Icewind Dale series compared to the Baldur's Gate series

[attackfighter]

Forcing him to stay is kind of a morale thing, no? I'm sure there's no consequence to it but I was usually not too unhappy to get rid of 'em. As for Cernd I always thought he had to go take care of the grove or something. Still, I never really used them -- I preferred to make my own characters via the multiplayer trick and just recruit in game NPCs for their quests, then to abandon them like the pieces of meat that they are.

BG 1's dungeons may not be very long but most are completely pointless, or are made tedious for the sake of tediousness. Even the whole cloakwood thing is dull with only the end being worth while because of the strong party you encounter before entering the mine and the actual boss fight.

With Keldorn he asks to leave your party for a few days to spend time with his family, then when you see him again he says that he's planning on giving up adventuring for good but that he's willing to help you complete your quest first. You can then keep him or not (it's obviously more honourable to let him go, but the way the dialogue paints it it's not a huge deal and everyone's understanding if you want him to stay).

With Cernd you just drop his kid off at the druid grove or something. I've only done his quest once, so I can't remember the specifics. Although one thing I do remember about his quest is that you can abuse some game mechanics in order to kill the demi-lich and that on the demi-lich there's an item called "Cernd's child", most likely a leftover from what was intended to be a longer questline. I found it interesting at the time.

The one issue I have with BG2's NPCs is that they all come pre-dual classed, so you can't really experiment with all of the cool new kits and whatnot that BG2 has, except for with your main character. Making an entirely user made party is a good way to bypass that and experiment with most new classes without having to dedicate an entire playthrough to each one.

 

[Johannes]

The Nature's Beauty spell makes druids in BG2 worthwhile.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Ok started playing for a few minutes. I like so far...but are there any magical resolution mods which help with the characters looking like absolute shit? Sheesh.

 

[DemonKing]

No need to argue any more guys...IGN has done our job for us:

http://au.ign.com/top/rpgs#1

Seriously though IWD can't even make a list of the top 100 CRPGS of all time? WTF? If they stripped out all the JRPGs and MMOS I guess it would be a shoe in but the original is at least better than the sequel...which did make the list.

Personally if I had to rank all the BG and IWD titles it would probably be:

1. IWD (great combat, graphics, music and a surprisingly complex plot)
2. BG (a more open, explore at your leisure pace and a welcome return to form for D&D CRPGS after a string of flops)
3. BG2 (Reasonably enjoyable but combat suffers from the high-level blues particularly with regards to dealing with wizards, a very broad brush employed with regards to D&D lore though)
4. IWD2 (Obviously a bit rushed with many areas from the original game reused, clunky and/or buggy puzzles that don't work well and not as graphiclly appealling as the original - ice temple anyone?)

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

The best thing is the random chance Keldorn will try to murder Viconia when she's in your party and there's absolutely nothing you can do other than to reload (you lose Viconia forever if you don't).

Really the party banter in BG2 and the PCs in general were awesome and the best parts about the game. Playing it with a custom pre-made party or solo-ing to me would just be... well, like role-playing in Tetris?

 

[octavius]

The best thing is the random chance Keldorn will try to murder Viconia when she's in your party and there's absolutely nothing you can do other than to reload (you lose Viconia forever if you don't).

Survival of the fittest in practice.
Viconia was always the first to die in a hard fight.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

BG2>IWD>>>>>IWD2 + BG

I don't give enough damn about the last two games to objectively decide which one is better.

And people here do tend to have the weirdest opinions. Claiming that IWD is better because BG overuses trashy fights? IWD is basically a roller-coaster of trashmob-themed dungeon after a trashmob-themed dungeon, including the most trashy ones like goblins, orcs and skeletons. Not like it's an inherently bad thing, but the biggest advantage of BG2 is that it tries to actively combat the low points of IE's rtwp d&d. It has enemies resistant to magic, resistant to physical damage, resistant to various weapons, enemies that can level drain you, instakill you etc. Basically you have to prepare and try different approaches, magic is not uberpowerful and what is more there are quite a few enemies that are very skilled at using magic themselves (too bad they pussied out a bit with making items like the Cloak of reflection available). This is completely not the case with IWD - the shittiest parts of the IE's rtwp are 100% prevailing there and you can basically run the whole using the same, most basically cheesy yet legit, tactic like webbing+clouding. There are a few enemies that can give you some status ailments and that's about it. Other failures that were partially amended in BG2, but are there in IWD are melee being boring and useless when compared to ranged and magic builds (even more evident on higher difficulty levels where the only use for melee class is being a decoy and still magic summons do that better) or thieves being completely pointless apart from opening locks and disarming traps so there is absolutely no point in creating a pure thief.

Now that I think of it, the atmosphere and presentation is actually what makes IWD decent, cause the game itself is indeed pretty meh.

I completely agree about BG's story and writing being much inferior though - I can't stomach the shitty NPCs in those games, fortunately creating your party is the best way to play and you don't miss anything notable from the gameplay perspective.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Baldur's gate is children's story. IWD is honest Hack and Slash and written better. I vote IWD series.

 

[Murk]

The one issue I have with BG2's NPCs is that they all come pre-dual classed, so you can't really experiment with all of the cool new kits and whatnot that BG2 has, except for with your main character. Making an entirely user made party is a good way to bypass that and experiment with most new classes without having to dedicate an entire playthrough to each one.

My point exactly. Some of the more gimmicky kits aren't even used in the game so if you want to try 'em you either replay with a dozen characters or just MP-workaround it, which is what I prefer to do. I also liked to make my own kits when I was feeling up to it, or to check for what mods there are. People have a habit of making either useless kits that are redundant or imbalanced ones but there's some decent garbage out there.

 

[Johannes]

The best thing is the random chance Keldorn will try to murder Viconia when she's in your party and there's absolutely nothing you can do other than to reload (you lose Viconia forever if you don't).

Survival of the fittest in practice.
Viconia was always the first to die in a hard fight.

Really? Innate magic resistance made her a pretty useful at tanking many things. Also the +constitution girdle is made for her.

Mages had a much worse tendency to die for me, when I couldn't be bothered to always deck them up in full protection half a dozen spells because that's tedious and it'd cut severely on the slots for offence too. At least when I wasn't just hiding them and using a Project Image instead.

 

[Mrowak]

Why all the hate towards Icewind Dale 2? I don't get it at all. To me gameplaywise it was vastly superior to the first part, even though there was less content, and much of it was reused. I loved that they implemented D&D 3.0 - which worked quite nicely. I also liked that the game recognised skills like Diplomacy, as well checked for additional factors like character's race or class in dialogues much more often than in IE1 (in fact more often than in BG series). It was cool to have at least some alternative options of doing quests. And the fact that there actually were more puzzles in the dungeons instead of running around for macguffins. People say it was buggy, but I didn't notice that. Must be becuae I played superior potato version of the game. : x

Anyway:

1. BG2
2. Icewind Dale 2
3. Icewind Dale 1
4. BG1

 

[Johannes]

Really the party banter in BG2 and the PCs in general were awesome and the best parts about the game. Playing it with a custom pre-made party or solo-ing to me would just be... well, like role-playing in Tetris?

If you really want to have a custom party while keeping the banter... Changing peoples classes either through a mod or with ShadowKeeper isn't hard. Turn Imoen into a sorcerer and Anomen to a ranger/cleric, or whatever the fuck you feel like.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Really the party banter in BG2 and the PCs in general were awesome and the best parts about the game. Playing it with a custom pre-made party or solo-ing to me would just be... well, like role-playing in Tetris?

If you really want to have a custom party while keeping the banter... Changing peoples classes either through a mod or with ShadowKeeper isn't hard. Turn Imoen into a sorcerer and Anomen to a ranger/cleric, or whatever the fuck you feel like.

Sounds nifty.

My inside powergamer was a bit sad how the only "pure mage" option was Edwin. Still, there was charm to these shitty suboptimal "thief/mage" etc. combos, they really reflected the spirit of Forgotton Realms setting and the "realism" of it so to speak.

I remember how curious it was to see how guys/gals like Elminster, Symbul etc. all had Fighter, Thief etc. suboptimal classes levels to reflect their "life experience". There were pretty much no "pure archmages" (with the occasional exceptions, I think Szass Tam or whatever his name only had spellcaster levels), unlike the powergaming DnD games.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Why all the hate towards Icewind Dale 2?

