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Grand Strategy Imperator: Rome - the new grand strategy from Paradox

fantadomat

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Thanks for the write up. Gonna skip this game for sure now. Real shame too, could have been something good. Crusader King political intrigue but with a Roman setting, with also a bigger/better focus on war...
CK2's battle system is the best of them all,not this pile of shit that they call battles in this garbage mage. Battles run for months with enough time to bring reinforcements from the other end of your empire :roll:. I just finished my ROME game in "Imperium Universalis " and it is far superior than this "game",i urge anyone to try it out over this shit.
 

Goliath

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Thanks for the write up. Gonna skip this game for sure now. Real shame too, could have been something good. Crusader King political intrigue but with a Roman setting, with also a bigger/better focus on war...
Well, there is still hope. We can be pretty sure that if the game sells well (and I think it will) Paradox will release DLC after DLC, slowly adding more and more complexity to the game, including to the character system.

I mean vanilla EU4 was a simplistic map painter too. All the complexity the game has nowadays was added by DLCs. So you might still get "Crusader Kings: Rome".. after a couple of DLCs.

The foundations are there. But again, right now the NPCs seem to be utterly passive. E.g. because he can't take loans in this game Florry used another way to quickly get a lot of gold for mercs.. He imprisoned the heads of the richest families in his realm - without justification - and then made them pay to be released from prison. Massive loyalty hit of course. Affecting the most powerful and influential people in the realm. Yet.. zero consequences.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well, there is still hope. We can be pretty sure that if the game sells well (and I think it will) Paradox will release DLC after DLC, slowly adding more and more complexity to the game, including to the character system.

Yeah, true. But I'm totally burnt out on that model. If Crusader Kings 2 is anything to go by, I would have to pay 300 euros to get the complete game somewhere down the line.
 

Goliath

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Florry will do a world conquest on release day
florryworry-profile_image-4480dd34528887bf-300x300.jpeg

His primary donor - joepro99 - paid $1000 for that. In form of Twitch subscriptions so Florry only gets $500 of that but it was still enough to convince him.

joepro99 said he will try to sign up Arumba too to turn the whole thing into a competition i.e. who gets the achievement first.

Don't know if Arumba can be bought that cheaply too, though. Or if he can even stream for that long. Florry can stream for over 12 hours straight and that's probably how long a world conquest will take.

And yes, I once watched a 12 hour Florry stream, and I regret nothing. Watching him play EU4 / Imperator is way more fun than doing it yourself.
 

hivemind

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Florry will do a world conquest on release day
florryworry-profile_image-4480dd34528887bf-300x300.jpeg

His primary donor - joepro99 - paid $1000 for that. In form of Twitch subscriptions so Florry only gets $500 of that but it was still enough to convince him.

joepro99 said he will try to sign up Arumba too to turn the whole thing into a competition i.e. who gets the achievement first.
capitalism.jpg
 

Agame

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Well, there is still hope. We can be pretty sure that if the game sells well (and I think it will) Paradox will release DLC after DLC, slowly adding more and more complexity to the game, including to the character system.

Yeah, true. But I'm totally burnt out on that model. If Crusader Kings 2 is anything to go by, I would have to pay 300 euros to get the complete game somewhere down the line.

Releasing unfinished games with promises to complete them eg. AAA companies, or the Paradox 'endless DLC money train' has become the industry norm. And its bullshit, but to many people are ok with it or in fact even support it.

No.

Its time to stop.gif
 

fantadomat

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Well, there is still hope. We can be pretty sure that if the game sells well (and I think it will) Paradox will release DLC after DLC, slowly adding more and more complexity to the game, including to the character system.

Yeah, true. But I'm totally burnt out on that model. If Crusader Kings 2 is anything to go by, I would have to pay 300 euros to get the complete game somewhere down the line.

Releasing unfinished games with promises to complete them eg. AAA companies, or the Paradox 'endless DLC money train' has become the industry norm. And its bullshit, but to many people are ok with it or in fact even support it.

No.

Its time to stop.gif
Ahhh,i am not sure if they will manage to sell this game to many people. Even hardcore fans are getting tired of it. Will be interesting too see how much player base gathers. Looking at florry playing,it is pretty shit even by paradox's standards. Fuck,the whole naval shit is unfinished,you can't even board troops on to ships while they are docked,you have to make them leave the docks and then march them on the ships. Fuck,it is something that was in the games for a long fucking time!
 

