Icewind Dale series compared to the Baldur's Gate series

[bussinrounds]

the action version of Baldurs Gate

I thought that was this ?

 

[Shaewaroz]

Played BG1 and BG2 before IWD and at first couldn't get over how restrictive it felt - just march from one battle to another without anything else to do. That moment in BG2 when Atkathla finally opened up, I felt like kid in a candy store - 9 large districts to explore in which ever order I like. And you could get out of the city and explore even further. And the game had interesting battles to boot. Later I learned to enjoy IWD but it took a long time and a different mindset. I guess if you use BG2 as a benchmark for other games you should expect to be disappointed a lot.

 

[SwiftCrack]

Yeah the early-big-city-model is great.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Also Verbeegs are great enemies and I can't help but smile when I see them, so IWD gets points for including them.

It's funny you should say this. I thought that section was great as well, but there was a guy embroiled in a massive boner competition earlier in the thread who used those exact encounters as an attack on the game's quality:

It involved going to dungeons and fighting the same battles again and again. Remember that dungeon full of verbeegs?

Which just goes to show how easy it is to end up going around in circles on a thread like this!

and:

I feel like you seem to attribute coherency issues as a "sense of humour" when in reality I think it was likely different designers working on different sections and a relatively short development cycle.

I can't imagine production was so disparate that such things were excluded from conversation and no-one talked to each other about anything, but I've no doubt some of the amusing one-off could be attributed to this scenario whereas some were likely intentional, it would be interesting to know which were which, in a dvd special features documentary kind of way.

So many inaccuracies, errors and assumptions, and can't even spell Baldur's Gate...

But I stated quite clearly:

Yeah man, getting a response out of people on here is like prodding a sandbag with fossilised turd sometimes. I'll write some crap for you, give you something to type about while you wonder why your bothering to type anything.

Which quite accurately summarises your post. Pretty much nails it.

Played...IWD and at first couldn't get over how restrictive it felt - just march from one battle to another without anything else to do.

Firstly, that doesn't fit the entire game, it's too generalised a statement to be accurate, there are plenty of examples of non-cambat entertainment, just not enough for you, comparatively. It's just lazy use of language. Further, when you get down to the bare bones of pretty much any RPG couldn't they pretty much all be described as just going from one battle to the next with not (comparatively) much inbetween? My recolections of the BG series could easily be described by me as just going from one battle to the next, in fact, it was the relentless inter-screen random encounters which contributed heavily to putting me off BG2 as compared to IWD. I felt that BG2 was adding too much pointless distraction to my ability to simply Get On With It. In fact the phrase "Get on with it" would be my personal generalised lazy summary of BG2.

I guess if you use BG2 as a benchmark for other games you should expect to be disappointed a lot.

I think if you used any single RPG as a benchmark you'd be in for huge dissappointment. One of the both great and terrible things about RPGs is that no two are ever greatly alike.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

It's hard to compare the two because they try to do different things, but I guess I should go with IWD because I've played through both of them multiple times, and I've only finished BG1 and 2 once with some serious "why am I even doing this?" moments near the end in BG1.

I didn't expect complex characters or deep story from IWD and I didn't get them, but BG isn't much better, most companions have as much character as warrior_guy#2 you create in IWD and some are annoying to boot (this MIGHT be because I've only played localized versions of BG games and many voices were really grating, but somehow that wasn't the case with IWD). I also hated how BG2 started me with a collection of characters I couldn't stand in BG1.

BG main advantage is the (semi)open world and discovering new locations and quests, something IWD is sorely lacking. Some of these locations feel disjointed, particularly in BG1, but it's still a fun experience. Unfortunately, once you get back to the main story it's not that great, at least in IWD I know the plot is an excuse to slaughter monsters and grab loot. I consider BG1 to be the weakest Infinity Engine game overall, and while I've had a lot of fun with the open world part of BG2 I somehow always get bored when I try to replay it, I guess I just exhausted the sidequests that were fun for me and I don't think the main plot is good enough to get through the weak parts again. With IWD I can always create a less optimized/typical party and try to beat the game with it. I would probably be disappointed with IWD if I expected less linear games, but they delivered pretty much what I wanted from a dungeon crawler on Infinity Engine. IWD is also far superior in music, art and the overall feel of the world.

