Development Info InXile consults academics to create Wasteland authenticity

[Oriebam]

HIVER LIVES!

brb guyz, need to check something

:10 seconds later:

This member limits who may view their full profile.

click his post number, that should do it

 

[tuluse]

Complaining about the lack of W2 news: good.
Complaining about the involvement of some scientists: bad.

This is the most reasonable post in the entire thread.

 

[MRY]

Maybe this is what VD said above, but it seems to me that the difference between saying, "If magic exists in the gameplay, it be employed plausibly within the game world" and saying "We're hiring scientists to give our game scientific plausibility" is the difference between saying, "A game needs to be internally consistent" and "A game needs to be consistent with the real world."

I would have no objection to inXile hiring experts on the original Wasteland (and in other post-apocalyptic pulps) to serve as consultants about science in Wasteland 2. In fact, I often wonder why, for example, George Lucas didn't hire Star Wars nerds to fact-check his prequels. I wouldn't give those nerds authority, but I would definitely consult them. But have scientists come in and try to come up with a scientific explanation for the force ("I dunno, George, maybe it comes from, like mitochondria?") would be a bad idea.

I still haven't heard anyone offer a good explanation of what good the scientists can do, other than, I guess, sparing the writers the time of going on Wikipedia to give their made-up technology a veneer of reality.

--EDIT--

Again, just to be clear, I don't think this is a big deal because I think this is really just marketing. Why debate it then? Because one of the ways to hone your own theories about things is to test them in debate. I assume that's part of why VD is willing to bicker so much with you guys; he's just sharpening his understanding of his own views about game design on the whetstone of Codexian stubbornness.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you build a world based around hard science, your gameplay can't throw hard science out the window. Gameplay and setting have to reinforce and justify each other, at least in a narrative game.

Concessions can be made for gameplay. It doesn't mean that if the game is hard sci-fi absolutely everything must adhere to it. Similarly, it doesn't mean that if W2 is WACKY ™ there is no place for real science.
By VD's logic, if a game has, I don't know, faster than light travel then who gives a shit if it has a real star data? It's already WACKY!

other than, I guess, sparing the writers the time of going on Wikipedia to give their made-up technology a veneer of reality.

Ah, yes, who needs science these days when you have Wikipedia? Obviously a perfect replacement.

 

[DraQ]

No, they lack time, ability to look at stuff from tens viewpoints at once, quite a few of which are generally honed by working in the field, they lack mental capacity to learn a crapload of unrelated stuff at a whim and keep it for indefinite amount of time, and they lack formal education to adapt what they learn to fiction they create.

First - have you ever met a PhD? They're not super-humans with the ability to "learn a crapload of unrelated stuff at a whim and keep it for indefinite amount of time." They've studied something a lot. Something very specific. This is important, but it does make them an expert on everything - in fact, if your hobby is reading about another area of science, chances are you'll know more about the subject than they would.

Way to miss a point. They are not supposed to learn something unrelated or be universal experts. They are supposed to do what they are already good at doing to relieve the game designers from trying to do it ineptly.

Second, the writers job will be to adapt what they learn to fiction. If they can't do that, than it makes no difference if they learn it from the PhD's or an internet search. Hiring a consultant won't solve this problem.

Internet search is not interactive and can't react to context. Consultant can be told what you're trying to do and adapt his knowledge and abilities to the situation.

It's as if you'd say that doctors are obsolete because everyone could just google the symptoms, then treatments and treat themselves accordingly. What a fun way to revolutionize medicine.

Ever read hard science fiction? Especially some that came out in the last decade? Those guys have a good grasp of what's possible, and they didn't need to hire a consulting company.

Quite the contrary. A lot of guys doing hard SF have either scientific background themselves or are in touch with some expert.

Unlike writing, making games is a collective effort, can you guarantee that all your designers, programmers, writers and asset creators have the knowledge necessary to not durp it up horribly? Can you spend time either overseeing every single one of them all the time instead of doing your work OR testing everything they make? Can you spend time and resources on having them scrap and remake shit all the time?

Also, there is one tiny detail - there are things people think they know, ideas people think are familiar to them and so on. They more often than not don't, they more often than not aren't. You won't be looking up shit you think you know. A person who really knows it and can slap you upside the head in your critical moment of dumbfuckery is invaluable.

Such as? Give me an example of an idea that you'd need to hire scientists to check on. "For example, if Fargo wants to include ______ in the game, but wants to know what they'd need for ____________."