Fedora Master

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I don't think it's deliberate DLC whoring by Paradox. Knowing them they truly don't know what to do with their game. This smacks of another Stellaris where they will keep revamping core features willy-nilly to see what sticks.
 

Agame

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I don't think it's deliberate DLC whoring by Paradox. Knowing them they truly don't know what to do with their game. This smacks of another Stellaris where they will keep revamping core features willy-nilly to see what sticks.

Have to agree with you there. WTF is going on at Paradox, I dont follow who works there, have they lost major personal over the years? Cos it seems like they have no idea what they are doing, or as I said before they are in lazy maintenance mode and just dont give a fuck anymore about pushing the genre.

Ahhh,i am not sure if they will manage to sell this game to many people.

Will be interesting to be sure, I have a feeling the game will sell fine, there are a massive amount of people who just like map painting and actually get annoyed when there are any mechanics included in the game that force them to use their brain. This looks like Paradoxs ultimate edition of: "Super Fun Casul Map Paint History Game".
 

fantadomat

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Will be interesting to be sure, I have a feeling the game will sell fine, there are a massive amount of people who just like map painting and actually get annoyed when there are any mechanics included in the game that force them to use their brain. This looks like Paradoxs ultimate edition of: "Super Fun Casul Map Paint History Game".
Oh i do like map painting,most of my games end up with a world conquest. But still the game looks shallow as fuck,there is nothing in it. It have less shit than in CK2 and EU4 on release,let alone vicy.
 

Fedora Master

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It's not even particularly historically accurate dammit. Every religion is exactly the same, culture has barely any impact either, there are no specific tactics for certain nations.
 

fantadomat

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Map painting is fine, its kind of the point of these games, but like you say its a problem when they remove all the challenging elements.
Challenge is strongly said,once you get a the cheep parts of the game,you have no problem blobbing. Most of the modern EU4 blobbing is about using cheap ways to circumvent the buffer mechanics like AE,overextension and mana drain. At this point i am tired of all this shit and just delete the AE and put 12 months of coring,a month of culture converting per taxbase,disable all the merc swarm and put AI on aggressive. The game have become too generic and balanced/boring. You just don't get the epicness of older version,like making big fleet with byz and keeping the kabab at bay,or going for jap world conquest without any westernazation. The game lacks all kind of flavour in my opinion. This pile of shit is even worst,i doubt that i will play more than a few games to get a feel of it. I dropped stellaris after a single game because of the same reasons,and never picked it up. Random generated world and the same generic rules for everyone :decline:.



It is real shame because they have the opportunity to do something amazing,like a fucking whole new fantasy world with different nation,races,mechanics and so no.:negative: Fuck some times i get really depressed that i am not in that shitty business,while it is filled with empty husks of creatively bankrupted degenerate faggots without any vision.
 

Agame

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Well you could argue Paradox games have always been kind of "flavorless" when it comes to representing individual nations, anyway the biggest issue is the push for multiplayer, and the dreaded "balance" as you say. Which sucks all the flavor and craziness out of the game.

The only feature I really care to see in a Paradox game is mechanics for decline of big empire. It should be hard to manage big empire (its fucking historical) and no I dont mean all the stupid stuff they do just to slow down expansion. I mean actual game systems that you have to interact with after a big empire has been around awhile. If they were ever going to do this it should be here in I:R, but looks like they dropped the ball again.

And yeah Stellaris is a YUGE waste of potential, but the plebs seem to love it so I guess Paradox made a good call to chase the money, whom am I to blame them? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

fantadomat

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Yeah,i do agree that it is needed a empire killer mechanic. Thou it will be hard to make,most big empires crumble after the death of a leader and not because anything else. It is pretty hard to do in a game.

Nah,i was looking for "stellaris is dead" kind of shit on google and noticed that most people agree that their games are generic shit at this point and stellaris is garbage,but they bunch of cuckz and will buy the game anyway. It is lack of competition really,it is like those fucking german simulators where there is DLCs for thousands of euro. A lot of sad middle aged men with broken dreams out there.
 

