Icewind Dale series compared to the Baldur's Gate series

[Infinitron]

IWD2 had bad writing because Sawyer literally had to come up with an outline in a day, peace.

Those two things aren't necessarily related, y'know.

 

[Roguey]

IWD2 had bad writing because Sawyer literally had to come up with an outline in a day, peace.

Those two things aren't necessarily related, y'know.

Time has very much to do with quality when it comes to writing, it's an iterative process. Avellone backs me up:

Lastly, this is also something that set Torment apart – we had a good chunk of the story, dialogues and the flow of the narrative laid out before production began. This was key. If I had the power and funding to sit down for a year and script a spiritual successor out, then we built from there, I would do that, but that process is something no publisher would agree to – you're constantly under the gun, either as an internal or external developer (Josh Sawyer had to write the Icewind Dale 2 storyline over the course of a weekend, for example – he did a great job, but that's not an ideal way to write a story). Generally, you have 2-4 weeks.

 

[Infinitron]

IWD2 had bad writing because Sawyer literally had to come up with an outline in a day, peace.

Those two things aren't necessarily related, y'know.

Time has very much to do with quality when it comes to writing, it's an iterative process. Avellone backs me up:

Lastly, this is also something that set Torment apart – we had a good chunk of the story, dialogues and the flow of the narrative laid out before production began. This was key. If I had the power and funding to sit down for a year and script a spiritual successor out, then we built from there, I would do that, but that process is something no publisher would agree to – you're constantly under the gun, either as an internal or external developer (Josh Sawyer had to write the Icewind Dale 2 storyline over the course of a weekend, for example – he did a great job, but that's not an ideal way to write a story). Generally, you have 2-4 weeks.

But pre-production outline != the totality of writing written during the production of the game

 

[Roguey]

IWD2 had bad writing because Sawyer literally had to come up with an outline in a day, peace.

Those two things aren't necessarily related, y'know.

Time has very much to do with quality when it comes to writing, it's an iterative process. Avellone backs me up:

Lastly, this is also something that set Torment apart – we had a good chunk of the story, dialogues and the flow of the narrative laid out before production began. This was key. If I had the power and funding to sit down for a year and script a spiritual successor out, then we built from there, I would do that, but that process is something no publisher would agree to – you're constantly under the gun, either as an internal or external developer (Josh Sawyer had to write the Icewind Dale 2 storyline over the course of a weekend, for example – he did a great job, but that's not an ideal way to write a story). Generally, you have 2-4 weeks.

But pre-production outline != the totality of writing written during the production of the game

SCO's complaint was about how noncohesive the areas felt and they had to come up with and lock in all the areas they had to visit in a 24 hour period.

 

[sea]

Also IWD2 had no cohesion at all after the bridge fight. Suddenly... Chult!... Ice Temple... Ice Temple invaded by Tannari... A village with a child eating witch! (seriously?)... A evil forest!... A temple of sorceror monks OF DEATH in the middle of the glacier... A idiot wanting to experience being a ghoul... Sexploitation of reptile race mating habits (would you want to go free? This guy didn't)... A time loop in a volcano society!... Bane is behind it... A tragic story (the female is guilty since she doesn't want to be forgiven).

Oh come on, it's not like the first Icewind Dale was very cohesive. It was basically an excuse to visit one ridiculously oversized dungeon after the other, and in fact the locations you visited were even way more nonsensical and improbable.

 

[Stokowski]

IWD2's noncohesive areas were largely due to them being designed and implemented by different designers. For example the Ice Temple and the Dragon's Eye time loop were designed by the same guy, and you can see it in the "re-iterative" approach to working through those areas, the dialogue full of non-sequiturs, etc. Much of what is unique in the design of those areas came from this bloke (sorry I'm can't be arsed to look up his name) getting Sawyer's blessing to try and stretch the IE's area scripting functions - previously never really put to work in an IE game - to the limit.

If you're getting different talent to take the same responsibilities for different areas of the game, the seams are going to show -- though I hardly consider this among IWD2's worst faults.

 

[Glyрhwraith]

BG was mostly tearing through packs of random-generated enemies, hoping to find the next point of interest, sidequest, amusing dialogue, or plot advancement before your patience ran out. BG2 was a big improvement since it dispensed with outdoor areas that aren't part of some sort of big sidequest, but packs of monsters to kill still started to grate on your nerves after a while.

IWD is nothing BUT tearing through packs of random-generated enemies, and since there is little to no story, plot, or characters, there's little to no reason to bother with it. Unless you like clicking on enemy models and watching your party hack it to pieces. It's essentially a hack-and-slash arcade, where random unconnected areas exist solely to be scourged of life by your personality-free heroes. Diablo felt more wholesome than this.

 

[Infinitron]

Glyphwraith

Joined: Monday
Posts: 5

 

[Mikko Moilanen]

Glyphwraith

Joined: Monday
Posts: 5

Are ye a bot, for I think ye did the same to me :D

 

[Infinitron]

It's a tradition.

 

[hoverdog]

Glyphwraith

Joined: Monday
Posts: 5

Sure is better than the original one.

 

[Wyrmlord III]

By the way, the dual classing in these games makes me rage.

Supposing you are playing BG2 and you want your Bhaalspawn to be a Kensai/Thief. So you will be a Kensai badass till - say - level 9.Then when you decide to multi-class into Thief, you lose all your Kensai fighting abilities. So now you have lost all your fighting ability, and what is left is a crappy level 1 Thief. How will you recover your Kensai fighting abilities? By taking your Thief to level 10. Unless you are playing solo, your thief will probably reach level 10 by the end of the game during the last bossfight. So you'll be playing a cripple who will suddenly becomes powerful at the last moment. That's a lousy payoff.

