Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Game News Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition announced, to be released within a month

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,705
Reminder that Brian Mitsoda once had a Lower Dorn's Deep-induced meltdown because the idea of prebuffing never occurred to him.

D&D is/was a failure of a high-skill floor ruleset so it's difficult to tune content that doesn't brickwall newcomers/the obstinate that veterans can also enjoy. IWD2 was clearly trying to be a challenge though, Josh himself said that he wanted to deliver something that people who had already completed all the previous IE games would still find interesting.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,761
Location
Copenhagen
So That meant, battle for wesnoth, Fire emblem, and board RPG do not count ok.
AGain, I can make knights of the chalice hard with two rules (no infinite campfire, no crafting). But i guess that doesnt count to you.
Oh well, then yes, there are no hard RPG, I wish there were.

No, because what you establish to be hard is your subjective assesment on what you find difficult. Using your argument, I can extrapolate most complex games that can be cheesed or abused to be non-difficult. RPGs are complex, and even with most games there are people who can beat them blindfolded or whatever.

I don't think there's many people outside of select very dedicated gamers who found the IE-games non-challenging and I think the claim that they didn't try to be is just blatant bullshit.

And even for those select few, BG2 on Insane soloed or IWD on HoF-mode is pretty tough compared to most RPGs out there.
 

Waterd

Augur
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
228
What complex game you name that can be cheesed or abused? if it can be cheesed or abused, then of course it´s non difficult. Games can be extremely complex, yet easy. Go and Chess are simple games, and yet extremely deep and hard to master. Complexity is not related to difficulty.

Fire emblem path of radiance in normal difficulty is WAY WAY WAY harder than IWD on hof. There is a universe of difference between two.
Fire emblem path of radiance, requires a correct hard to do decision frequently to analyze the game state and find the best course of action to that game state. All you have to know in IWD is that you have to summon, bombard, run, rest, after that there are no decisions almost, it´s all micromanagment to execute that knowledge.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,761
Location
Copenhagen
Complexity is not related to difficulty.

Since I didn't state anything like this, I assume you were just making a general claim out of thin air? Anyway, let me know when you've replied to my post proper.

Fire emblem path of radiance in normal difficulty is WAY WAY WAY harder than IWD on hof. There is a universe of difference between two.

There is a difference between: "some other game is harder" and "IWD has no difficulty." Ponder on that difference for a bit.
 

Waterd

Augur
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
228
It natural in a debate to assume things based on what the other party said to shorten significantly the length of the debate.
Stating this
¨I can extrapolate most complex games that can be cheesed or abused to be non-difficult. RPGs are complex, and even with most games there are people who can beat them blindfolded or whatever.¨
Only make sense, to establish your point if you think there is a relation between complexity and diffiiculty, if you think that si not so, this sentence is, as far as i know irrelevant to the discussion or your point, othwise, plz explain the relevance of this sentence.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,761
Location
Copenhagen
Only make sense, to establish your point if you think there is a relation between complexity and diffiiculty, if you think that si not so, this sentence is, as far as i know irrelevant to the discussion or your point, othwise, plz explain the relevance of this sentence.

Er, no. I stated "complex" exactly in the sense that I wrote it. RPGs are complex and thus allow for more ways to be cheesed, abused, completed and defeated.
 

Lonely Vazdru

Pimp my Title
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,701
Location
Agen
Those debates are so pointless. So Waterd found IE games laughingly easy ? Since many others didn't, they are either morons and Waterd is normal, or they are normal and Waterd is super smart. Either way, Waterd is head and shoulders above them, we got that. So what was Waterd point before the dick contest started ?

The point is that I find the story mode ideal of what these games try to accomplish, Infinity games do not try to be challenge, try to be software like choose your own adventure.
Ok, IE games are not even trying to be challenging, they are just CYOA with some combat thrown in to make the lesser minded feel like they actually acomplished something. Condescendance then. My bad, back to the dick contest...
So me, I found IWD to be a bit too easy but still hard enough that I didn't feel like plowing through a kindergarden stealing candies from helpless children. At least not in my first playthrough. I guess that makes me medium sized dick, leaning on the short side even.
 

Waterd

Augur
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
228
I think what actually happens is not that im super smart or anything like that, In fact my intelligence is only average for humans that are on our social status (that is we aren´t in hoping tomorrow we can find fresh water and the idea of having time and a computer to play games is not just a dream) though I´m a professional gamer so i have the mentality to learn fast games though training.

