Is there any value in allowing characters to walk rather than run in an isometric RPG?

[Hace El Oso]

If you can’t read, you can’t write. If you can’t write, you can’t speak. If you can’t speak, you can’t think. That shallowing and slowing of speech you find everywhere now is just the next casualty on this strange road to total human retardation.

 

[InSight]

Underrail is absolutely not an example of a game that gives incentives for being slow. You don't conserve stamina if you choose to walk slow. You don't search better if you choose to walk slow. You don't learn more secrets if you choose to walk slow. You can't choose to be fast or slow, you're just slow.

While not from mechanical ,on ideal perspective/standard/factor, there is a perceived/imaginary incentive for being slow.
Underrail depict environments/areas of underground world. Tunnels, caverns are dark places, and artificial light is not of the same quality/power/flow of sunlight. A poor light> poorer/lower data/info transfer. Taking reality into consideration, running in such dark places, could result in death as tumbling in a hard to see place can result in being impaled on stone pike or suddenly finding into dangerous(life & situation) encounter as the game depicts. To avoid such fate, it its natural to assume for the Player Character, which depicted as mortal, to be constantly cautious and thus slow & steady. Exception would place's such as Hardcore city, which have wide and better lighted area's yet even there there is depiction of falling off toward death. One has to be slow to assert the situation, which fits the mindset for most tactical/strategic games(which are turned based).
With the aid of such mindset, the default pacing of the game is not bothersome(at least for one complete play-through) for it fits with the world settings/depictions.

It can be more bothersome/jarring/lacking that there were no animation/depiction of crawling, specifically for vent pipe exploration. Being a dark & tighter place(low ceiling preventing standing people from fitting), it would have been sufficient to have one fit pitch black sprites for crawling instead of many based on armor depiction.

If memory correct, one can choose to be slow relative to what possible in the game, by becoming encumbered.

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In the beginning, "hit points" absolutely did not represent sheer structural damage capacity. No one thought a fighter was getting hit in the neck with a heavy axe and laughing it off.
From Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Players Handbook, 1st Ed., 1978, p. 34:
Gary Fucking Gygax said:

A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us supposed that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

By that logic/reason/description that of physical punishment, every moment and movement in combat(a state/situation that greatly strains) be it swing of a sword(which is a light weapon) or a dodge should have cost in physical punishment.
Armor Class(AC), which reduces the probability of being hit, further complicate it.
There is disconnect with the name and its implication, hit-points. Hit implies being touched with a force.
The rule considers one side of the process, the target/s at a turn, not both the target & director at once.
Confusion to these not aware of the rule description, is reasonable/expected, an example of a disconnect leading to a further disconnect.

But video game makers didn't have the ability to portray these subtleties.

They did with the text, unless one refers to the inability to imagine/visualize thus have better/greater/detailed depictions in text which may be applied to some programmers be it due to lack of combat experience/sources or other explanation/reason. They could have a text box describing the process to both the target and hitter. example:"Charname" feinted an upper sword slash at OrcB, changing trajectory towards its belly once OrcB shield was lifted upwards, the sword hits causing a bloody wound, OrcB growls and steps back. OrcC attempted to spear "Charname" but due to a sunray dazing its eye's it misses by inch the head.
Potray= to represent or describe someone or something in a painting, film, book, or other be it words or images.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Fuck walking. It makes games more slow, not more fun.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Incidentally this is also why I didn't give two shits about Morrowind's travel system. I'd rather have New Vegas' or Skyrim's over Morrowind's, since as "immersive" as Morrowind's travel system tried to be, you are still teleporting from A to B. It works for Mages Guild travel system and Mark/Recall/Intervention, where you are literally teleporting. But when you are travelling in a Silt Strider or a boat, it sure feels odd that the game treats it as just teleportation by a different method.

You could improve the system by having a possibility of random encounters with co-passengers. Not a combat encounters, but a talk encounter. You even could have it start of a quest.

 

[EldarEldrad]

If you can’t write, you can’t speak. If you can’t speak, you can’t think.

So millions of uneducated people in Medieval couldn't speak, right?
So millions of mute people can't think, right?

Just asking though.

 

[Hace El Oso]

So millions of uneducated people in Medieval couldn't speak, right?
So millions of mute people can't think, right?

Just asking though.

Something is being lost, now. It’s not the same as peasants, medieval or otherwise, not knowing how to read. You’re dealing with people who in the space of ~30 years have abandoned vast swaths of vital modern human faculties that are mandatory for existence in that modern society. It’s like those peasants being unwilling and unable to learn how to farm or hunt.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

People now read/write more than 30 years ago. The problem is that they read/write garbage.

 

[Hace El Oso]

People now read/write more than 30 years ago. The problem is that they read/write garbage.

I don’t believe it for a second. Almost everybody used to read books, many constantly, and not just the wealthy. Children, especially boys, were glued to books. Any decent newsagent or bookstore was absolutely packed with huge newspapers which were themselves packed solid with small print. If you’re old enough (30-35+) it is an entirely different world than it was.

I’m sure that I could find ‘proof’ of this rapid, total decline with just a few moments searching, but my experiences are enough evidence for me.