I don't know what Fargo has in mind, but it won't take me long to produce list of some glaring examples of dumbfuckery that could be completely avoided by having person with right kind of scientific knowledge in the right place at the right time:

I War 2: it's a newtonian spasim and works more or less like a newtonian spasim should, however:
- the AI is hopelessly broken when you expose it to actual newtonian flight (can't pursue fast flying objects, even inert ones, it's hilarious), if the game had a tester of consultant to the tester with some physical knowledge it would never have been flagged as working.
- early in game some derpy mission designer decided it would be great idea to have you stopped by the police in mid-system. If there was a consultant around, they could have told the guy that it's derpy and pointless, powering engines down would be enough.
- nieghbouring systems in the same clusters have derpy, menaningless colourful skyboxes drastically different from each orther, if the game had astronomy consultant (as was the case in Homeworld) much better looking and cohesive backgrounds would be made.
- stealth system is an awkward, unintuitive clusterfuck. If there was a science consultant on board, it wouldn't have been.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution: It's evident they had consultants (and good ones too) for their augs. It's evident they had no consultants for genetics (Evolushun! DNA! Next step in human evolushun! Mutagens! I'm sorry I took your DNA!) and for predicted impact of transhumanism on society. Victim? The entire fucking plot.
Speaking of consultants, they also could have talked a bit with some actual ex-SWAT dude to save me rolling my eyes at people scolding me for blowing away some shitstain holding a .357 to woman's head. Yeah, I know, not scientist, but still.

Fallout 1: Maybe if there was a science consultant on the team they would be able to come up with some flaw in Master's plan that would be a bit less fucking obvious than "supermutants r sterile lololol" which made master look like a fucking moron and the science specialized high int protagonist like, at best, an inquisitive high school kid.

Mass Effect: The entire series.

System Shock 2: Plot was broken, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Nanites description was terribad, though.

Nearly all space games:


Pretty much any game where you have anything with some sort of RL counterpart can benefit from a consultant. Pretty much any time you have to spice some detail up you ccan do better with a consultant. Your fantasy has retarded 100kg swords? Consultant. Your fantasy has modern multiracial societies without good reason? Consultant. You can block .50BMG with a stack of cardboard boxes? Consultant. You have green glowing radioactive goo? Consultant.

Seriously, reality is like a huge mine of raw consistency waiting to be extracted, refined, molded into parts you need and put into your fiction. All you need is take a consultant and give him a pick.

So, consider this: we are given the toolbox of an infinite number of genes found in nature, a plasmid to carry any number of these genes, and Adam to differentiate into any cell or tissue imaginable. You create a thought out process that, despite being far from any reality, makes sense. Imagine how a plasmid like "electro bolt" could have actually worked by differentiating Adam into electrocytes (muscle-like cells found in electric eels) using genes from electric fish engineered into plasmids. On their own these cells create about 0.15 volts but in unison and acting at a high frequency electrocute and stun unsuspecting Splicers. Sounds silly? Researchers are already keen on sequencing the genome of the electric eel to better understand how the animal already is capable of this.

Some plasmids would have easily unraveled in interesting ways to function biologically such as symbiotic relationships that allowed harboring and weaponizing bee swarms. However, other 'plasmids' were the result of giant leaps in logical steps to empower players with immolating fireballs, and freezing ice jets. I don't like splitting hairs on a would-be science fiction, but it should be noted that there is no shortage on the biological phenomena that could have offered players the same pleasures of setting people on fire or strategic escapes (teleportation) from danger.

Similarly, new game mechanics could have been introduced by known genes and functions from 50-year old science text books. Why not borrow the glow of firefly luciferase to introduce flashlight mechanics commonly found in the survival-horror genre? Imagine hearing Subject Delta/ Jack breathing in deeply to circulate the required oxygen to catalyze the activity of luciferase. After a few deep breaths, the character's fingertips start to glow green and slowly light up the poorly lit corners of Rapture.

Got that? Getting powers through Adam - plausible. Shooting lighting bolts and swarms of bees? Plausible. Shooting fire? Implausible (because biological creatures don't emit anything flammable like methane). Instead the player should be able to glow in the dark. Only after he takes a couple deep breathes, though - you know, realism.

So, in other words, garbage in, garbage out?
How very surprising.


If anything this shows the need of having the consultant before you embark on the path of dumbfuckening and decide, for example, that you want to have a magic system powered by genes.

 

[hiver]

No, they lack time, ability to look at stuff from tens viewpoints at once, quite a few of which are generally honed by working in the field, they lack mental capacity to learn a crapload of unrelated stuff at a whim and keep it for indefinite amount of time, and they lack formal education to adapt what they learn to fiction they create.

First - have you ever met a PhD? They're not super-humans with the ability to "learn a crapload of unrelated stuff at a whim and keep it for indefinite amount of time." They've studied something a lot. Something very specific. This is important, but it does make them an expert on everything - in fact, if your hobby is reading about another area of science, chances are you'll know more about the subject than they would.

Way to miss a point. They are not supposed to learn something unrelated or be universal experts. They are supposed to do what they are already good at doing to relieve the game designers from trying to do it ineptly.

Second, the writers job will be to adapt what they learn to fiction. If they can't do that, than it makes no difference if they learn it from the PhD's or an internet search. Hiring a consultant won't solve this problem.

Internet search is not interactive and can't react to context. Consultant can be told what you're trying to do and adapt his knowledge and abilities to the situation.

