How Will WOTC New Approach to Races Effect the Future CRPG?

[Heroic Liberator]

Meh, I still don't see any issue with it personally. It's not like Tolkien took a stereotypical portrayal of a real race or ethnicity and transposed it in his writings, it's just that some stereotypes that happened to be associated with this or that group (which were already part of English folklore and/or the English literary tradition) were used as a source of inspiration for the shaping of a fantasy race. Dwarves having some Semitic influences doesn't make them an antisemitic caricature, just as Dawn of War Orkz aren't some affront to working class Brits just because they happen to share a Cockney accent.

 

[Azarkon]

* Use a different word than "race" for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

Species is the correct word, at least as long as two different races can't produce fertile offspring.

They often can, though, in fantasy. See: half orcs, half elves, etc.

But that doesn't make them biological races because fantasy's rules for biology aren't the same. There is much more of a spiritual angle.

I mean, in what biological context can a demon could produce a viable offspring with a human?

The source is ancient myths and legends, in which humans could readily breed with animals, gods, demons, monsters, objects - you name it.

So there isn't an actual reason for why fantasy must follow the rules of human biology, aside from a lack of imagination.

In fact, the various "races" in fantasy aren't even related to one another. Tolkien's dwarves, elves, and humans were acts of separate creation. They have nothing to do with each other, evolution wise.

Same is the case for Dungeons and Dragons. So even the word "species" is not quite right because it implies a biological origin. The "races" in fantasy are actually more like separate orders of being - like angels vs. humans, or robots vs. humans. Their creation stories hard support this, but for whatever reason, writers don't care.

 

[lukaszek]

better place em on real european map, like wh did. Then you can place dinosaurs in their right place

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Races like orcs were based off of real world races

Citation needed.

Why does Z put beaks and feathers on Orcs!? (Orcs is not a form of Auks.) The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were)squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.

In a letter from Tolkien to Forrest J. Ackerman, 1958

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I still don't see any particular issue with it. They're inspired by European stereotypes/perceptions of real life 'Mongol-types', but they're not a caricature of the latter transposed to a fantasy setting.

 

[Riddler]

* Use a different word than "race" for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

Species is the correct word, at least as long as two different races can't produce fertile offspring.

They often can, though, in fantasy. See: half orcs, half elves, etc.

But that doesn't make them biological races because fantasy's rules for biology aren't the same. There is much more of a spiritual angle.

I mean, in what biological context can a demon could produce a viable offspring with a human?

The source is ancient myths and legends, in which humans could readily breed with animals, gods, demons, monsters, objects - you name it.

So there isn't an actual reason for why fantasy must follow the rules of human biology, aside from a lack of imagination.

In fact, the various "races" in fantasy aren't even related to one another. Tolkien's dwarves, elves, and humans were acts of separate creation. They have nothing to do with each other, evolution wise.

Same is the case for Dungeons and Dragons. So even the word "species" is not quite right because it implies a biological origin. The "races" in fantasy are actually more like separate orders of being - like angels vs. humans. Their creation stories hard support this, but for whatever reason, writers don't care.

For what it's worth, different species regularly produce viable offspring with each other even when they are so different that they have differing numbers of chromosomes. Some are even fertile.

Examples:

• Mules
• Tigons/Ligers
• Savannah cats

 

[rusty_shackleford]

* Use a different word than "race" for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

Species is the correct word, at least as long as two different races can't produce fertile offspring.

They often can, though, in fantasy. See: half orcs, half elves, etc.

But that doesn't make them biological races because fantasy's rules for biology aren't the same. There is much more of a spiritual angle.

I mean, in what biological context can a demon could produce a viable offspring with a human?

The source is ancient myths and legends, in which humans could readily breed with animals, gods, demons, monsters, objects - you name it.

So there isn't an actual reason for why fantasy must follow the rules of human biology, aside from a lack of imagination.

In fact, the various "races" in fantasy aren't even related to one another. Tolkien's dwarves, elves, and humans were acts of separate creation. They have nothing to do with each other, evolution wise.

Same is the case for Dungeons and Dragons. So even the word "species" is not quite right because it implies a biological origin. The "races" in fantasy are actually more like separate orders of being - like angels vs. humans. Their creation stories hard support this, but for whatever reason, writers don't care.