First, Ive relate to a lot of games (look for my nickname in google to find me in several game related forums) and I rarely find people that tell me infinity games are hard, on the contrary.
I think it´s more likely people that find IE games hard, do the same than I do, they design their own rules. But instead of creating a discrete set of rules, they create rules on the fly like gods in the game. And everytime they find the right move, they ban it on their head.
Ive seen it constantly in debates on difficulty on RPG.
Just yesterday I was talking on a game how the best strategy was with an archer from maximum distance to kill the unit, and that unit would have no chance to retaliate, the answer was ¨wouldn´t that take too long¨. We are talking about a game without time limit here.
This kind of limitations are constant in people, some even do not realize they do it.
But if you are gonna limit yourself like that , then every game in existence is hard, and these kind of people tend to qualify most games they like as hard, as they want to take the time to redesign the game on the fly, or easy if they find it so boring that they don´t want to take the work of the designer.

This has nothing to do with dick size, I have no problem competing in games to measure dicks. But how can i even do that if RPG can´t provide a way to compare dicks?
What im trying to say, that the comparaision of skills in a game should be done under a controlled environment of rules. CRPG don´t have that, there don´t exist any way to measure that, so it would be pointless on my part.

IE games don´t try to be challenging, they are Toys or sandbox if you like, just to create or recreate histories, like puppets. nothing else.

What im trying though is to advance the DESIGN of CRPG.
CRPG can be challenging and fun and be more fullfulling to more people if they were designed with the option to provide challenge.
As I said Knights of the chalice hit the mark closer than any other game.
But CRPG are behind, BOARD RPG (not D&D), are way closer to the mark most of them provide interesting challenge, with a strong theme.
I hope Crpg evolve to the design quality of board RPG, and one of the steps is for the public to ask designers to create challenging games, instead of each one just create their rules on the fly to create challenge.
The point of this is to debate so the mentaility of the consumers change in favor of better design of interactive enterteinment.
The apologetics of the lack of challenge of RPG, or even an option for that (Again im all to Story mode difficulty to those that want to experience the game that way) just hinder the progress of CRPG design.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
3,213
Location
Vostroya
Well, Fire Emblem games often are hard, if you want to play them with permadeath. Problem is, they are wrong kind of hard, on higher difficulties there are almost always one, maximum two strategies which allow you both to win and don't loose characters. It reminded me of someone (Black Cat maybe?) talking on 'dex about how she/he plays the games like a puzzle - main goal is to deduce an optimal path to win. As for myself, I really hate when there's only one viable combat tactic, and dislike such approach.
 
Last edited:

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,160
Well, Fire Emblem games often are hard, if you want to play them with permadeath. Problem is, they are wrong kind of hard, on higher difficulties there are almost always one, two max strategies which allow you both to win and don't loose characters. It reminded me of someone (Black Cat maybe?) talking on 'dex about how she/he plays the games like a puzzle - main goal is to deduce an optimal path to win. As for myself, I really hate when there's only one viable combat tactics, and dislike such approach.
How does Langrisser compare to Fire Emblem?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
3,213
Location
Vostroya
Well, Fire Emblem games often are hard, if you want to play them with permadeath. Problem is, they are wrong kind of hard, on higher difficulties there are almost always one, two max strategies which allow you both to win and don't loose characters. It reminded me of someone (Black Cat maybe?) talking on 'dex about how she/he plays the games like a puzzle - main goal is to deduce an optimal path to win. As for myself, I really hate when there's only one viable combat tactics, and dislike such approach.
How does Langrisser compare to Fire Emblem?
I've played only Langrisser 2, I think. Sega Genesis version, with emulator, it was only partly translated back then. It was in early 00s, and I don't remember much, so I can't really comment, sorry.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
(Again im all to Story mode difficulty to those that want to experience the game that way)

Well, you make some sense in the other stuff you're saying, but not much in this I think.
Won't a story mode in the end reduce the number of people interested in a challenge? Even if they're only interested in the story initially, if they meet at least SOME challenge they might enjoy it and eventually ask for more. On the other hand if they just get an awesome button from the start they will get used to that and won't be able to comprehend anything else.
It's decline at its worst.
 
