Game News inXile reveal Wasteland 3's party system

[mondblut]

Unless i am mistaken, RPG make you part of the team that do the ground work, doing tasks for other, involved in the combats, the questinng, and quite often, the personnal story of your character. Not going into a checklist of the things you do, but your perspective is the one of your character or your party when there is no singular protagonist. You see the things they see, hear what they hear, do what they do.

That's a tabletop RPG. (and even then, the importance of all that "being in character" crap is grossly overstated. it plays fine enough when you run a customized unit through a gauntlet without bothering with all the make-believe play-pretend bullshit).

A computer RPG is a single-player simulation of the entire package combined. You are a stand-in for the whole crew of people who would be running those "characters", and to an extent, even for DM. There is no "playing roles" wanking, your function is that of a band manager, and that's it.

When you are playing a racing simulation game, you are not "playing the role of a man behind steering wheel", you just pull joystick and have fun. When you are playing an RPG-playing simulation game, it is no different.

In strategy or management game, you have a more omniscient perspective of the general, the mayor, the dictator, or whatever figure of authority that can give orders to the units at play. No matter the depth of the units, they are pawns that follow your orders

You are not in the shoes of one of your pawns, but the one who has an overview of the whole battlefield, the whole gamewolrd, and handle all the managing aspect. You see things that none of your units can see. You can replace any of them with another one, and the overall goal of the game would say the same. You goal isn't even the same as your units. All they want is to survive and get paid well enough, while your goal is to get control of the whole area, even if it means clashing with the goal of your units.

Applies 100% to every proper CRPG since the Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord days. Suits me just fine.

 

[naossano]

When you are playing a race game, you might not be roleplaying the driver, but you are still playing from the perspective of the driver, see what he sees, live what he lives, and do what he does. And it isn't the perspective you choose, but the perspective the game was designed around. You might tell yourself that you want the perspective of the cheering crowd, or the manager of the car company, it just won't work. You will have to drive that thing and won't be able to see beyond what is around your car.

Same for the RPG and strategic perspective mentioned before. Even if you prefer an individual perspective, you won't be able to escape the omnicient perspective in a strategic game designed around it, as you will need the tools of the omniscient perspective to move forward. And you won't be able to gain an omniscient perspective when the game is designed around a singular perspective.

Also, perspective could mean role if you have an input on the actions but there is also perspective in movies, books, paintings, photographs. It is from which angle you see things. There is always one, even if it isn't always obvious, even when we would prefer another one, even when we aren't roleplaying. It does not depend on how you want to see the thing. It is already in it by design.

Actually there are only few RPGs, which have good tactical combat. Resource management is one of the weaker parts of RPGs compared to good strategy games. Wondering monsters are featured in almost any genre. About party management: Have you played Commandos series? I heard they are the best RPGs you're gonna get.

I would call it a tactical game without the ressource management, not unlike the Myth series. Those units are set in stone. You don't get to choose with one you take, you don't influence their stats, they don't get XP.

 

[Fenix]

It has long became a de-facto standart of playing JA2.

No.

So are Wizardry, goldbox series and the rest of proper RPGs before ultima faggotry overrun the genre.

Yep, and those RPG of the past more like dungeon crawler, you now RPG evolved in 90s - Fallout, P:T.

 

[acer palmatum]

The Germans got it right (though I'd call it a squad-based tactics game with RPG elements).

The strategy gameplay is with holding onto the places you've taken and managing time/money.

As a german I can say we messed this pretty much up the last two times, so it is higher strategy for us obviously.

 

[naossano]

So are Wizardry, goldbox series and the rest of proper RPGs before ultima faggotry overrun the genre.

Yep, and those RPG of the past more like dungeon crawler, you now RPG evolved in 90s - Fallout, P:T.

Depends if you take the first PC games or the table top games as reference.
I would say regardless if your cession is for combat fag, story fag or a bit of both (i hardly see real life long cession with just damage logs), your perspective is still the one of a character or a party, while other players play other characters or party. Unless you are the game master, you don't have an overview of the whole gameworld.

 

[mondblut]

Yep, and those RPG of the past more like dungeon crawler, you now RPG evolved in 90s - Fallout, P:T.

We have a word for it. Starts with "Dec-", ends with "-line".

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Yep, and those RPG of the past more like dungeon crawler, you now RPG evolved in 90s - Fallout, P:T.

We have a word for it. Starts with "Dec-", ends with "-line".

DecemberOnline?

 

[Fenix]

We have a word for it. Starts with "Dec-", ends with "-line".

OK, those RPG are Decline for you, good to know.
I doesn't blacklist anyone because it is silly, but you looks like right candidate for it, if I undersand you right.
Btw why it is Decline?

 

[l3loodAngel]

Actually there are only few RPGs, which have good tactical combat. Resource management is one of the weaker parts of RPGs compared to good strategy games. Wondering monsters are featured in almost any genre. About party management: Have you played Commandos series? I heard they are the best RPGs you're gonna get.

I would call it a tactical game without the ressource management, not unlike the Myth series. Those units are set in stone. You don't get to choose with one you take, you don't influence their stats, they don't get XP.

At least its both strategic and tactical as fuck, because at the end of the day no RPG elements are required. Just go into enemies kick ass and chew bubble gum. No talking, no talking out of situations, communicating with members or anything. It's the dungeon crawler evolved and if iirc the combat systems were better (at least the steath part)... No RPG ever can even compare to the fucking stealth play of commandos. I thought RPGs are gonna go that way at least partly, but boy was I wrong...

 

[naossano]

Come to think of it, we could say it is a stealth game.

 

[Azrael the cat]

It is low on questing, C n C, lore, and character interactions.
Not saying there is no RPG parts, but the focus is more into strategy, management of ressources, zone management, tactical combat.