For what it's worth, different species regularly produce viable offspring with each other even when they are so different that they have differing numbers of chromosomes. Some are even fertile.

Examples:

• Mules
• Tigons/Ligers
• Savannah cats

no idea if it's one of the more distant, but it's definitely one of the more strange(and probably unknown):
hybrid dolphin+false killer whale. yep.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholphin

 

[octavius]

For what it's worth, different species regularly produce viable offspring with each other even when they are so different that they have differing numbers of chromosomes. Some are even fertile.

Examples:

• Mules

Tigons/Ligers

They are usually not fertile, which is excactly why I mentioned it.

 

[JamesDixon]

Problem:

* Races like orcs were based off of real world races, hence are potentially offensive.
* Classic fantasy subscribes to intrinsic racial attributes, hence challenging racial equality.

Could correct by:

* Make fantasy races not based off of real world races.
* Use a different word than "race" for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

Instead:

* Double down on making fantasy races allegories for real world races by introducing contemporary sensitivities.
* Continue to use the word "race" incorrectly for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

In my 51 years, I've never seen this and my generation was raised color blind. When I started playing D&D in 1984 and in the years since none of us ever made the connection of orcs=coloreds or any other race. This leads me to believe that you're the racist as you see it when no one else does.

The only genre that I can even remotely pinpoint to your beliefs is Sword & Sorcery. For example, Robert E. Howard's Conan has real world races populating his world. That's because he doesn't have fantasy races like orcs etc... They're all human and Hyboria is pre-history earth. However, he treated them with respect and didn't use racism to stereotype them.

As for the societies etc... of different cultures in fantasy, those are not demeaning stereotypes. They are the baseline for the writer to use due to personal experience and twist them to suit the world they're creating. We all do it because it's familiar and easy to get your point across. If you go too alien most of your audience would roll their eyes and stop reviewing your work. Is that racist? According to you it is. According to those of us with a brain that it's not.

The solution to this is for you to stop being a racist and view things in a colorblind manner.

 

[JamesDixon]

Tolkien's orcs sort of were. Warcraft's orcs certainly are. Not sure about Dungeons and Dragons, though; the lore's kind of generic.

Unless the creators for those particular settings have outright stated that they're derivative, nah. Just because triggered snowflakes make the connection between orcs and certain real life racial stereotypes doesn't make one derivative of the other.

In Tolkien's case, he did make direct allusions.

This was from an interview he did in 1964:

Tolkien: The dwarves of course are quite obviously-

D. Gueroult [interrupting]: wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews?

Tolkien: Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. Hobbits are just rustic English people, made small in size because it reflects (in general) the small reach of their imagination - not the small reach of their courage or latent power.

I don't think Blizzard ever came out and said, "yeah, trolls are kind of like Jamaicans crossed with Aztecs, tauren are basically Plains Indians, and orcs are generic Mongols/Turks." But that's only because they don't want to be canceled. Though, as it turns out, it didn't save them any way.

Classic taking the source of context. Tolkien was a professor of languages. All of the languages he created were based upon real world languages. To say that he was being racist for using Hebrew and other Semitic languages as a basis for Dwarves is ludicrous. You are showing your racism towards Jewish and Semitic people by thinking he was being a racist. A racist sees what they want to see without regard to context of the author.

I'd be interested in what you think about the races in my fantasy setting. I bet you'd call me a misogynist and a racist for how things are done.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Honestly, I'd be much more offended as a black man by PoE's black Renaissance era Italians than as a Jew by Tolkien's Dwarves since the former were not inspired by any tropes, but were only made as a sort of 'positive stereotypization' to combat preexisting negative stereotypes pertaining to African Americans.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Also, for the record, I really like Dwarves.

 

[JamesDixon]

Also, for the record, I really like Dwarves.

I turned the Dwarves in my setting into swashbuckling pirates and merchants while making the elves be the miners.

 

[JarlFrank]

Dungeon and Dragons, and many others, still have all these trivialities, but they never have been more far away from being even something remotely close to fantasy than they are now.

I can agree with you on that one. The modern incarnation of D&D is very, very, very far away from all of its roots, both major and minor. Far away from Gygax's original D&D, from the cheesy but creative settings of 2E, from Tolkien's high fantasy, from pulpy sword & sorcery, from mythology and from old adventure novels.