Last edited:

Waterd

Augur
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
228
To me that is not the wrong kind of hard, yes generally there is only one strat that will make you lose no characters in the later levels, well though luck, you will lose some characters if you dont find the solution.
My problem with the game are critical hit specially on harder difficulties, you may play perfect but critical and you instant die.
I usually play these games on ironman and losing such a run because an unavoidable critical is reallly really really frustrating, but that is a different topic i think. (no you can´t really play around critical on harder difficulties since, with some exceptions, on the early levels, most characters die from a single critical)
 

Waterd

Augur
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
228
feeltherads is ok, some people aren´t interested in challenge, they just want an interactive story, is the kind of people that play doom in god mode etc. And that´s all fine, i think they should have that option.
 

Bulba

Learned
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
518
So That meant, battle for wesnoth, Fire emblem, and board RPG do not count ok.
AGain, I can make knights of the chalice hard with two rules (no infinite campfire, no crafting). But i guess that doesnt count to you.
Oh well, then yes, there are no hard RPG, I wish there were.

define hard. cos for me a hard rpg is a game where I have to reload some fights multiple times. as for bg being an easy game I disagree. just of the top of my head some of the expansion fights - a dragon that turns invisible and can oneshot multiple(not sure if it was multiple) members of your party so hard that they explode and you can't resurrect them, some fights with lots of firegiants, endboss in the tower was p challenging and there were lots more difficult and interesting encounters.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
feeltherads is ok, some people aren´t interested in challenge, they just want an interactive story, is the kind of people that play doom in god mode etc. And that´s all fine, i think they should have that option.

No, it's not. This kind of thinking is what brought decline in the first place by bringing more and more casuals in.
Then have enough games to play, there's no need for every game to cater to them. If they want to play non-casual games they can use cheats. No need to validate their choice by placing the awesome button along with the regulars modes of play.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"I'm pretty sure that one or two of the devs have expressed that they would like to do an all new IE game (not a BG3), also."

BIO and EA owns the IE right so that would mean getting permission to use it to make an actual new game with that engine.


"Hard RPGs don't exist"

I bet you are one of those idiots who die multiple times on the same battle than claim the game is easy. FUCK OFF.


"D&D is/was a failure of a high-skill floor ruleset so it's difficult to tune content that doesn't brickwall newcomers/the obstinate that veterans can also enjoy. IWD2 was clearly trying to be a challenge though, Josh himself said that he wanted to deliver something that people who had already completed all the previous IE games would still find interesting.È

IWD2 is easier than all the other IE games except PST. D&D is no failure so FUCK OFF.


"First, Ive relate to a lot of games (look for my nickname in google to find me in several game related forums)"

Stop your bullshit bragging.


"I rarely find people that tell me infinity games are hard, on the contrary."

HAHAHAHA!
 

Waterd

Augur
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
228
To me a hard game is a game that put me in situations where i have to make decisions in regards to a goal, and making that decision, despite i have all the information needed to make a rational decision available to me, is gonna require of deep analysys. Think of chess and go that are hard games. The deeper analysis it requires to find very efficient or optimal plays, teh harder it is.

BG had a lot of exactly unfair situations, situations where you couldn´t possible know X, like instant death traps, or walk into a fight heavly underleveld with no information to avoid it. But other than that, it has extremly low % of fights that require decisions that require more than 2 seconds to find an excellent play.

A game may make you reload because it puts in situations that you can´t prevent (so analysis would no brought you to a better spot) or high amount of variance. And that doesn´t mean the game is hard. So the number of times you have to reload is not a direct indication on how hard the game is.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"o me a hard game is a game that put me in situations where i have to make decisions in regards to a goal, and making that decision, despite i have all the information needed to make a rational decision available to me, is gonna require of deep analysys. Think of chess and go that are hard games. The deeper analysis it requires to find very efficient or optimal plays, teh harder it is.

BG had a lot of exactly unfair situations, situations where you couldn´t possible know X, like instant death traps, or walk into a fight heavly underleveld with no information to avoid it. But other than that, it has extremly low % of fights that require decisions that require more than 2 seconds to find an excellent play.

A game may make you reload because it puts in situations that you can´t prevent (so analysis would no brought you to a better spot) or high amount of variance. And that doesn´t mean the game is hard. So the number of times you have to reload is not a direct indication on how hard the game is."

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom