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Incline How to make Skyrim combat fun

Goromorg

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Aug 23, 2015
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What? No way Skyrim combat is better than DM's.
 
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Timed blocking is retarded.
Parrying is a different matter.

What's the difference between the two? In games, timed blocking IS parrying, since no game has really implemented a decent directional deflection system. Mount & Blade has directional blocking but that's not really the same as RL parrying either. Basically, the timing element adds an active component to the defense, since otherwise you just hold it down and can perform it in a coma.



Regarding the OP, unfortunately, I have to admit my original mod setup does not really work as well as I thought. First of all, there is some weird mod order issue where sometimes combining Ultimate Combat and Blocking Behavior Improved mods works, and sometimes it doesn't. I have no idea why or how, but I guess it's because they both modify the same file (1hm_behavior.hkx). There is another mod, called FNIS that's supposed to merge the file for both mods, but one, you have to take a college course to learn how to use it, and two, I am not sure it has patches for both of these. Then, there is another issue, I think the behavior mod makes 1 handed sword and axe attacks a bit slower, so you have a chance to time block, but daggers attacks are unaffected, so anything with a dagger will still murderize you. Once again, Skyrim manages to ruin any attempt to mod its combat into something decent. Alas...
 
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Timed blocking is retarded.
Parrying is a different matter.

What's the difference between the two?

There's no penalty to timed blocking. If you fuck up the timing, then you're just blocking. No risk, high reward.
Conversely, if you go for a parry but don't time it right, then you're left open. High risk, high reward.

There is if you set it up properly. The mods I tried to use above cancel damage 100%. Regular block with weapons cancels up to 60% damage, but I am playing on Master, which means you take 2x damage. 60% of 2x basically means you are taking full damage on regular block, so there is definitely a penalty. If the rest of it worked.
 

HarveyBirdman

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Jan 5, 2019
Messages
989
Why would you want to play a game where blocking amounts to full damage? Skyrim's combat is utterly broken from the ground up. It's unfixable.
I reiterate, the only way to enjoy the combat is playing as this guy:

 
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DJOGamer PT

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Timed blocking is retarded.
Parrying is a different matter.

What's the difference between the two?

There's no penalty to timed blocking. If you fuck up the timing, then you're just blocking. No risk, high reward.

You're talking about timed blocking for shields rigth?
Because timed blocking for weapons makes is the exact oposite of what you just described.

Obviously you could, but ignoring the kick, the combat was miles ahead of anything Bethesda ever produced.
Nostalgia is blinding you, Dark Messiah is pretty good for its time and first-person aRPG combat isn't a big enough trend for it to have serious competition, but vanilla Skyrim is already slightly better (not to mention the much higher diversity in gear, spells and skills) and with mods it gets stomped so bad your balls hurt by proxy.

Vanilla Skyrim's combat is much worse than Dark Messiah. Not only does every enemy in Skyrim play exactly like the last (with the exception of the more unique beasts like dragons and giants), but worst of all Skyrim's combat lacks the impact, feedback and versatility of Dark Messiah's combat.
 

MWaser

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It's actually pretty amusing to see the lengths people go to in order to make Skyrim's mechanics less shit instead of just playing games with inherently less shit mechanics.

What are you then playing Skyrim for? Story?
 

HarveyBirdman

Savant
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Jan 5, 2019
Messages
989
Timed blocking is retarded.
Parrying is a different matter.

What's the difference between the two?

There's no penalty to timed blocking. If you fuck up the timing, then you're just blocking. No risk, high reward.

You're talking about timed blocking for shields rigth?
Because timed blocking for weapons makes is the exact oposite of what you just described.
Why would it be any different for weapons? Weapons don't block as well as shields, but the block button is still the block button.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Why would it be any different for weapons? Weapons don't block as well as shields, but the block button is still the block button.

Except timed block for weapons means that you can't hold the block button - so when you click the block button the PC will just block with the weapon momentarely (like in Severance or Mordhau).
 

MpuMngwana

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
307
It's actually pretty amusing to see the lengths people go to in order to make Skyrim's mechanics less shit instead of just playing games with inherently less shit mechanics.

What are you then playing Skyrim for? Story?

I've spent more time browsing and installing Skyrim mods then playing the actual game. It's fun and addictive, feels like you're making your own game out of Legos or something. After I'm done with all that, however, I'll probably quit after less then 10 hours, not really seeing half of shit I've installed.

In other words, it's not the destination, it's the journey.
 

HarveyBirdman

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Messages
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Why would it be any different for weapons? Weapons don't block as well as shields, but the block button is still the block button.

Except timed block for weapons means that you can't hold the block button - so when you click the block button the PC will just block with the weapon momentarely (like in Severance or Mordhau).
What prevents you from holding the block button? My experience with timed block mechanics/mods is:

1.0 - press and hold block
1.5. - yay! you did it in time! little benefit happens
1.5-2.0 - you timed it wrong! :( keep holding, and you'll keep blocking, because it's the block button.

Regardless, even if you use some jerry rigged mod that tries to change things around (such as... state 1: parry, state 2: gap, state 3: block) it's dumb as hell to have a block button function as a parry button. They're two totally different actions.

Think of it this way.
You wouldn't want Madden to have a "defense" button, right?
Press the defense button, and you square up to the ball.
Press the defense button, and you stick close to your man in man-to-man coverage.
Press the defense button, and you stay within your 20 yard zone, and automatically move towards receivers who run into your zone.
Press the defense button, and you go for a pick.
Press the defense button, and you swat the ball.
Press the defense button, and you wrap up for a tackle.
Press the defense button, and you don't wrap up for a tackle, but instead torpedo the legs.

