS), fucking lol.

Why do you think BioWare stopped making RPGs?

This is the closest you're gonna get to a 40k RPG anytime soon: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/heresy-simulator-warhammer-40k-x-battle-brothers.136448/

I don't know if that makes you more depressed or less.

Doesn't fill that gap, but godspeed on your endeavors.

 

[Tyranicon]

Making a RPG is a lot of work, with a niche audience (at least for good cRPGs) and slim profit margins compared to other genres. The new, hip thing is making a RPG-lite to monetize damage numbers (Ubisoft, you POS), fucking lol.

Why do you think BioWare stopped making RPGs?

This is the closest you're gonna get to a 40k RPG anytime soon: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/heresy-simulator-warhammer-40k-x-battle-brothers.136448/

I don't know if that makes you more depressed or less.

Doesn't fill that gap, but godspeed on your endeavors.

Just for you, I'm gonna throw in a certain angry, yellow space marine chapter.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Just for you, I'm gonna throw in a certain angry, yellow space marine chapter.

Spoiler

I'm mostly an Iron Warriors guy. Just using Angry Marine memes due to their availability.