Is dodge rolling a decline mechanic?

[AN0N]

Four Kings begs to differ...

 

[deama]

I can understand annoyance of dodge rolling, but dodge side stapping? What's the problem in that? Someone like geralt wearing light-medium armour should be able to side step here and there fine?
And even then with heavy armour, you can be quite flexible, easily being able to do sidesteps


Is OP complaining about having to press too many buttons in standard action rpgs? Seriously? I want more buttons to be pressed, like hotkeys so I don't have to scroll through that stupid spell list.

 

[Old Hans]

It wasn't until Dark Souls III in 2016 that a substantial number of enemies and bosses required dodge-rolling

it was so bad. I remember pontiff sullivan had all these silly combos, where you had to dodge 50 times in row, which got me into such a rhythm I would hypnotize myself !

 

[Dark Souls II]

Of course, in the pinnacle of digital entertainment - Dark Souls II - you didn't have to dodgeroll if you didn't want to. All due to the superior implementation of the poise mechanic. Oftentimes, the winning stratagem was just circling around the enemy and waiting for the right time to strike. Like in a samurai film, let's say, Kihachi Okimoto's seminal 1966 masterpiece "The Sword of Doom". Rolling like a retard could get you killed pretty fast. There were also many items/spells that could have been used specifically to punish overlyeagerrollers: Crypt Blacksword, Fume UGS, Soul Flash, Red Iron Twinblade (when unlocked could have been used very easily to hit an enemy that's rolling behind your back). Even something as basic bitch as the Sun Sword could counter dodgerollspam (you could always spam the 1HR1 just a little bit more than the other guy could spam roll). Anyway, you could practically counter dodgerollspam with any weapon if you just learned to ditch the training wheels of target locking - without locking, you could always target the spot where the roll ended, instead of targeting the rolling enemy.

Don't know how it is in Elden Ring, never played it, never will. The game looks like Dark Souls for faggots and women, I can tell you this much.

 

[Skinwalker]

is Elden Ring actually a good game? Does it require constant keyboard mashing?

As someone who played the entirety of Dark Souls 3 on mouse and keyboard the first time around, if you're playing any soulsgame on M&K, you're doing it wrong and your opinion doesn't count and you're out-of-touch and embarrassing af.

 

[Vorark]

I don't mind rolling when it's one possible defensive maneuver among others. For example, in the latest Monster Hunter entry (MH Rise, at the moment) you can dodge roll, sidestep, jump evade, counter or simply block an attack. Capcom even added the rally mechanic found in Bloodborne if you wanna go full ham on monsters instead. In general, what moves are available depends on your equipped weapon: dodge rolling is always possible, though not always desirable because you'll either get combo'd to death or be out of position to punish the monster next.

Speaking of Elden Ring in particular, it's not as bad as Dark Souls III was. Yes, dodge roll is the easiest way to avoid damage but at least there are options like the sidestep special move, greatshield guard counters (not really feasible against the more aggressive bosses but very effective otherwise if you have the stamina for it), parries (timing is a bit tight) and, surprisingly, jumping. An improvement over DS3 nerfing guard and poise to the ground, messing with parry windows and removing the rally and sidestep mechanics found in BB. All you could do to defend yourself in that game was... to roll out of the way. There was one decent greatshield but you only had access to it late and needed a bunch of STR to wield it properly.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It wasn't until Dark Souls III in 2016 that a substantial number of enemies and bosses required dodge-rolling

it was so bad. I remember pontiff sullivan had all these silly combos, where you had to dodge 50 times in row, which got me into such a rhythm I would hypnotize myself !

Only 50? Sounds like an improvement over DS2:



As for OP, the mechanic itself isn't a problem, but the way it's been implemented recently has gotten extremely retarded. We went from games where you mostly cared about positioning and only dodged once in a while if some big telegraphed attack was coming for you, to games where everything has a potentially 15 hit combo and you need to dodge roll within a 4 frame window every single time to avoid getting caught by their swiveling and you need to do it on reaction because they're input reading you to change the fucking combo at multiple points.