So yeah, for me IWD > BG, at least as a series, to place just BG2 on a scale I'd have to play it again and I don't really want to.

 

[SwiftCrack]

You're free to not take the characters you don't like in BG2, or to dump them after the dungeon.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I just not removed IWD+HoW from an inventory, my original CDs being beyond salvation. Since I played it many times with all the usual suspects, I'm looking for new characters ideas. This thread being alive I'm using the opportunity to ask for some suggestions. Feel free to suggest some weird class/race builds.

 

[octavius]

There's not that many possible class builds in IWD 1.
Maybe try some themed party instead, based on favourite movies, books etc? I had fun with my Lord of the Rings themed party.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

Not a class/race idea (IWD1 is pretty restricted here), but I suggest not taking a Wizard, it changes the dynamics of battle completely. Suddenly the grenade items and druid offensive spells become very good and you don't get half of the no-brainer buff spells like haste. On the upside you no longer have a character doing nothing after first few turns of combat and dying to random goblin arrows in the early game. It definitely ramps up the difficulty in the late game.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

but I suggest not taking a Wizard

I tried that on a "no spellcasters" party run and it was indeed interesting. As opposed to many here, I don't care much about mages in IE games anyway, "hack and slash" is more my thing than "freeze and burn".

As for my game, I finally went with the stupidest multiclassing I could find, so :

Half-elf fighter/mage/thief
Half-elf fighter/mage/cleric
Gnome cleric/thief
Half-elf ranger/cleric
And a half-elf bard to keep that shitty crew alive.

I'll probably add a sixth character when I reach the HoW areas, it's fun to have a level 1 character in the late game. He gets fully geared immediately (provided you kept some of the loot for this very purpose) and levels up fast

 

[Krivol]

Half-elf fighter/mage/thief
Half-elf fighter/mage/cleric
Gnome cleric/thief
Half-elf ranger/cleric
And a half-elf bard to keep that shitty crew alive.

I'll probably add a sixth character when I reach the HoW areas, it's fun to have a level 1 character in the late game. He gets fully geared immediately (provided you kept some of the loot for this very purpose) and levels up fast

Ranger/Cleric is pretty potent, with spells from cleric and druid domain, rest will be... fun to play. I installed "ID in BG2" mod and trying to mess up with inquisitors, kensais and other OP classes (pretty easy so far).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Ranger/Cleric is pretty potent, with spells from cleric and druid domain,

I don't know, I played one on my first playthrough, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and I wasn't impressed. It being an IE game, having a ranger without a bow (because cleric) is a huge handicap and a cleric doesn't really benefit from the lousy spellcasting abilities of the ranger (you get your fist measly level 1 druid spell on your sixth level of ranger). As it is, I think the two classes are hurting each other more than they are helping. Cleric/druid would be closer to what you suggested if it could be done.

I installed "ID in BG2" mod and trying to mess up with inquisitors, kensais and other OP classes (pretty easy so far).

I heard of this several times, it's just ID converted to BG2 rules, kits and all that, right ? Not the mod that puts an insanely difficult version of ID in BG2 (via the teleporter of Irenicus starter's dungeon) ?.
EDIT : Nevermind my question, I was thinking of the Neverending Journey mod.

 

[Krivol]

Ranger/Cleric is pretty potent, with spells from cleric and druid domain,

I don't know, I played one on my first playthrough, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and I wasn't impressed. It being an IE game, having a ranger without a bow (because cleric) is a huge handicap and a cleric doesn't really benefit from the lousy spellcasting abilities of the ranger (you get your fist measly level 1 druid spell on your sixth level of ranger). As it is, I think the two classes are hurting each other more than they are helping. Cleric/druid would be closer to what you suggested if it could be done.

Well, in BG 2 cleric/ranger is extremly powerfull because of two weapon handling and few useful offensive spells. In ID it gets 1 extra attack per round IIRC, but still you get a cleric with better THAC0 and weapon specialization and also with few druid spells (so you don't have to bring any tree-lover with you).

And about ID in BG2 - it's fun (you can try your own BG2 team in battle-focused game) but rather unbalanced. Because of sub-classes abilities few "almost hard" early fights (like the one with ogre and orcs in first cave) are breeze. I didn't get any high-level ability yet, but this will probably breake the game (if there is enough experience to get there).