Sure, it is more an RPG that many game that pretend to be RPGs, but imo, the main focus of the game is the strategic side.

About party creation, i guess i forgot about it, but i assume you don't create a party from the get go.

1. You just failed your 'Codex lore' skill-sheck. You're talking to Mondblut - he's just going to answer that the lack of those very things is why it's a crpg. The word 'storyfag' may come up.

2. On this occasion, I actually agree with him. There's several crpg sub-genres that have a low emphasis on those things, sometimes none. Ok, the latter applies only to the earliest entries in those sub-genres. But similar 'low' on questing/CnC/etc would be most blobbers (including the most monocled, Wizardry series - maybe other than Wiz8), dungeon crawlers and non-ADOM roguelikes.

 

[mondblut]

We have a word for it. Starts with "Dec-", ends with "-line".

OK, those RPG are Decline for you, good to know.
I doesn't blacklist anyone because it is silly, but you looks like right candidate for it, if I undersand you right.
Btw why it is Decline?

Because PST is a glorified Twine game.

Fallout is somewhat acceptable, but by far inferior to the likes of Dark Sun in every aspect that actually matters. Lame ad-hoc ruleset and no proper party scream "i want to be a bioware, alas the time ain't right yet".

 

[Fenix]

Twine game?

 

[l3loodAngel]

Fallout is somewhat acceptable, but by far inferior to the likes of Dark Sun in every aspect that actually matters. Lame ad-hoc ruleset and no proper party scream "i want to be a bioware, alas the time ain't right yet".

That's beyond reatarded... :russia:

 

[mondblut]

Twine game?

depressionquest.com

muh C&C111

 

[Excidium II]

This still going? Fucking newfags arguing about CRPGs with mondblut

 

[l3loodAngel]

Twine game?

depressionquest.com

muh C&C111

Retarded trivial bullshit. Both the game and your responses... Let me congratulate you with a trivial secondary ovation.

 

[Lexx]

google jagged alliance 2 box

"A strategy game with RPG elements".

The Germans got it right (though I'd call it a squad-based tactics game with RPG elements and a strategic overlay).

Yeah, focus is on *elements*. People here make it seem that ja2 = rpg. FarCry 3 has rpg elements, are people calling it an rpg now as well?

 

[Excidium II]

google jagged alliance 2 box

"A strategy game with RPG elements".

The Germans got it right (though I'd call it a squad-based tactics game with RPG elements and a strategic overlay).

Yeah, focus is on *elements*. People here make it seem that ja2 = rpg. FarCry 3 has rpg elements, are people calling it an rpg now as well?

The developers don't, that's what matters.

All CRPGs are hybrids of some sort.

 

[l3loodAngel]

RPG is anything we say is an RPG. But to really know whats an RPG you have to analyze each element like mondbut./sarcasm

Strategy. check
resource management. check
party. check
and etc...

 

[uaciaut]

The stretch-goal system is intrinsically flawed, because it encourages that bullshit. The only sensible approach is to treat it like you would any normal investment. You don't buy shares in a company because they've given you a rock-solid guarantee of the product they're making, full specified and locked in - that's how charlatans and pipe-dream money-sinks operate. You look at the company's performance, their general output, their annual reports so you see that they're well-managed and approve of their broad direction, and decide whether they're worth your trust. If they are, then the last thing you want them to do is consult you on what the fuck their next product should be. If you owned Apple shares, and the CEO calls you up to ask what the specs for their next iphone should be, you sell your shares as fast as possible, because holy shit this guy doesn't know anything more about iphones than I do! Sure, get me to fill out a survey of what things I like or don't like in a phone, but don't send me the fucking spec sheet for my personal approval.

I'd much sooner compare a kickstarter with a bond than with a share actually if i HAD to make a comparison to some economics related shit. Thought even then it's a long stretch. Also Apple relies more on marketing than on anything else much like AAA gaming titles do, unless you're trying to say that a wireless headset is the real reason Apple made bank again and it's also what the customers REALLY wanted but they just didn't know they wanted it.

As for stretch-goals - i think it just depends on what approach you want to take. It's obvious that promising certain things can bring even more backers or make current backers increase their pledge but you should always take your position as game dev into account, something that many probably didn't do at first because, well they were desperate for cash. I definitely don't agree that the concept is flawed though, you just need to learn how to promise cool things that leave your some room to work with, e.g. PoE promising a second big city.

Fargo always rubbed me the wrong way since the first time i saw his WL2 trailer which i thought was an unimaginative, poorly made piece of manure to attract the attention of old-school gamers. What really struck a nerve was him actually claiming he wasn't trying to go for a target audience when pretty much every fucking kickstarted isometric RPG obviously did. Anyway his backer trailers continued to be the same, checklist-based-script, cringe-worthy piece of crap and it's obvious that the guy is a business man at heart but it's unlikely that someone who actually worked with great, old-school game-devs on masterpieces and who can run a business at the same time (here's looking at Shafer) is gonna pop up so...

 

[Spectacle]

google jagged alliance 2 box

"A strategy game with RPG elements".

The Germans got it right (though I'd call it a squad-based tactics game with RPG elements and a strategic overlay).

Yeah, focus is on *elements*. People here make it seem that ja2 = rpg. FarCry 3 has rpg elements, are people calling it an rpg now as well?

The thing is that JA2 has more "RPG elements" than most games marketed as "RPGs" nowadays.

 

[i.Razor]

So i guess Fallout Tactics is RPG then?

 

[Excidium II]

is it classified as such?

The line between tactical strategy and rpg is so thin the genre of choice is more about defining audience than anything.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Bullshit. Just fucking admit it. You like to draw line in the sand where you want. FO:BOS is hardly an RPG... Games which you like = RPG, games that you don't like = strategy or anything...