Quelaag was a better fight than pretty much anything in Elden Ring. They could have made fights like that, tweaked for extra difficulty (longer lava pools, some bigger AoE, close the blindspot under her armpit) but instead everything became the fast paced spammy shit.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

At first I loved rolling out of danger, after 10+ years of every single goddamn game insisting that it's the only valid way of stepping out of danger I'm sick to death of it.

This is the real problem. Most 3D action game and even 2D action game now incorporates dodgeroll/iframe dodge thing with stamina get old real fast.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Skill issue, the thread.

 

[Gerrard]

is Elden Ring actually a good game? Does it require constant keyboard mashing?

As someone who played the entirety of Dark Souls 3 on mouse and keyboard the first time around, if you're playing any soulsgame on M&K, you're doing it wrong and your opinion doesn't count and you're out-of-touch and embarrassing af.

Skill issue.

 

[Skinwalker]

is Elden Ring actually a good game? Does it require constant keyboard mashing?

As someone who played the entirety of Dark Souls 3 on mouse and keyboard the first time around, if you're playing any soulsgame on M&K, you're doing it wrong and your opinion doesn't count and you're out-of-touch and embarrassing af.

Skill issue.

Nope, adapted quite nicely to M&K, which is a lot like saying "adapted quite nicely to using utensils with my feet".

These games were intended for controllers and only controllers, face reality.

 

[Gerrard]

is Elden Ring actually a good game? Does it require constant keyboard mashing?

As someone who played the entirety of Dark Souls 3 on mouse and keyboard the first time around, if you're playing any soulsgame on M&K, you're doing it wrong and your opinion doesn't count and you're out-of-touch and embarrassing af.

Skill issue.

Nope, adapted quite nicely to M&K, which is a lot like saying "adapted quite nicely to using utensils with my feet".

These games were intended for controllers and only controllers, face reality.

That's a cute way to say the devs didn't bother putting any effort in making proper M&K controls. There isn't anything in the game you can't do with M&K, regardless.

 

[Skinwalker]

That's a cute way to say the devs didn't bother putting any effort in making proper M&K controls.

You can put it however you want, the fact remains. This (M&K being vastly inferior to controller) is basically true for most other games as well, except FPS or tactical/isometric games where mouse control is important.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Its not that I don't like dodge rolling. I don't like dodging at all-- even just side to side dodging. I don't like being responsible for blocking with my shield either. If you play with mouse and keyboard you already have your hand on the WASD keys and then your other hand on the mouse with a left-click attack and usually some sort of a right click special attack or maybe healing, or special ability. Then you might have cool down attacks on the number keys and toggle run with the shift key. You will also often have a jump key and a crouch, and a block and or parry key, so to then have to fucking dodge side to side with the Q and E keys and then maybe also a roll dodge by holding down the middle mouse button while pressing a movement key in the correct direction while considering if you want maybe block instead or run or use cool downs, its all just fucking too much bullshit and its not fun, it sucks. We are up to like 17-18 keys I just described. That is not fun.

I played Elden Ring and all three Dark Souls games with mouse & keyboard and your ideas of what it's like is completely wrong.

There is one roll key, and it rolls you into the direction you hold the movement keys into.
Usually the roll key is space (which would be jump in most games - Dark Souls has no dedicated jump key, you jump by sprinting and then hitting the roll key to jump out of the sprint, Elden Ring introduced a jump key which is F by default IIRC).
So if you want to dodge roll to the right, you hold D and hit space. Easy.
The games also have blocking/parrying with shields and weapons. Blocking is set to the right mouse button by default, which is pretty standard for a block button in action RPGs and action games in general.