It's as if you'd say that doctors are obsolete because everyone could just google the symptoms, then treatments and treat themselves accordingly. What a fun way to revolutionize medicine.

Unlike writing, making games is a collective effort, can you guarantee that all your designers, programmers, writers and asset creators have the knowledge necessary to not durp it up horribly? Can you spend time either overseeing every single one of them all the time instead of doing your work OR testing everything they make? Can you spend time and resources on having them scrap and remake shit all the time?

Also, there is one tiny detail - there are things people think they know, ideas people think are familiar to them and so on. They more often than not don't, they more often than not aren't. You won't be looking up shit you think you know. A person who really knows it and can slap you upside the head in your critical moment of dumbfuckery is invaluable.




I War 2: it's a newtonian spasim and works more or less like a newtonian spasim should, however:
- the AI is hopelessly broken when you expose it to actual newtonian flight (can't pursue fast flying objects, even inert ones, it's hilarious), if the game had a tester of consultant to the tester with some physical knowledge it would never have been flagged as working.
- early in game some derpy mission designer decided it would be great idea to have you stopped by the police in mid-system. If there was a consultant around, they could have told the guy that it's derpy and pointless, powering engines down would be enough.
- nieghbouring systems in the same clusters have derpy, menaningless colourful skyboxes drastically different from each orther, if the game had astronomy consultant (as was the case in Homeworld) much better looking and cohesive backgrounds would be made.
- stealth system is an awkward, unintuitive clusterfuck. If there was a science consultant on board, it wouldn't have been.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution: It's evident they had consultants (and good ones too) for their augs. It's evident they had no consultants for genetics (Evolushun! DNA! Next step in human evolushun! Mutagens! I'm sorry I took your DNA!) and for predicted impact of transhumanism on society. Victim? The entire fucking plot.
Speaking of consultants, they also could have talked a bit with some actual ex-SWAT dude to save me rolling my eyes at people scolding me for blowing away some shitstain holding a .357 to woman's head. Yeah, I know, not scientist, but still.

Fallout 1: Maybe if there was a science consultant on the team they would be able to come up with some flaw in Master's plan that would be a bit less fucking obvious than "supermutants r sterile lololol" which made master look like a fucking moron and the science specialized high int protagonist like, at best, an inquisitive high school kid.

Mass Effect: The entire series.

System Shock 2: Plot was broken, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Nanites description was terribad, though.

Nearly all space games:


Pretty much any game where you have anything with some sort of RL counterpart can benefit from a consultant. Pretty much any time you have to spice some detail up you ccan do better with a consultant. Your fantasy has retarded 100kg swords? Consultant. Your fantasy has modern multiracial societies without good reason? Consultant. You can block .50BMG with a stack of cardboard boxes? Consultant. You have green glowing radioactive goo? Consultant.

Seriously, reality is like a huge mine of raw consistency waiting to be extracted, refined, molded into parts you need and put into your fiction. All you need is take a consultant and give him a pick.




So, in other words, garbage in, garbage out?
How very surprising.


If anything this shows the need of having the consultant before you embark on the path of dumbfuckening and decide, for example, that you want to have a magic system powered by genes.

Finally, someone sane.

Like I just said, it wasn't an example of a setting damaged by applying science consultants to it, it was an example of a game changed to appease different people than the fans of the original.

Really? Well... if you only written that... but maybe youre writing for telepaths who can see what you actually mean.

Furthermore, dumbass - i never said wasteland specific setting should be changed or that it will be changed. Quite the bloody contrary.

Good then we are both in agreement that we want the game to have the pulpy, crazy and sometimes even stupid kind of science fiction that made the original?
.[/quote]
Why does that science need to be stupid?
Did original really had stupid science? - was it actually stupid, like directly offensively stupid - and that was its point - or it had crazy, pulpy science! - ?
And did Thwacke say they will "regulate and smoothen" that "mistake" of the original - or did they actually say they they build on and do their game related work - based on each setting?

If so, do you disagree with my points about how bringing in a science team might go against the mood and feel of this kind of fiction?

Oh, so there is a point about science damaging setting, mood and fiction too. - good to know, and it "might go" eh? Well, what a catastrophe that is!
It might go against something, wow!

Lets all run in circles and scream!



(and you have to ask me am i against it? )

I leave out the rest of your post because I don't think you really made any points there.

If you feel I haven't answered what you said, feel free to repeat.

sure buddy! Ill get right on it!

Do you not see the difference between "shit that makes sense" and science-approved?

Yes. Do you?

If there are orcs in the game, I don't need to read an explanation of where the orcs come from. I want the orcs to do more than stand in the middle of en empty cave waiting for attack whoever crosses the invisible line. I want them to be a part of the motherfucking world, have a place in it, have relationship with other races that goes beyond some NPC telling me that orcs ate his grandma as a reason for me to kill them.
If there is magic, I want mages to do more than kill monsters with magic missiles and fireballs. I want it to be integrated into the setting, which isn't rocket science.