 

[belowmecoldhands]

This is a perfect thread for me. The Baldur's Gate and ICewind Dale series are on sale now on GoG. I want to get ONE one of them (there're 4), but I can't decide!! In the past, I always wanted to get Icewind Dale, because I tend to like tactical games--I really enjoyed Jagged Alliance 2 and even played it in the past year or two. I also like survival or high combat difficulty. I read Icewind Dale has harsh combat.

Another factor is I had Planescape Torment and tried it a couple times separated by a year or two. Both times I failed to keep playing because I lost interest. Supposedly, Planescape Torment is hte best game ever made. The trouble I had with it were a couple things. First, I didn't like the environment--its atmosphere. It was too dark, too different from the usual. Second, so much talking!! I felt like I could never relax and just play because things always seemed locked behind long conversations. It felt like the fun things were buried under stuff which wasn't fun.

I read that Icewind Dale is 75% combat and 25% story and Baldur's Gate is 50% story and 50% combat, while Planescape Torment is 75% story and 25% combat. That made sense to me, based on my Planescape Torment experience.

I looked at metacritic and Baldur's Gate 2 has phenomenal scores. Baldur's Gate 1 has high scores too. It seems they're more popular than the Icewind Dale series. Another thing is Baldur's Gate is the oldest, but I read it has more exploration in it. I like exploration. I also read it's harder in the low levels versus Baldur's Gate 2 and that appeals to me. However, Baldur's Gate 2 has more NPC interaction and overall is more updated and has more contents. Its score is probably higher too.

You'd think it's a no brainer because I said I like tactical fights and Icewind Dale clearly is more tactical in nature based on the reviews I've read. But there's yet another factor. I liked all the of NPC banter in Jagged Alliance 2. I liked they all had a personality. But in icewind Dale 1/2 you create all your party members, none of them have personality or banter. The Baldur's Gate series party members DO have some story and banter. Baldur's 2 NPCs have even more interaction, though.

Anyone can help me decide??? I'm leaning towards Baldur's Gate 1.

 

[hoverdog]

You'd think it's a no brainer because I said I like tactical fights and Icewind Dale clearly is more tactical in nature based on the reviews I've read.

Baldur's Gate with SCS beats Icewind Dale any time of the day when it comes to tactical fights.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Start with BG1, if you get bored, jump to BG2. Personally I finished BG2 before BG1 and it was still one of the best gameplay experiences of my life. But undoubtedly you will enjoy BG2 more if you have first completed BG1.

 

[octavius]

Baldur's Gate with SCS beats Icewind Dale any time of the day when it comes to tactical fights.

Yes, the BG games, especially BG1, benefit greatly from mods. Sadly there's not much for IWD.
But one difference between the series is that IWD feels more like a war game, in that you mostly fight larger numbers of weaker enemies, while in the BG games you meet more varied enemies, including adventurer parties and high level mages.

 

[CryptRat]

No reason to choose Icewind Dale if you particularly like exploration and don't prefer full party creation to companions, in my own opinion. I prefer Icewind Dale, but it's exactly because I highly prefer full party creation to interactions with companions. The atmosphere is also arguably better, but it is not one of the criteria you mentioned.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Are there any demos. I'd love to have a demo of BG1 and IWD1.

Somehow I don't think modding BG1/2 would make it better than IWD series, tactically speaking, but I could be wrong.

IWD2 is supposed to be even harder combat-wise than IWD1.

 

[Neanderthal]

Some good shit in IWD, setting could have been fucking sweet if fleshed out, but its fine as a fighting game. Soundtrack's sweet, itemisation's good, nice graphics and distinct backgrounds, level progression is just about right if you ask me, though better with a four man party, Druids are way OP.

Honestly i'd just get all that shit, cheap as chips on GOG so may as well go for it, you've got hundreds of hours of entertainment there.

 

[Courtier]

IWD2 is supposed to be even harder combat-wise than IWD1.