Lone Wolf

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One thing that's absolutely needed is a mechanic to increase army costs with civilization level. It was one thing for Rome to expand throughout Italy with an army made up of peasant smallholders, who were needed back on the farm by harvest time. It was another to maintain ~700,000 men in the field, permanently; equip them, provision them, pay them and, ultimately, provide for their pensions. That expense gutted Rome (in conjunction with some other things) and it should be reflected on the game's balance sheet. In one of these streams, I'm seeing the Romans field ~350,000 men on campaign in Gaul around 70BC, like it's nothing, while building a massive surplus (5,000+ gold in the bank). They controlled modern day Algeria, half of Gaul and the Italian boot, at the time (in the game). No fucking chance, mate.

As in, it's not the army numbers themselves that bother me (yes, the army was hundreds of thousands strong by early AD), but what those numbers entail, financially.

I'd introduce the following to make the game a bit more realistic:

1) Theatre level supply limits - the Romans could not maintain ~60 legions in one campaign theatre at any point during their history. Not even with all of the Med supplying them. I shouldn't be watching a battle between 200,000 Romans and 300,000 Pritanians in a single province, unless mass starvation and rampant disease followed. These numbers were not achievable on any single battlefield until, essentially, the early industrial period. Even when history records such numbers (for example, the Persian armies arrayed against the Greeks/Alexander), anything over 100,000 men can basically be disregarded as propaganda. For example, when the Romans fought the Belgae and recorded 290,000 Belgae in the army brought to bear against Caesar's forces, that number basically included ALL Belgae persons (women, children, elderly, infirm) and there were unlikely more than ~60,000 fighting men the Romans had to deal with.

2) Supply distance costs - The further an army has to fight from its supply depots, the more it should cost. Provisioning men in the field is no simple thing. Armies should cost more to maintain as larger numbers of wagons/horses/carts are required to keep them fed. Some of this should be offset by foraging, but this offset should be limited by regional fertility AND local unrest/economic devastation.

2b) Time-based attrition - The longer an army is out on campaign, the more attrition needs to play a role. Armies on campaign for YEARS need to be periodically hit with disease/desertion based attrition, with the only remedy being a sustained opportunity for rest and recuperation. Unit replenishment outside of home territories should be heavily restricted and extremely costly.

3) Solve the army chase - The good old Clausewitz engine battlefield victory followed by months/years of chasing a constantly replenishing enemy army around before its final destruction could be solved simply. If the army is decisively beaten in the field (say, >40% losses and total morale breakdown), it should have a high chance of losing its baggage train and suffering HUGE attrition within the next few months (before, essentially, melting away, if not in a friendly province for sustained R&R).

5) Army costs increase with civilization level - It should cost a lot more for Romans/Macedonians/Carthaginians to field 30,000 men than for the Nervii to do the same, for the reasons outlined further above. However, without any mitigating factors (terrain/circumstances/luck/leadership), a civilised army should put its less civilised counterparts to the sword fairly routinely. They just had too many institutional advantages (training, discipline, equipment, small unit leadership etc) to allow warrior societies to fight them on an even playing field. This would also create a sense of progression for the tribal cultures, wherein their reform toward civilisation would entail a change in fighting styles (and, consequently, costs).

None of this stuff requires a tactical engine, and all the mechanics could be implemented fairly straightforwardly, though maybe not at the modder level. One can hope.
 

Drakron

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Yeah,i do agree that it is needed a empire killer mechanic. Thou it will be hard to make,most big empires crumble after the death of a leader and not because anything else. It is pretty hard to do in a game.

That is because of the system of government, Rome was both fairy stable and unstable as it transitioned fairly stable from Augustus to Tiberius to Caligula that was fucking insane so he got murdered then Claudius and then Nero who committed suicide to avoid execution, followed by the Year of Four Emperors ... I mean if you want to argue the Roman Empire should had collapsed due to Imperial instability it would had collapsed in 37 AD, not 230 AD if we ignore the Dominate until Theodosius I that was time were the Empire was united.

Rome was stable simply because the administration was stable, its collapse is more of the accumulation of issues over time with many external and not because weak leaders because damn, if you start looking at the list of Emperors you notice many of then did not exactly lived long or died of natural causes.
 