What hate? Anyway, for me IWD2 is a definition of a pointless sequel. Yeah, IWD was an OK game, but the formula has run dry with it. And then you come back much later with more of the same (literally the same in some parts) and expect people to clap? And that game was basically a rushed money grab, though of course many people don't like to admit it, as it was a child of the cult Black Isle.

I loved that they implemented D&D 3.0 - which worked quite nicely.

Nah, not really, it was quite bugged, many feats didn't work at all or were useless. The worst thing however is that it had minimal impact on the IE's rtwp combat formula. It played the same, arguably even worse due to the fact that you had sorcerers, so you could get optimal spells quickly making magic even more op (IWD2 followed the encounter design of IWD directly, having maps filled with themed creatures that had no response whatsoever to the most basic tactics that your average retard could come up with after wrapping up the first few quests).

 

[Mikko Moilanen]

The main char in BG was not "chosen one" but one of the hundreds of siblings of the lord of murder, as the end animation implies. That little detail in the end made the game more epic than anything before or later up to this day. You fought the shit out of everything, met your brother and beated him and his fanatical cult followers with your cult followers, and then saw that fuck, this was not even the beginning. The beginning was Lord of Murder know when and there are hundreds like you. Not chosen. Just a small part of evolution.

Semantics. For all intents and purposes it's the usual chosen one/divine birthright/etc. angle that is the ultimate fantasy protagonist cliche. Sure, you're not "chosen" in the sense that nobody specifically selected you to be a hero etc., but it's that same old idea that you have some special power inside of you that makes you better and more powerful than everyone else. Both games have their plots based around that device.

Regarding lenght of dungeons - GET THE HELL OUT OF MY LAWN. WoW "heroic" coffee shit instances are that way ------------->

What the fuck are you even talking about? I say I like Icewind Dale, which is one long 20-25 hour dungeon crawl, and suddenly I'm an ADHD 'tard who loves World of Warcraft instances? How does that even make sense?

Baldur's Gate does have a lot of overlong dungeons full of trash mobs. It's not really so much a function of length, though, but pacing and variety. There are a few good ones, but there are also plenty of dungeons that are fucking shit and exist solely to pad out the game. The entire endgame is basically that, complete with a literal giant maze to walk through. Areas like Nashkel Mine and Cloakwood are padded out quite a bit as well, and most of the overland areas have very little of interest except 1-2 enemy types to slaughter and a couple of mini-quests. Tales of the Sword Coast was much, much better, as was Baldur's Gate 2, which I already said.

This is why I like Icewind Dale more. It is a dungeon crawl and it is "epic" (you sure like that word, don't you), but it also has enough different enemies, variety in environments, etc. such that it never becomes monotonous.

If you infiltrate kobold caves you should expect to run on many traps those cowardly things plant around - especially if their now new cave was just a while ago a mine. If you infiltrate a kobold lair you should expect to face at worst hundreds of kobolds trying to beat you by sheer numbers. Anything less is jut lame arcade coffee faggot shit.

Okay? And if something is fun for 5 minutes, it's automatically fun for 50 minutes as well? I'm not a fan of having my time wasted by being made to do the same shit over and over again in a game because it's "more epic" (or rather: the designers could reuse the same art assets and copy-paste enemies and tack on another X hours of gameplay).

I hate you. You whine about Deep Roads in Dragon Age, which managed to make impression of epic dwarven culture, and as a result we get so very shit arcade coffee fag games designed for asshole ADHDs.

What the hell are you even on about? I thought the Deep Roads was a bit padded (it needed a few more interesting side quests and enemy encounters), but I like Dragon Age and the Deep Roads area a lot more than most other people on this forum.

Really. Do you faggot wow instance 1000 times more and never touch single player RPGs.

Full disclosure: I have played World of Warcraft at most 10 hours, over a period of many, many years. I thought the game was complete and utter crap.

Well, I am not going to argue with you about was there absurdly long dungeons in BG or not. Subjective as it might be, I guess we just have different standards and I have too much shit to do, and after that I rather have fun in Dragon Warrior 3 instead of arguing here :D Just a pity you belong to the masses and games are therefore made for you and not for me. I would be much more happy if I would belong to the masses and games would be made for me. I would get HC stuff and lulz as I would read you crying in forums how this and that "is too hard."