I'm currently replaying Icewind Dale 2, and it's HARD. Reload-20-times+rest-after-every-other-fight hard, and more frustrating to me than Jap Wizardry beheading simulators. In BG if you were having trouble with certain encounters, there were often other places to go and ways to get strong. In IWD you have to suck it up and git gud, because you're balls deep in a remote fortress. Most of the time you don't just hack through trash either- there's archers everywhere, enemy mages/clerics debilitating your party, warg riders hopping past the frontline to eat the mage etc. It's tense and you have to use every resource at your disposal. I've been using nearly every scroll and potion I find. In how many games does that ever happen?

 

[Sunsetspawn]

I liked they all had a personality.

In ID you assign your guys personality. It isn't much but it does the job.

I know I'm in the minority but BG2 just couldn't hold my interest. In terms of tactics, all of the characters come pre-rolled except the protagonist, so your only tactical decision really boils down to what spells to memorize. Although I suppose that's all that matters because all of the difficult fights just involve wizards and their hard-counters. I found combat to be clusterfuckish with spellcasting being the only determining factor. Also, there is a propensity for NPCs to constantly approach you while you're busy doing other shit for other NPCs. It always feels like there is a lot of who-gives-a-shit going on with a lot of yappy NPCs involved. Maybe BG1 is better, I have it but haven't tried it.

Icewind Dale, on the other hand, is much more geared to the combatfag. You roll errbody, from 1-6 people, and all builds and combinations are viable because .
Difficult fights are not going to be solely the result of a geriatric casting, "contingency," the moment he appears. I'm pretty sure you never have to drag non-magical weapons around with you, "just in case" (though I did). NPCs know only to speak when spoken to.

ID was much truer to that 70s D&D dungeon-crawl vibe. I can't essplain it, but I would get home from work all excited to play it while stupid DA2 sits around unfinished. I'm going to give the BG series another try, this time starting with the first, but right now I'm on Diablo 2.


Also, VERY IMPORTANT, if you play Icewind Dale DO NOT touch the expansion material until after you've completed the game. I went and did Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster somewhere in the middle of the game, and when I came back I steamrolled enemies and teabagged bosses. No, that expansion is not balance, that's a bad Joshy.

 

[Rivmusique]

Somehow I don't think modding BG1/2 would make it better than IWD series, tactically speaking, but I could be wrong.

Very. SCS is a wonderful thing.

I'm currently replaying Icewind Dale 2, and it's HARD. Reload-20-times+rest-after-every-other-fight hard ... It's tense and you have to use every resource at your disposal. I've been using nearly every scroll and potion I find. In how many games does that ever happen?

Hyperbole, but yeah, it's probably the toughest vanilla IE game. Shame most of the best bits are in chapter one then you have long periods of mostly dull encounters for 2 chapters. Still a very good game, one of the better IE games imo.

 

[laclongquan]

I tried that on a "no spellcasters" party run and it was indeed interesting. As opposed to many here, I don't care much about mages in IE games anyway, "hack and slash" is more my thing than "freeze and burn".

As for my game, I finally went with the stupidest multiclassing I could find, so :

Half-elf fighter/mage/thief
Half-elf fighter/mage/cleric
Gnome cleric/thief
Half-elf ranger/cleric
And a half-elf bard to keep that shitty crew alive.

I'll probably add a sixth character when I reach the HoW areas, it's fun to have a level 1 character in the late game. He gets fully geared immediately (provided you kept some of the loot for this very purpose) and levels up fast

A Deep Gnome Rogue/Fighter

A most stealthy scout, and master archer. This tiny, tiny toon is scouting out all the locations on the map and rarely get caught. Thanks to her I know that IWD2 teleport ambushers and reinforcement on trigger, not preplaced. And master archer because backstab with her is a fool course. She always engage at range.

A bonus is that she suppress level average of the whole party at least 1. You always meet enemies (and loots) slightly better than you expect.

 

[Abhay Saini]

Because fuck balance that's why (and i'm playing a game not reading a book).

Right. Balance and linearity are for those who are fed by a spoon. They used to have an artefact called television they stared at, drooling like hell in the same time. Now they still have that television but they have an artefact in their hands called console controller, and an awesome button on it. So, now they bash that button and keep drooling. Thus nothing much has changed.

If you dont like some part of a game, then you should not waste time playing it.
Linear games dont fuck around. Illusion of choice, is worse. It wastes more time.
If you want to skip portions of game, then you are wasting your time.