To give the right analogy, supposing you are a hurdle runner and you decide to take bicycling for the first time in your life. You ride the bike and find you are very slow and jerky. You get off the bike and then try running hurdles again. Now on the hurdles you keep slipping. Apparently, you can't do hurdles anymore until you have mastered riding a bicycle - and for now, you are a crappy biker.

I can understand levelling penalties. But this?

 

[Mikko Moilanen]

By the way, the dual classing in these games makes me rage.

Supposing you are playing BG2 and you want your Bhaalspawn to be a Kensai/Thief. So you will be a Kensai badass till - say - level 9.Then when you decide to multi-class into Thief, you lose all your Kensai fighting abilities. So now you have lost all your fighting ability, and what is left is a crappy level 1 Thief. How will you recover your Kensai fighting abilities? By taking your Thief to level 10. Unless you are playing solo, your thief will probably reach level 10 by the end of the game during the last bossfight. So you'll be playing a cripple who will suddenly becomes powerful at the last moment. That's a lousy payoff.

To give the right analogy, supposing you are a hurdle runner and you decide to take bicycling for the first time in your life. You ride the bike and find you are very slow and jerky. You get off the bike and then try running hurdles again. Now on the hurdles you keep slipping. Apparently, you can't do hurdles anymore until you have mastered riding a bicycle - and for now, you are a crappy biker.

I can understand levelling penalties. But this?

Well you don't need to explain that in detail.

I never got why dualing has been made like that. It made no sense, and no matter how hard I tried to think, it still made no sense at all. It must be some very peculiar game mechanics/balancing issue/retardo poop.

Glad you mentioned it anyway. Will have to remember that if I write Dragon Quest III review.

 

[Carrion]

Getting a fighter from level 9 to level 10: 250 000 XP required
Getting a thief from level 1 to level 10: 160 000 XP required

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Yeah, it takes a whole BG2 to level a thief to lvl10, I see you know what you're talking about.

 

[tuluse]

Getting a fighter from level 9 to level 10: 250 000 XP required
Getting a thief from level 1 to level 10: 160 000 XP required

This really doesn't undermine his point that it's kind of stupid. It's one thing 3E did a much better job with, where you can just add levels as you please from any class where you meet the requirements.

 

[Wise Emperor]

Hell, IWD 2 was quick moneygrab, but seriously, if only we could have such a moneygrabs.

I always loved that little nice detail, in which after killing halforc Bane cleric with MY Bane cleric, appeared a message "Bane is pleased for killing his weak servant" or smt along the lines + 2WIS. And there were couple of that kind of cool small details.

Wyrmlord III

Consult: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

 

[Psquit]

i thought IWD was BG clone for the diablo crowd

 

[laclongquan]

I thought so too. when you only want to make a battle group to smash them flat, IWD makes it happen.

Of course, when you want to build something, improve your base or whatever, IWD is lacking.

 

[Psquit]

I thought so too. when you only want to make a battle group to smash them flat, IWD makes it happen.

Of course, when you want to build something, improve your base or whatever, IWD is lacking.

well, it is a fun game... it had tony jay as a warriors ghost

 

[Murk]

Yes, when I want to play an RTS I too tend to not play IWD.

 

[Turjan]

Oh come on, it's not like the first Icewind Dale was very cohesive. It was basically an excuse to visit one ridiculously oversized dungeon after the other, and in fact the locations you visited were even way more nonsensical and improbable.

Indeed. It was especially obvious in Kuldahar. "Please, go and look here". One dungeon later: "Nothing? Oh, bummer. Then please, go and look there." Rinse and repeat.

 

[Mother Russia]

IWD was great. Very addictive.

IWDII was good, but not as good as IWD and felt rushed. I really wish they hadn't gone 3e, but had gone for Kits like they were planning. The Landeshkant sounded cool.

NWN was the only real 3e rpg. Yes it sucked for single player and as an rpg, but it implemented the rules well.

 

[DemonKing]

NWN was the only real 3e rpg. Yes it sucked for single player and as an rpg, but it implemented the rules well.

I think some rabid TOEE fanboys may disagree with you there...

 

[TheNizzo]

By the way, the dual classing in these games makes me rage.

Supposing you are playing BG2 and you want your Bhaalspawn to be a Kensai/Thief. So you will be a Kensai badass till - say - level 9.Then when you decide to multi-class into Thief, you lose all your Kensai fighting abilities. So now you have lost all your fighting ability, and what is left is a crappy level 1 Thief. How will you recover your Kensai fighting abilities? By taking your Thief to level 10. Unless you are playing solo, your thief will probably reach level 10 by the end of the game during the last bossfight. So you'll be playing a cripple who will suddenly becomes powerful at the last moment. That's a lousy payoff.

To give the right analogy, supposing you are a hurdle runner and you decide to take bicycling for the first time in your life. You ride the bike and find you are very slow and jerky. You get off the bike and then try running hurdles again. Now on the hurdles you keep slipping. Apparently, you can't do hurdles anymore until you have mastered riding a bicycle - and for now, you are a crappy biker.

I can understand levelling penalties. But this?

mage is a great dual, you can hoard billions of scrolls and skip tons of the risky early levels.