No need to tell me, ive contributed and approved of both of those threads.


btw i would recommend to everyone to read both of those. They are really good.

On top of basically just inventing what something they said actually means, like some crazed conspiracy theory looney, and it always actually means exactly opposite of what Fargo and Thwacke are saying.

Learn to read words, bro.

You mean words like those that Thwacke is taking over the design and control - that it all must mean setting will be changed - that it will all be "scientized" - that difference between "shit that makes sense" and "science-approved" (ewhatever the hell that means, btw) is how things usually work...- your view of what everyone actually thinks and intends to do - and your amazing precog report on eventual execution of it all.... and... anything else?

Youve run out of Ubik again, didnt ya?

Read the last fucking sentence one more time.

Seen any coins with a face of Brian Fargo on one side, lately? (the book talks about subjective views of reality, different for different protagonists, among other things, for those that dont get the reference)

the difference between "shit that makes sense" and science-approved

 

[almondblight]

Way to miss a point. They are not supposed to learn something unrelated or be universal experts. They are supposed to do what they are already good at doing to relieve the game designers from trying to do it ineptly.

Read their bios. Two of them are good at pharmacology and ones good at neurosurgery. So if you were worried about the pharmacology in Wasteland 2 being messed up, don't be - these guys are on the job.

It's as if you'd say that doctors are obsolete because everyone could just google the symptoms, then treatments and treat themselves accordingly. What a fun way to revolutionize medicine.

Umm...that's actually exactly what I do, and I can avoid going to the doctor usually half the time. The other half of the time it's because I need something I can't do myself, like antibiotics or surgery. But even then, I almost always know what's going on.

Quite the contrary. A lot of guys doing hard SF have either scientific background themselves or are in touch with some expert.

Being in touch with an expert is not hiring a consultancy company. If Fargo said his writers were hanging out on postdoc mailing lists shooting ideas around, that'd make sense. I don't know of any hard scifi writer that has a PhD, and their writings are based on the they've learned themselves, not what they've hired outsiders to figure out.

Unlike writing, making games is a collective effort, can you guarantee that all your designers, programmers, writers and asset creators have the knowledge necessary to not durp it up horribly? Can you spend time either overseeing every single one of them all the time instead of doing your work OR testing everything they make? Can you spend time and resources on having them scrap and remake shit all the time?

If you can't oversee your writers, and keep them from putting stupid things in the game, you shouldn't be managing the project. Saying "but Fargo can't possibly keep the Wasteland writers from writing stupid shit" isn't terribly reassuring.

Also, there is one tiny detail - there are things people think they know, ideas people think are familiar to them and so on. They more often than not don't, they more often than not aren't. You won't be looking up shit you think you know.[/quote]

Actually, I do that all the time.

I don't know what Fargo has in mind, but it won't take me long to produce list of some glaring examples of dumbfuckery that could be completely avoided by having person with right kind of scientific knowledge in the right place at the right time:

I War 2: it's a newtonian spasim and works more or less like a newtonian spasim should, however:
- the AI is hopelessly broken when you expose it to actual newtonian flight (can't pursue fast flying objects, even inert ones, it's hilarious), if the game had a tester of consultant to the tester with some physical knowledge it would never have been flagged as working.
- early in game some derpy mission designer decided it would be great idea to have you stopped by the police in mid-system. If there was a consultant around, they could have told the guy that it's derpy and pointless, powering engines down would be enough.
- nieghbouring systems in the same clusters have derpy, menaningless colourful skyboxes drastically different from each orther, if the game had astronomy consultant (as was the case in Homeworld) much better looking and cohesive backgrounds would be made.
- stealth system is an awkward, unintuitive clusterfuck. If there was a science consultant on board, it wouldn't have been.

The hell? You need a PhD to tell you that the AI is screwed up? That the stealth system doesn't work?

Deus Ex: Human Revolution: It's evident they had consultants (and good ones too) for their augs. It's evident they had no consultants for genetics (Evolushun! DNA! Next step in human evolushun! Mutagens! I'm sorry I took your DNA!) and for predicted impact of transhumanism on society. Victim? The entire fucking plot.
Speaking of consultants, they also could have talked a bit with some actual ex-SWAT dude to save me rolling my eyes at people scolding me for blowing away some shitstain holding a .357 to woman's head. Yeah, I know, not scientist, but still.

You're wrong. According to Thwacke!, this was the real problem with DE: HR: "However, you can see one problem with the Deus Ex interpretation of biology here; if glial scarring happens after neurological injury to stop regrowth, why do people regain motor control and sensation after nerve damage to limbs, fingers, et cetera? It's because in the peripheral nervous system, the glial make-up is a little different; different types of glial cells help out after an injury, allowing axons to re-grow and make functional connections. So for anything outside the brain and spinal cord: no astrocytes, no "glial tissue build-up", no Neuropozyne necessary, no problem. This means the peripheral augs (see image below) would be a-okay without Nu-Poz."