An ARPG needs to be an APRG. Cutting corners is shitty. The only way to make non-archery combat in Skyrim engaging is to... oh wait, nevermind, there is no way to do that. (Actually, there is one -- just one -- other fun option. The telekenesis power that vampire lords have is a genuine pleasure. Force throwing people around like Darth Vader is tons of fun.)
 
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Deleted Member 16721

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It's actually pretty amusing to see the lengths people go to in order to make Skyrim's mechanics less shit instead of just playing games with inherently less shit mechanics.

What are you then playing Skyrim for? Story?

Story, exploration, loot, dungeon diving, the feeling of being in a huge world. The game's mechanics work fine as-is when you factor in everything the game offers. In other words, it's more than the sum of its parts.
 

DJOGamer PT

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What prevents you from holding the block button? My experience with timed block mechanics/mods is:

1.0 - press and hold block
1.5. - yay! you did it in time! little benefit happens
1.5-2.0 - you timed it wrong! :( keep holding, and you'll keep blocking, because it's the block button.

I don't think you ever played a game that had timed blocking for weapon done rigth (Severance, Mordhau, Chivalary). Or maybe your not understanding what I really mean.
Timed blocking for weapons means your character can just block for a very short amount of time before putting down his weapon automatically - regardless if you're holding down the block button or not.
Plus you have to account for the delay before your weapon is in the "block position", and the delay after the block when your avatar is putting his weapon back in the "normal position".
So you just have that small window of time to block an incoming attack, that is proceeded and succeeded by a small interval where you can't block anything.
If you succeed you block the attack, if you don't you get hit. High risk, high reward.

So that time frame goes more like this:
0.0s - 0.5s : you started the block, during this time you can get hit; if you started to late you'll get hit here
0.5s - 1.0s : the actual block
1.0s - 1.5s : you get back to the "normal" state you're in before you started the block; doesn't matter if you're holding down the block button, your PC will put the weapon down anyway; if you started to soon you'll get hit here
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,970
It's actually pretty amusing to see the lengths people go to in order to make Skyrim's mechanics less shit instead of just playing games with inherently less shit mechanics.

What are you then playing Skyrim for? Story?

Because I ran out of "games with inherently less shit mechanics". I already played KCD, ELEX, BotW, Dark Souls, Witcher 3, etc. So since the industry is not exactly churning out gold by the hour, here I am, trying to mod this pile of ...

power attacks

???

can you explain this

i don't understand

Sure. What would you like me to explain about power attacks?



Regarding the original mod setup in OP, so I got it to work again. Basically, if you install Ultimate Combat first, then play through intro up until after first fight in Helgen, and then install Blocking Behavior Improved mod, it seems to work together. You can parry most attacks in a timed manner, with visual feedback (enemy gets staggered usually, there is a sound effect that plays) - this works for parrying quick and power attacks for 1 handed swords, axes, maces, and 2 handed swords, warhammers, axes. What it doesn't work for is parrying quick dagger attacks, which are still instantaneous, and hit as soon as the enemy animation starts.

My thinking is most enemies past the starting area/low level should not be using daggers, so theoretically this should work against most stuff. And against daggers users, they do little damage, so with heavy armor you can pretty much neutralize their quick attacks, and just parry their power attacks and take them out that way.

For everyone else, while this mod setup is not perfect, it's still way more fun than any other Skyrim combat loadout I ever tried or saw on youtube. Strafing to avoid ranged fire while parring melee enemies actually passes for a halfway decent combat system, something Bethesda could not do in their wildest dreams.
 

HarveyBirdman

Savant
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
989
What prevents you from holding the block button? My experience with timed block mechanics/mods is:

1.0 - press and hold block
1.5. - yay! you did it in time! little benefit happens
1.5-2.0 - you timed it wrong! :( keep holding, and you'll keep blocking, because it's the block button.

I don't think you ever played a game that had timed blocking for weapon done rigth (Severance, Mordhau, Chivalary). Or maybe your not understanding what I really mean.
Timed blocking for weapons means your character can just block for a very short amount of time before putting down his weapon automatically - regardless if you're holding down the block button or not.
Plus you have to account for the delay before your weapon is in the "block position", and the delay after the block when your avatar is putting his weapon back in the "normal position".
So you just have that small window of time to block an incoming attack, that is proceeded and succeeded by a small interval where you can't block anything.
If you succeed you block the attack, if you don't you get hit. High risk, high reward.

So that time frame goes more like this:
0.0s - 0.5s : you started the block, during this time you can get hit; if you started to late you'll get hit here
0.5s - 1.0s : the actual block
1.0s - 1.5s : you get back to the "normal" state you're in before you started the block; doesn't matter if you're holding down the block button, your PC will put the weapon down anyway; if you started to soon you'll get hit here
Yeah not crazy about that. Martial artists can get into defensive stances that function like a constant block. Swordsmen, I assume, can do the same.
Better to have a block button that lets you take a blocking stance. The effectiveness of your blocks are tied to skill.
The system you described works better for parrying.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Yeah not crazy about that. Martial artists can get into defensive stances that function like a constant block. Swordsmen, I assume, can do the same.
Better to have a block button that lets you take a blocking stance. The effectiveness of your blocks are tied to skill.

IRL you can also defend with a shield and attack with your weapon at the same time.

For action combat (specially the kind like Severance, Nioh and in this case Skyrim) this is the best way to implement blocking for weapons.

Also a Blocking skill for an ARPG is just a plain dumb design choice, whose only good use is to make the number of skills higher.
 

HarveyBirdman

Savant
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
989
I never said timed blocking doesn't exist; I just don't think it's a good substitute for blocking. The gameplay you posted functions like parrying, which is fine -- good even -- but still doesn't fix blocking.
 

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