I don't know where your impression comes from that you'd have to hit directional roll buttons for every direction. I don't know anything about controllers (never owned one in my life, never will) but they don't have that many buttons, I don't think games designed for controllers could even work with so many unique input buttons. Hold down the direction you want to move into, then roll, is how every single game with dodge roll mechanics does it.

still too many keys. Its fine if you guys like it, I think it sucks.

here are all the fighting keys for PC:

WASD
Dodge Roll/Dash/Backstep
Jump
Crouch/Standup
Left Click=RH Attack/2h Attack
Shift+Left Click=Strong Attack (This sucks in a major way, sure you could put it on right mouse button but then block is not convenient)
Shift+Right Click=Use Skill (Again Super fucking sucks to always be hitting shift key while also using WASD, it fucks with fluid movement)
Guard (Right Click)
Use Item

so its 12 main keys, plus swapping items and I don't know how important it is to manipulate the camera or not during combat. Anyway, sorry don't like it for one because blocking and dodging usually just turn into looking for signals or signs that each attacker gives and then just timing the block dodge. I feel like I am playing that old school 'Dragon Lair' game, or some kung-fu action game-- its just an extra layer of arcade gimmick that does not add anything really but to me is just more like a hassle or annoying. It also interferes with smooth moving. I prefer to just move around the screen. I don't get anything extra from the 'dodge' or the 'block' or whatever. i prefer that to just be an RNG as part of my character/weapon build.

Its not worth bothering to want to get proficient at doing those things, its boring and uninteresting and monotonous, but not in a fun relaxing way some action games can be to wind down, but more like I just don't want to be bothered dealing with it. The fighting in action RPG's is already just clicking some buttons and moving around, I play action RPG's to relax and unwind, not annoy myself with extra monotonous key punching.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Is dodge rolling a decline mechanic?​

is Elden Ring actually a good game?

You should have been asking about dodge-rolling in Demon's Souls back in 2009, or at latest about dodge-rolling in Dark Souls when it was ported to the PC in 2012, the year after its PS3 release. However, those two games permit the player to rely on a shield blocking attacks with minimal use of dodging. It wasn't until Dark Souls III in 2016 that a substantial number of enemies and bosses required dodge-rolling rather than blocking, and even in that game it was still possible to rely primarily on blocking.

I suggest playing Dragon's Dogma I & II, Action RPGs where there is no dodge-rolling.

I guess I like isometric Action RPG's. Although I don't mind Grim Dawns Dodge, and that is how I would like it in other games if I had my choice( well RNG based on character weapon set and base stats and class is my 1st choice). I realize Dodge did not get added into GD until relatively late, like in the last year or two, but you can win the game without ever using dodge if you want. The reason I like this design is because since now that I am already very good at the game, using dodge is not actually an annoying burden if I decide to use it, which I sometimes do.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Of course, in the pinnacle of digital entertainment - Dark Souls II - you didn't have to dodgeroll if you didn't want to. All due to the superior implementation of the poise mechanic. Oftentimes, the winning stratagem was just circling around the enemy and waiting for the right time to strike. Like in a samurai film, let's say, Kihachi Okimoto's seminal 1966 masterpiece "The Sword of Doom". Rolling like a retard could get you killed pretty fast. There were also many items/spells that could have been used specifically to punish overlyeagerrollers: Crypt Blacksword, Fume UGS, Soul Flash, Red Iron Twinblade (when unlocked could have been used very easily to hit an enemy that's rolling behind your back). Even something as basic bitch as the Sun Sword could counter dodgerollspam (you could always spam the 1HR1 just a little bit more than the other guy could spam roll). Anyway, you could practically counter dodgerollspam with any weapon if you just learned to ditch the training wheels of target locking - without locking, you could always target the spot where the roll ended, instead of targeting the rolling enemy.

Don't know how it is in Elden Ring, never played it, never will. The game looks like Dark Souls for faggots and women, I can tell you this much.

That sounds pretty good. I never played it, although it is in my steam library, I got it free in a humble bundle once.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

is Elden Ring actually a good game? Does it require constant keyboard mashing?

As someone who played the entirety of Dark Souls 3 on mouse and keyboard the first time around, if you're playing any soulsgame on M&K, you're doing it wrong and your opinion doesn't count and you're out-of-touch and embarrassing af.