Damn, should have hired those guys.

Mass Effect: The entire series.

Thwacke!: "By making the ME universe a plausible one, Bioware succeeded in appealing to the curious gamer and paves the way for critical thought. It is only a matter of time before other developers follow suit, and science fiction becomes more than just fiction."

System Shock 2: Plot was broken, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Nanites description was terribad, though.

They should have hired me. I could have told them that Psi isn't real.

Nearly all space games:

Yeah. We need a PhD to tell people that light travels at the speed of light, not at 70 mph.

Pretty much any game where you have anything with some sort of RL counterpart can benefit from a consultant. Pretty much any time you have to spice some detail up you ccan do better with a consultant. Your fantasy has retarded 100kg swords? Consultant. Your fantasy has modern multiracial societies without good reason? Consultant. You can block .50BMG with a stack of cardboard boxes? Consultant. You have green glowing radioactive goo? Consultant.

"Hey, what's the coldest temperature possible?" "Consultant!" "Hey, we need to find how long a year on Mars lasts." "Consultant!" Hmm, OK. What the hell are the people that are working there doing?

Seriously, reality is like a huge mine of raw consistency waiting to be extracted, refined, molded into parts you need and put into your fiction. All you need is take a consultant and give him a pick.

Yeah man. They have secret demining powers.

If anything this shows the need of having the consultant before you embark on the path of dumbfuckening and decide, for example, that you want to have a magic system powered by genes.

How does this show this? Thwacke!'s saying that it's plausible to have a magic system built around that. But you should be shooting lightning and wasps, not fire. Good thing we have those consultants.

 

[DraQ]

One more thing - how does bringing in science team harms the mood or whatever of any setting?

Take Anachronox - one of the pulpiest and craziest games existing.
It has a cutscene specifically focused around the point of there being no friction in space.
It's main plot is built around

Spoiler

Relationship between density, expansion rate and ultimate fate of the universe

.

Besides, it's not like scientists are humourless androids speaking in monotone and incapable of comprehending such concepts as "fun" or "premise".
Quite a few have played D&D, read good and bad fantasy and Sci-Fi and generally have done all kinds of stuff.
They can understand what you want to do with your game.
Some may even play it, younger generation ones may have played and enjoyed its spiritual predecessor too.
But they can also notice problems and potential improvements you don't, because they fall in their field of expertise.

 

[hiver]

They should have hired me. I could have told them that Psi isn't real.

gee... what a comprehension failure...
and crappy retorts as a result. how unsurprising.


Anyway VD, hows coding AoD doing? Running the game on what? Computers? Programs?
hmm... look at me! im talking to you through "shit that doesnt make sense"! teh internets who were created by science.
which is, according to you, distinctive from shit that makes sense.



here is something in a faster entertaining format well known to everyone that im sure youve seen before already, just a few quick links on the subject of science versus shit that makes sense.
http://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_unveils_synthetic_life.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/gregory_stock_to_upgrade_is_human.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/janine_benyus_biomimicry_in_action.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriquez_wants_to_grow_energy.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/mitchell_joachim_don_t_build_your_home_grow_it.html



btw the answer is: science is shit that makes sense.

 

[DraQ]

Being in touch with an expert is not hiring a consultancy company.

Writing a book is not overseeing a massive software project.

The hell? You need a PhD to tell you that the AI is screwed up?

If you have to do something slightly unusual that will be natural for someone with any sort of physics education?

That the stealth system doesn't work?

It does sort of work. It's just retarded and doesn't mesh well with everything else.

You're wrong. According to Thwacke!, this was the real problem with DE: HR: "However, you can see one problem with the Deus Ex interpretation of biology here; if glial scarring happens after neurological injury to stop regrowth, why do people regain motor control and sensation after nerve damage to limbs, fingers, et cetera? It's because in the peripheral nervous system, the glial make-up is a little different; different types of glial cells help out after an injury, allowing axons to re-grow and make functional connections. So for anything outside the brain and spinal cord: no astrocytes, no "glial tissue build-up", no Neuropozyne necessary, no problem. This means the peripheral augs (see image below) would be a-okay without Nu-Poz."

Damn, should have hired those guys.

Actually, yes, having to work without Nu-Poz would likely end up with more convincing treatment of augmentation problems than "Augs are like drugs!!!1".

Read below:

Including the concept of Neuropozyne in the game did help us to exacerbate the social divides in the game... but it was also important for several other story reasons. First, it gave us a way to clearly illustrate Adam's uniqueness. Second, it made for a cool side quest. And third, it allowed us to make some nice tie-ins to DX1 and a certain drug company that's run by Illuminati members…

1. Would be better without without some misaimed asspuled piece of fiction eclipsing the actual societal problems. Could also tap into fears more familiar to at least some of the players - backdoors, corporate monopoly, closed market, maintenance. The problems you can have with your computer except then it would be a computer built into your body and controlling some of its functions.
2. You don't need your every protagonist to be that unique and awesome and if you did, it could be some trait of AJ's immune system that would be irrelevant for conventional augmentation, but would pave the way for nano-augs like JC and Paul.
3. The above would also provide a tie in on much more core level than some drug and throw-in company name.