Tigranes

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One thing that's absolutely needed is a mechanic to increase army costs with civilization level. It was one thing for Rome to expand throughout Italy with an army made up of peasant smallholders, who were needed back on the farm by harvest time. It was another to maintain ~700,000 men in the field, permanently; equip them, provision them, pay them and, ultimately, provide for their pensions. That expense gutted Rome (in conjunction with some other things) and it should be reflected on the game's balance sheet. In one of these streams, I'm seeing the Romans field ~350,000 men on campaign in Gaul around 70BC, like it's nothing, while building a massive surplus (5,000+ gold in the bank). They controlled modern day Algeria, half of Gaul and the Italian boot, at the time (in the game). No fucking chance, mate.

As in, it's not the army numbers themselves that bother me (yes, the army was hundreds of thousands strong by early AD), but what those numbers entail, financially.

I'd introduce the following to make the game a bit more realistic:

1) Theatre level supply limits - the Romans could not maintain ~60 legions in one campaign theatre at any point during their history. Not even with all of the Med supplying them. I shouldn't be watching a battle between 200,000 Romans and 300,000 Pritanians in a single province, unless mass starvation and rampant disease followed. These numbers were not achievable on any single battlefield until, essentially, the early industrial period. Even when history records such numbers (for example, the Persian armies arrayed against the Greeks/Alexander), anything over 100,000 men can basically be disregarded as propaganda. For example, when the Romans fought the Belgae and recorded 290,000 Belgae in the army brought to bear against Caesar's forces, that number basically included ALL Belgae persons (women, children, elderly, infirm) and there were unlikely more than ~60,000 fighting men the Romans had to deal with.

2) Supply distance costs - The further an army has to fight from its supply depots, the more it should cost. Provisioning men in the field is no simple thing. Armies should cost more to maintain as larger numbers of wagons/horses/carts are required to keep them fed. Some of this should be offset by foraging, but this offset should be limited by regional fertility AND local unrest/economic devastation.

2b) Time-based attrition - The longer an army is out on campaign, the more attrition needs to play a role. Armies on campaign for YEARS need to be periodically hit with disease/desertion based attrition, with the only remedy being a sustained opportunity for rest and recuperation. Unit replenishment outside of home territories should be heavily restricted and extremely costly.

3) Solve the army chase - The good old Clausewitz engine battlefield victory followed by months/years of chasing a constantly replenishing enemy army around before its final destruction could be solved simply. If the army is decisively beaten in the field (say, >40% losses and total morale breakdown), it should have a high chance of losing its baggage train and suffering HUGE attrition within the next few months (before, essentially, melting away, if not in a friendly province for sustained R&R).

5) Army costs increase with civilization level - It should cost a lot more for Romans/Macedonians/Carthaginians to field 30,000 men than for the Nervii to do the same, for the reasons outlined further above. However, without any mitigating factors (terrain/circumstances/luck/leadership), a civilised army should put its less civilised counterparts to the sword fairly routinely. They just had too many institutional advantages (training, discipline, equipment, small unit leadership etc) to allow warrior societies to fight them on an even playing field. This would also create a sense of progression for the tribal cultures, wherein their reform toward civilisation would entail a change in fighting styles (and, consequently, costs).

None of this stuff requires a tactical engine, and all the mechanics could be implemented fairly straightforwardly, though maybe not at the modder level. One can hope.

Couldn't agree more. I think the key is to stop treating army numbers as basically HP, where players are encouraged to play as if having 500 men means having 500 hp left, and losing 2000 men in a battle means you've got 5000 more to play with. No, the moment you lose 2000 you have to think about attrition, desertion, etc., to the point that maybe losing 20% of your army actually destroyed the entire thing as a fully fit fighting force. OK, we can't have total war or even ROTK style complexity, and OK, we don't want to overhaul the engine too much, but even within those self-imposed limits, there's better ways to represent these armies in terms of walking spreadsheets.

In the case of EU:Rome, I hope / I had hoped for them to try and innovate a bit on internal politics and dissent side, simulating Senate factions and general disloyalty better to provide some of those 'empire setback' mechanisms. But as always, I guess, it's going to be map-painting with LARP.
 

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