Controllers and couch gaming is for the poors. I will never use a controller.

 

[Gerrard]

Shift+Left Click=Strong Attack (This sucks in a major way, sure you could put it on right mouse button but then block is not convenient)
Shift+Right Click=Use Skill (Again Super fucking sucks to always be hitting shift key while also using WASD, it fucks with fluid movement)

Or you could get a mouse with more than 3 buttons like a normal person.

 

[what am i doing]

Dodge rolling sucks and it's gay. It looks goofy as fuck. And it's doubly retarded if it comes with "i-frames".

Parrying though, parrying is a god-tier mechanic that actually rewards skillful timing instead of just "press button to become invincible and roll out of harm's way".

 

[Ezekiel]

Its not that I don't like dodge rolling. I don't like dodging at all-- even just side to side dodging. I don't like being responsible for blocking with my shield either. If you play with mouse and keyboard you already have your hand on the WASD keys and then your other hand on the mouse with a left-click attack and usually some sort of a right click special attack or maybe healing, or special ability. Then you might have cool down attacks on the number keys and toggle run with the shift key. You will also often have a jump key and a crouch, and a block and or parry key, so to then have to fucking dodge side to side with the Q and E keys and then maybe also a roll dodge by holding down the middle mouse button while pressing a movement key in the correct direction while considering if you want maybe block instead or run or use cool downs, its all just fucking too much bullshit and its not fun, it sucks. We are up to like 17-18 keys I just described. That is not fun.

I played Elden Ring and all three Dark Souls games with mouse & keyboard and your ideas of what it's like is completely wrong.

There is one roll key, and it rolls you into the direction you hold the movement keys into.
Usually the roll key is space (which would be jump in most games - Dark Souls has no dedicated jump key, you jump by sprinting and then hitting the roll key to jump out of the sprint, Elden Ring introduced a jump key which is F by default IIRC).
So if you want to dodge roll to the right, you hold D and hit space. Easy.
The games also have blocking/parrying with shields and weapons. Blocking is set to the right mouse button by default, which is pretty standard for a block button in action RPGs and action games in general.

I don't know where your impression comes from that you'd have to hit directional roll buttons for every direction. I don't know anything about controllers (never owned one in my life, never will) but they don't have that many buttons, I don't think games designed for controllers could even work with so many unique input buttons. Hold down the direction you want to move into, then roll, is how every single game with dodge roll mechanics does it.

still too many keys. Its fine if you guys like it, I think it sucks.

here are all the fighting keys for PC:

WASD
Dodge Roll/Dash/Backstep
Jump
Crouch/Standup
Left Click=RH Attack/2h Attack
Shift+Left Click=Strong Attack (This sucks in a major way, sure you could put it on right mouse button but then block is not convenient)
Shift+Right Click=Use Skill (Again Super fucking sucks to always be hitting shift key while also using WASD, it fucks with fluid movement)
Guard (Right Click)
Use Item

so its 12 main keys, plus swapping items and I don't know how important it is to manipulate the camera or not during combat. Anyway, sorry don't like it for one because blocking and dodging usually just turn into looking for signals or signs that each attacker gives and then just timing the block dodge. I feel like I am playing that old school 'Dragon Lair' game, or some kung-fu action game-- its just an extra layer of arcade gimmick that does not add anything really but to me is just more like a hassle or annoying. It also interferes with smooth moving. I prefer to just move around the screen. I don't get anything extra from the 'dodge' or the 'block' or whatever. i prefer that to just be an RNG as part of my character/weapon build.

Its not worth bothering to want to get proficient at doing those things, its boring and uninteresting and monotonous, but not in a fun relaxing way some action games can be to wind down, but more like I just don't want to be bothered dealing with it. The fighting in action RPG's is already just clicking some buttons and moving around, I play action RPG's to relax and unwind, not annoy myself with extra monotonous key punching.