Still, in DX:HR they have those neural hubs that are centrally implanted and used as central controllers for augs.

Anyway, read even further below:

And the writers cared enough about scientific accuracy to consult with Will Rossellini, founder of MicroTransponder inc. and a neuroscience PhD student, who has said about his role: "When I volunteered to be a science consultant in 2008, I said, 'Let's imagine where today's research can go in 20 years'... A lot of that science is intertwined with the plot and explained within the game." Demarle has confirmed the importance of Rossellini's scientific input: "Will came along... and ended up opening our eyes to things that we didn't even dream possible." At the same time, "This is a game, so there are certain things that we want[ed] in it that are just wild... We did take some liberties with some things, knowing that we could turn to [Rossellini] and have him... help us make it sound more credible"

Without having the consultant they would probably have ended like Techland's Chrome, with neat 3D graphics showing pistons moving inside your arms and shit (when reviewing your augs). And it would be lulzy. And shit.

They should have hired me. I could have told them that Psi isn't real.

Fortunately scientists tend to be smart enough to recognise part of the premise. Unlike you.

 

[almondblight]

Writing a book is not overseeing a massive software project.

So tell me, what prevents the writers from doing research the same way authors do?

If you have to do something slightly unusual that will be natural for someone with any sort of physics education?

Yeah man, the physicist isn't going to be writing the AI. If you realize the AI is messed up, I seriously doubt they'd need to call in a PhD to handle it.

It does sort of work. It's just retarded and doesn't mesh well with everything else.

Well. Call up the PhD's.

Without having the consultant they would probably have ended like Techland's Chrome, with neat 3D graphics showing pistons moving inside your arms and shit (when reviewing your augs). And it would be lulzy. And shit.

Good point. Without a neuroscience consultant, you would have had all that stupid "Augs are like drugs!!!1" stuff. Wait a second...

Fortunately scientists tend to be smart enough to recognise part of the premise.

I see...

All that being said, while continual improvement toward better science in games is both necessary and appreciated, a perfectly accurate game is limited in its freedom to create a novel and exciting fictional world. A careful balance must be struck between realism and fantasy, with scientific accuracy as an ideal, but not always as an attainable goal, especially when story is such a high priority. In a post by lead narrative designer Mary DeMarle intended to justify the inclusion of Neuropozyne in HR, she said, "Including the concept of Neuropozyne in the game did help us to exacerbate the social divides in the game... but it was also important for several other story reasons. First, it gave us a way to clearly illustrate Adam's uniqueness. Second, it made for a cool side quest. And third, it allowed us to make some nice tie-ins to DX1 and a certain drug company that's run by Illuminati members…"

You were saying?

 

[Alex]

Why does that science need to be stupid?
Did original really had stupid science? - was it actually stupid, like directly offensively stupid - and that was its point - or it had crazy, pulpy science! - ?
And did Thwacke say they will "regulate and smoothen" that "mistake" of the original - or did they actually say they they build on and do their game related work - based on each setting?

VD made a good job of bringing up examples that might be considered "stupid". Perhaps a better word would be whimsical. The fiction there doesn't care if it sounds stupid or not. It has some internal logic, of course, but it doesn't care much about building a believable setting. Instead, it just cares about going to this or that point in the story. It is all about what the authors wanted to talk about, caring almost nothing to make sure each area and situation can be strung together in a rational way. Instead, it does things in abrupt ways that, however, have a charm of their own.

Now, give this premise, given I care about these things in the game, it should be easy to see why I dislike the inclusion of a consulting team to the game. This kind of pulp is best when it has minimal editorial intrusion. Too much worrying about making the work something more legitimate, like making sure there are no obvious scientific flaws can help drive the designer away from his own good points,can shift the focus of the work somewhat to a direction that was never the point of the game or story or whatever it is we are talking about.

Feel free to disagree with this if you want, but please, try to explain where you think my thought line is wrong. Do note that, given that premise, it doesn't matter

If so, do you disagree with my points about how bringing in a science team might go against the mood and feel of this kind of fiction?

Oh, so there is a point about science damaging setting, mood and fiction too. - good to know, and it "might go" eh? Well, what a catastrophe that is!
It might go against something, wow!

Lets all run in circles and scream!

Nah, I don't mind discussing stuff with you that much, Hiver.

(and you have to ask me am i against it? )

Yeah. For someone who resents me for thinking you are telepathic, I must say you don't do much of a good job explaining your own points yourself.

One more thing - how does bringing in science team harms the mood or whatever of any setting?

Like I tried to explain there, these are the kinds of stories I think one must have a really light hand with the editorial control, lest you spoil what makes them awesome. Not all stories are like that. Some benefit from having various revisions and what not, like say, Lords of the Rings.