This is happening to the (mainstream) fantasy genre as a whole. It used to be about some form of longing or adventure: longing for old civilizations, for barbarism, for the times when men were free and there were still places in the world left to explore; the adventure of being a sellsword or a hero, of traveling the world, of wandering where no man has gone before.

Now it's all about [CURRENT YEAR] politics in secondary worlds. No, you can't escape into a different world where the rules of life and society don't resemble our own. Everything has to be exactly like 21st century California or it's [insert buzzword here].

Fantasy has lost its imagination, and it's sad.

 

[JarlFrank]

Could correct by:

* Make fantasy races not based off of real world races.

But that's already the case and only sub-room temperature IQ mongoloids claim the opposite to be true.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Now it's all about [CURRENT YEAR] politics in secondary worlds. No, you can't escape into a different world where the rules of life and society don't resemble our own. Everything has to be exactly like 21st century California or it's [insert buzzword here].

That's one thing that has alaways annoyed me about the diversity crowd. You could have a story starring a Mongolian, a German, 2 Russians and an Arab but it would still be considered less diverse than a game starring 2 white dudes from NY and a black guy form LA. "Game isn't inclusive enough" is a basically a code-word for "game doesn't look American enough, please keep making it more American until it becomes impossible to tell which country the game was made in".

 

[lukaszek]

You could have a story starring a Mongolian, a German, 2 Russians and an Arab

invading poland over the years sort of story?

 

[Harthwain]

Except Sauron was not evil just for the sake of being evil. He was an extreme control freak; order and control was his initial motivation.
As such he reminds me of many Lawful Evil leaders of today.

Even Morgoth was not initially evil; he just wanted to create life of his own, and rebelled when he was denied it.

He may not be evil for the sake of being evil, but he is still evil and the kind of creatures he commands (Nazgul, Orcs) are a testament to this. Saruman makes an army to rival that of Mordor and his idea are troops who boast that they are "the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat", which says something about who you are trying to emulate.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

Is Professor Tolkien being slandered by imbeciles again?

 

[JamesDixon]

Except Sauron was not evil just for the sake of being evil. He was an extreme control freak; order and control was his initial motivation.
As such he reminds me of many Lawful Evil leaders of today.

Even Morgoth was not initially evil; he just wanted to create life of his own, and rebelled when he was denied it.

He may not be evil for the sake of being evil, but he is still evil and the kind of creatures he commands (Nazgul, Orcs) are a testament to this. Saruman makes an army to rival that of Mordor and his idea are troops who boast that they are "the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat", which says something about who you are trying to emulate.

He also wasn't Stupid Evil that most players think of when it comes to Chaotic Evil. Stupid Evil are the mass murdering psychos that are murder hobos. No country would allow them to survive. That includes Chaotic Evil governments that rule through fear and might makes right. It's bad for everyone to have murder hobos that are Stupid Evil running around.

 

[JamesDixon]

Is Professor Tolkien being slandered by imbeciles again?

Yes, he was called a racist for daring to use Semitic languages as a basis for dwarves.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

Is Professor Tolkien being slandered by imbeciles again?

Yes, he was called a racist for daring to use Semitic languages as a basis for dwarves.

The ignore button exists for this specific reason.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

I mean, in what biological context can a demon could produce a viable offspring with a human?

In the context of vegan activists.

 

[JamesDixon]

I mean, in what biological context can a demon could produce a viable offspring with a human?

In the context of vegan activists.

I don't think Blizzard ever came out and said, "yeah, trolls are kind of like Jamaicans crossed with Aztecs, tauren are basically Plains Indians, and orcs are generic Mongols/Turks." But that's only because they don't want to be canceled. Though, as it turns out, it didn't save them any way.

Warcraft/Warhammer orcs are more like Africans, if Africans ever had any kind o aren't they? Tolkien's orcs were explicitly turkish.

Notice how SJWs remove the offending races, but keep the land for white people? How racist is that?

 

[octavius]

He may not be evil for the sake of being evil, but he is still evil and the kind of creatures he commands (Nazgul, Orcs) are a testament to this.

And today we have Sauros commanding Antifa creatures. It's all part of Iluvatar's plan.