I made a thread here called "The run button is out of control," about too many modern games having a run button. Almost all of them. I do agree with you that devs waste buttons to fill out the expected checkboxes. Devs used to do more with less. I don't even really see smart button combinations anymore. You can create more moves by combining button presses, logical extensions.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Shift+Left Click=Strong Attack (This sucks in a major way, sure you could put it on right mouse button but then block is not convenient)
Shift+Right Click=Use Skill (Again Super fucking sucks to always be hitting shift key while also using WASD, it fucks with fluid movement)

Or you could get a mouse with more than 3 buttons like a normal person.

I have a gaming mouse, it still does not make any of that any more enjoyable. It still just dressed up kung-fu type game mechanics combined with dragons lair mechanics from way back in the quarter arcade days.

 

[Ash]

You should have been asking about dodge-rolling in Demon's Souls back in 2009

Why? Why not top quality classic Japanese action games Ninja Gaiden (2004) and DMC (2001), among others? They both have dodge rolling used very frequently.

Sorry, just ticks me off that in the eyes of the uncultured gamer, hardcore quality 3D hack n slash action games apparently didn't exist until Souls came along. Or the worst gamer of all (not you), "souls difficulty" perception - games weren't difficult until Souls came along, and souls is the defacto difficult game.

...every second console game was like that in the 90s or harder. Not to mention the brutal hell of 80s games.

 

[Ezekiel]

You should have been asking about dodge-rolling in Demon's Souls back in 2009

Why? Why not top quality classic Japanese action games Ninja Gaiden (2004) and DMC (2001), among others? They both have dodge rolling used very frequently.

Sorry, just ticks me off that in the eyes of the uncultured gamer, hardcore quality 3D hack n slash action games apparently didn't exist until Souls came along. Or the worst gamer of all (not you), "souls difficulty" perception - games weren't difficult until Souls came along, and souls is the defacto difficult game.

...every second console game was like that in the 90s or harder. Not to mention the brutal hell of 80s games.

At least Devil May Cry did not waste a button for dodge-rolling (and run). Only made it an option while using the superior Z-targeting, with that button otherwise being Jump.

I have Ninja Gaiden Sigma, but didn't finish it before my PS3 choked on The Sopranos and don't remember how it is handled there.

 

[Matador]

You should have been asking about dodge-rolling in Demon's Souls back in 2009

Why? Why not top quality classic Japanese action games Ninja Gaiden (2004) and DMC (2001), among others? They both have dodge rolling used very frequently.

Sorry, just ticks me off that in the eyes of the uncultured gamer, hardcore quality 3D hack n slash action games apparently didn't exist until Souls came along. Or the worst gamer of all (not you), "souls difficulty" perception - games weren't difficult until Souls came along, and souls is the defacto difficult game.

...every second console game was like that in the 90s or harder. Not to mention the brutal hell of 80s games.

At least Devil May Cry did not waste a button for dodge-rolling (and run). Only made it an option while using the superior Z-targeting, with that button otherwise being Jump.

I have Ninja Gaiden Sigma, but didn't finish it before my PS3 choked on The Sopranos and don't remember how it is handled there.

In Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma you need both blocking and rolling, you also have timed counterattacks available. Rolling is used to move around enemy packs for target priorization. It is strong, but the enemies and encounters are very nasty in that game; no trash mobs.

You also can use jump and wall running to avoid attacks, move and position yourself in fights. While jumping you can use the flying swallow attack to get fast to an enemy, but is very punishable if it misses or done in the wrong situation. You can also throw enemies while jumping, very useful for crowd control.

Blocking is also strong but there are grabs and strong attacks that break it, so you can get reckt if you just sit and block.

Also shurikens available to mini stun enemies from distance or juggle them in combos.

So movement and defense has a lot of depth in NG, and is in direct relationship with attack due to counterattacks and jumping attacks.

Other games have gone the lazy path of dodger roll as one for all defense magic button.

 

[HumanTotemPole]

Dodge rolling is fine. People get pissed off about it because it's (arguably) the primary damage mitigation mechanic in Fromsoft games leading to Memeazaki and co coming up with increasingly Kafkaesque countermeasures over time.