Take Anachronox - one of the pulpiest and craziest games existing.
It has a cutscene specifically focused around the point of there being no friction in space.
It's main plot is built around

Spoiler

Relationship between density, expansion rate and ultimate fate of the universe

.

Besides, it's not like scientists are humourless androids speaking in monotone and incapable of comprehending such concepts as "fun" or "premise".
Quite a few have played D&D, read good and bad fantasy and Sci-Fi and generally have done all kinds of stuff.
They can understand what you want to do with your game.
Some may even play it, younger generation ones may have played and enjoyed its spiritual predecessor too.
But they can also notice problems and potential improvements you don't, because they fall in their field of expertise.

Sorry, DraQ, I haven't played much of Anachronox. Still, the game seemed to be much too sophisticated from what I heard to really be pulp. Maybe we are using different definitions of that word?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Umm...that's actually exactly what I do, and I can avoid going to the doctor usually half the time. The other half of the time it's because I need something I can't do myself, like antibiotics or surgery. But even then, I almost always know what's going on.

Great, man, all humanity's problems are solved through the internet. No more research needed, no more work needed. We can all sit back and live through the power of the almighty internet. Fuck those brainiac losers with their brains and shit. Who needs them.

Seriously, this argument gets more and more retarded.

I can't believe people are actually demonizing intellectualism and praising this voodoo "whatever works, dude" mindset. Fucking dark ages, I thought they were over.

 

[almondblight]

Great, man, all humanity's problems are solved through the internet. No more research needed, no more work needed. We can all sit back and live through the power of the almighty internet. Fuck those brainiac losers with their brains and shit. Who needs them.

Seriously, this argument gets more and more retarded.

It's not that everything can be solved through the internet. It's that you have a brain; some people choose to use it. If something is wrong with you, you can spend twenty minutes reading up on it. And often you can take care of it yourself. Or do you run to the hospital for every single thing that goes wrong? Got a cold? Run to the hospital. Cut yourself? Run to the hospital. Trouble sleeping? Hospital.

If you want to read "look into your own problems sometimes" as "fuck those braniac losers," well, that is something special.

I can't believe people are actually demonizing intellectualism and praising this voodoo "whatever works, dude" mindset. Fucking dark ages, I thought they were over.

It's not "voodoo," it's called the internet. I know some people who call the IT department whenever they have a camputer problem. I usually google it first. But that must be because I HATE! intellectuals. Oh yeah, sometimes I snake my own drain instead of calling a plumber. So I guess I hate plumbers too now.

 

[hiver]

To put it simply, we have already been over all of that.

You simply cant keep up, you are too far behind, you constantly get sidetracked because of your own filter of prejudice and bad thinking that causes. You seem to just assume future development and cannot differentiate between reality and your own wild unsupported conjectures.
Your expectations are based on argumentum ignorantiims, bad oxy-moron examples, you just suppose a certain approach to the subject always works while the other will always bring bad consequences - and you fail to understand what is directly said to you several times in a row - and then you tell me you want me to explain stuff to you? After i wrote "sure buddy. ill get right on it!"?

I said to VD he just keeps making shit up and then complains about what he just invented - several posts ago. Ive told you you base your nonsense on "things might go wrong - lets panic" logic - yet you claim you dont in some sort of nonsensical answer - and then you go:

This kind of pulp is best when it has minimal editorial intrusion.

Which is just a wild statement completely unsupported by anything at all. In the whole multiverse.
I mean... minimal editorial intrusion can mean many different things you dont specify - and its a conjecture on what and how the work will be applied somewhere in the future - nor can it be said that every pulp setting always benefited from such moronity.(which your statement as it is does claim).

and

Too much worrying about making the work something more legitimate, like making sure there are no obvious scientific flaws - can help drive the designer away from his own good points, can shift the focus of the work somewhat to a direction that was never the point of the game or story or whatever it is we are talking about.

Where you again completely fail to understand the most basic statements given by thwacke and Fargo - which claim completely different things (for example "making sure there is no scientific flaws" is completely fabricated by you and VlaDislav) - and then you go on the same old track of "things might go wrong therefore they will go wrong".

and thats way, way after i scolded VD (and everyone else) for silly complaints about eventual future execution or implementation of the whole thing, which is argumentum ignorantium - again.
- which you cannot even recognize although you can and do repeatedly.
I said that several pages ago.


Its like talking to a robot running on some simple singular frequency , emitting the same old signal in a constant loop - in an alternative universe where science means bad and nonsensical things.


/

Just wanted you to know that, since you said you cant understand it yourself.

 

[DraQ]

One more thing - how does bringing in science team harms the mood or whatever of any setting?

Like I tried to explain there, these are the kinds of stories I think one must have a really light hand with the editorial control, lest you spoil what makes them awesome.

That doesn't affect IF you should put scientific correctness in, just where you can stick it.

Sorry, DraQ, I haven't played much of Anachronox. Still, the game seemed to be much too sophisticated from what I heard to really be pulp. Maybe we are using different definitions of that word?