I agree though in that Durlag's Tower is excellent as was the werewolf island. "You don't belong" - WTF??? :D Obviously freaks around and now need to investigate what is happening and crush them mercilessly with an iron fist :D

(Regarding memes, trophes, and stuff - they exist in every game. Some just make better use of them, that is less lame. Without Bhaalspawn you would not had had the adventure and story as it was. That said, you could shape your own story and live up to the heritage of Lord of Murder. Sarevok was The Evil Mastermind and all you do goodiers were just shit.)

 

[MicoSelva]

In IWD, you (...) create your full party. (...) Or you could dare to be awesome, and play the game solo (which should be a rite of passage somewhere.)

I need to try this someday.

 

[Infinitron]

I too had a lot of fun with IWD2. It didn't feel rushed to me.

But it has been a while.

 

[Murk]

I got to the end as a solo pure fighter in IWD 2 once, making liberal abuse of the Expertise feat (+5 ac for -5 to hit). Once I got to the shattered hand however the spell casting enemies and demons were just a bit too much to solo in melee, despite being a fuggin' beast.

Later, I re solo'd as a fighter(1) cleric(29) and again as a thief(2) and wizard(28). Life went much easier.

I remember casting circle of bones in the goblin fort and hoping the bastards would die as they swarmed me.

 

[ohWOW]

I prefer IWD 1 over any BG. Dat atmosphere mang. I prefer BG1 over BG2, just because.
IWD 2 was just meh.

 

[Cenobyte]

I prefer the IWD series over BG. IWD was my first RPG as well and had a superb atmosphere and very solid gameplay. The music, storyline and landscapes were also very fitting. IWD2 was also quite nice, especially the attempt to integrate D&D 3.0 rules into the game. But at the same time, with all those additions and new content, the limitations of the Infinity Engine became quite clear.
After playing both IWDs, I continued to play PST and the BG games. I like the more or less open-world approach and most of the story in BG1, but the game never comes near the atmosphere of IWD. BG2 is better and has a distinct atmosphere of its own, but sometimes the dialogues and the pseudo-drama were too much over the top for me.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Ok started playing for a few minutes. I like so far...but are there any magical resolution mods which help with the characters looking like absolute shit? Sheesh.

Not sure what you mean, but have you installed the expansion(s)? Heart of Winter gives you higher resolutions. And there's no point to not install them.

 

[SCO]

IWD2 sucks. Not because it's 'combat focused' but because it's a linear grind without even the illusion of agency like BG. It's even more linear than the underdark/sharktown/asylum part of BG2 or ToB and that is universally panned by BG2 fans.
There is also some rather pathetic quests there (IWD2). Dead cats, tower of Hanoi and ghoul making potions vs 3 way vampire-romance resurrection which is better and why durr

IWD 2 had the seed of a good game before Dragon's Eye, on the village where the twins lived and where the evil party was buried. Pity they couldn't make the game more of that instead of boring Bane plot 3256 to take over the world and getting lost on randomized forests.

BG1 even has a much superior dungeon to any in IWD2 - Durlag's Tower which somehow manages fine to make sense and be a worthy storyfag and combat experience, with no more frills than a few ghosts and a demon - including Dragon's Eye herp-a-derp time-loop (IMO). Granted, BG2 also has the fairly horrible Watcher's Keep (among others like the retarded fire temple).

I was pleasantly surprised by other parts of TotSC like the werewolf island - it's a situation where getting the 'happy' outcome is damn hard, and the islanders were sympathetic (the 'reveal' is a bit dumb as is your character for not getting it ages ago).
TotSC is a expansion that made the base game better - ToB is not.

 

[Infinitron]

Ok started playing for a few minutes. I like so far...but are there any magical resolution mods which help with the characters looking like absolute shit? Sheesh.

http://www.gibberlings3.net/widescreen/
http://www.gibberlings3.net/iwd_fixpack/ (hotfix: http://sasha-altherin.webs.com/icewinddaleseriesmods.htm)
http://www.gibberlings3.net/ub_iwd/
http://www.gibberlings3.net/daletweak/index.php

G3 mirror site: http://www.camagna.net/g3mirror/g3_emergency_mirror.html

 

[Surf Solar]

Why is linear=bad?

 

[SCO]

Because fuck balance that's why (and i'm playing a game not reading a book).