Ok, so maybe pulpy isn't the word, but it is to the highest degree absurd. It's a game where your party is joined by an alcoholic balding superhero (spandex, cape and all) who punches shit with comic-like effects, and that's after it's been joined by a pathologically democratic, planet (shrunk to roughly your size). It's a game where your spaceship gets captured by a comicbook supervillain and all narration switches to fucking bubbles.It's a game where there are relics from the previous big bang and big crunch cycle that give people magic powers.

It's far more absurd and fucked up than anything you could find in Fallout series or Wizardry 6 through 8.

And yet, its WTF moments (most of the game) mesh perfectly well with both scientifically hard and dramatic ones.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you want to read "look into your own problems sometimes" as "fuck those braniac losers," well, that is something special.

That's how you make it sound, though, since inXile asking for scientist advice is such a horrible thing to do. Maybe they won't ask for advice that is equivalent to what do when you cut yourself, hmm? Who would have thought that scientists can be more useful than telling you to apply a band-aid?

 

[Vault Dweller]

hiver

To put simply, internal consistency, logic, and integration and scientific accuracy are two very different things. Let's go back to magic. If magic exists in the game and is available to many, it should be properly integrated into the setting. A mage shouldn't use his abilities exclusively to kill monsters. Whether or not it's scientifically possible to conjure fireballs out of thin air or discharge them from your fingers is irrelevant.

You don't need a scientist to integrate magic into the setting (any DnD geek worth his salt can do it), but you need one if you want to explain spellcasting scientifically, which isn't needed.

Same goes for everything else: mutants, harmful effects, medicine, etc.

 

[almondblight]

That's how you make it sound, though, since inXile asking for scientist advice is such a horrible thing to do.

Except no one's saying that it's a horrible thing to do, just that it's pointless. You guys really are starting to sound like that guy at work whose solution for the slightest computer problem is to call the IT department. Maybe that's the main difference here. Some of us don't see ourselves as being entirely helpless and incompetent outside of our particular areas of expertise. It doesn't mean that we hate the experts in other areas; it just means that we don't feel the need to go crying to them all the time. Yes, we search for medical information online, snake our own drains, reinstall our own operating system. And in the case of Wasteland 2, that means that I would probably spend some time reading up on things like Chernobyl and the effects of radiation. That's what a load of hard scifi authors do, and it works just fine for them.

Does that mean I would be able to write a scientific paper about it? No, thats what scientists are for. But I'm sure it would be more than enough for me to make a good game. If I got to the point where I needed a PhD to figure something out in the game, then I've reached a point where I've focused way too much on science. Hell, I've probably reached that point long before, because anyone can read about pointless (for the game) stuff like if birch or pine trees would fare better after a nuclear holocaust.

Can you find one review - hell, one comment even - that says that DE: HR including glial buildup in the peripheral nervous system instead of just the brain and the spinal cord bothered them?

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you want to read "look into your own problems sometimes" as "fuck those braniac losers," well, that is something special.

That's how you make it sound, though, since inXile asking for scientist advice is such a horrible thing to do.

It's not a horrible thing to do. It's an unnecessary thing to do (in a game like WL2) that doesn't bring anything interesting to the table.

 

[Vault Dweller]

By VD's logic, if a game has, I don't know, faster than light travel then who gives a shit if it has a real star data? It's already WACKY!

The question is, what does it bring to the table?

I assume you've played many space games. Some were good, some not so much. A fake star data didn't make good games worse and a real star data didn't make bad games better. It's irrelevant, unless a game's selling point happened to be scientific accuracy (like Outpost's).

 

[Infinitron]

If you want to read "look into your own problems sometimes" as "fuck those braniac losers," well, that is something special.

That's how you make it sound, though, since inXile asking for scientist advice is such a horrible thing to do.

It's not a horrible thing to do. It's an unnecessary thing to do (in a game like WL2) that doesn't bring anything interesting to the table.

How do you know it "won't bring anything interesting to the table"? You don't know anything about the game!

 

[Brayko]

If you want to read "look into your own problems sometimes" as "fuck those braniac losers," well, that is something special.

That's how you make it sound, though, since inXile asking for scientist advice is such a horrible thing to do.

It's not a horrible thing to do. It's an unnecessary thing to do (in a game like WL2) that doesn't bring anything interesting to the table.

How do you know it "won't bring anything interesting to the table"? You don't know anything about the game!

It has to be like Wasteland 1 or else it isn't bringing anything interesting to the table.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just like talking to Bethesda fans. You say anything critical about Fallout 3 (when it was in development) and everyone runs to their battle stations and start typing "you just want it to be like Fallout 1 this is not 1995 anymore go play Fallout 1 if you like it so much!!!"

 

[Brayko]

Fans will be fans regardless of what they're fans of. I think Bethesda games suck batshit so I wouldn't even try to associate to them because it's obvious no common ground will be found. So you don't have an answer to Infinitron's question, ok.