Anyway, this thread is about walking in RPGs so I’ll leave it there.

 

[JarlFrank]

Rusty, your wise councel is needed on this question: why have voice acting if you can read the same speech in less time? Shld w ls dspns wth vcls?

voice acting in games is almost always excruciatingly slow, as if they're being told to speak slower for the benefit of ESLs or something

I'm ESL and I don't have any problems understanding fast-talking murricans.

I think there's other reasons for VA being slow. Either they want to make sure the character sounds "epic" or something, or they make it deliberately slow for people who are... well, slow

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I think it is mostly cosmetic, but it is also tied with how you prefer to play. If you like slow exploration, talking to everyone, looking into every container, it is good to have an option to walk. Running around is just... it doesn't feel good. If you want to finish the game ASAP, then you will want to always run, but this is not what I usually want. In action RPGs like Diablo, yes, it makes sense because you are almost always fighting, but even there I would rather walk in towns.

I always try to talk to everyone and look in every container and I assure you walking would make this worse. When you try to be a completionist you need to move more, which makes slow walking speed more bothersome.

 

[Sigourn]

Incidentally this is also why I didn't give two shits about Morrowind's travel system. I'd rather have New Vegas' or Skyrim's over Morrowind's, since as "immersive" as Morrowind's travel system tried to be, you are still teleporting from A to B. It works for Mages Guild travel system and Mark/Recall/Intervention, where you are literally teleporting. But when you are travelling in a Silt Strider or a boat, it sure feels odd that the game treats it as just teleportation by a different method.

You could improve the system by having a possibility of random encounters with co-passengers. Not a combat encounters, but a talk encounter. You even could have it start of a quest.

I thought of combat encounters in the past. Like imagining riding the strider just to come across a flock of cliffracers attacking the poor thing. Talk encounters are nice too, and would make things more immersive as you hear rumours from the caravaneer on your way to destinations.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Rusty, your wise councel is needed on this question: why have voice acting if you can read the same speech in less time? Shld w ls dspns wth vcls?

I'll give my foolish council: I wouldn't make it a priority. And if you make it unskippable you are a terrible game dev and belong in hell. But, if you have resources to spare on polish, go nuts and put in voice acting. Just realize most people are going to skip it.

"press x not to die"

Ah I see. You fear having to press buttons to succeed in a game. Sad.

You magnificent bastard. Well played sir.

 

[Glop_dweller]

Has the point been lost as well? It was never stated or implied that the PCs cannot run; it was that the [inXile] developer did not comprehend why the PC should be able to walk.

___________

As far as "speed based perception" goes... it can be beside the point —shouldn't IMO, but it can be. Running around a city opening trash cans would seem to be unaffected, as the game would not be concealing barrels from a running PC.

 

[Zombra]

I think it is mostly cosmetic, but it is also tied with how you prefer to play. If you like slow exploration, talking to everyone, looking into every container, it is good to have an option to walk. Running around is just... it doesn't feel good. If you want to finish the game ASAP, then you will want to always run, but this is not what I usually want. In action RPGs like Diablo, yes, it makes sense because you are almost always fighting, but even there I would rather walk in towns.

I always try to talk to everyone and look in every container and I assure you walking would make this worse. When you try to be a completionist you need to move more, which makes slow walking speed more bothersome.

Yes, but we've already established that you are weird

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Has the point been lost as well? It was never stated or implied that the PCs cannot run; it was that the [inXile] developer did not comprehend why the PC should be able to walk.

If you miss things by running then it is the same as not being able to run for many players.

 

[Glop_dweller]

I expect that there are people who despise racing games, yet play them, and lament control issues that are actually core gameplay for racing games. I know for a fact that there are people who play RPGs and lament even the base premise.

This is part of the argument by some that anything can be an RPG; Mario Bros lets you roleplay a plumber—except ...it's not. Mario Bros [platformer] games are about running from point A to B efficiently, and looting all that you can. Roleplaying games are not.

* Yes there is a joke to be had in there about it, because one usually does the very same in RPGs, but that's ancillary at best.

 

[Zombra]

While not from mechanical ,on ideal perspective/standard/factor, there is a perceived/imaginary incentive for being slow [in UnderRail].
Underrail depict environments/areas of underground world. Tunnels, caverns are dark places, and artificial light is not of the same quality/power/flow of sunlight. It its natural to assume for the Player Character, which depicted as mortal, to be constantly cautious and thus slow & steady.

That's not what I mean when I say "incentive" in this context. I mean a measurable, mechanical motivation to do a thing, like loot, xp or other game reward. UnderRail forced you to be slow all the time, but there was no game reward for being slow - in fact it makes no sense to talk about rewarding slow speed because the player had no choice.

Personally, and I'm sure this will astonish my opponents in the thread, I hated the forced slow speed in UnderRail and it's why I stopped playing. I never bothered to pick it up again after the speed patch or whatever it was.

 

[samuraigaiden]

The value of any mechanic is determined by how it interacts with the systems. Implementing both walk and run animations without giving a reason for the player to use one over the other is waste of development time. However, implementing both walk and run animations and giving players reasons to use both will result in a richer gameplay experience.

 

[Glop_dweller]

An RPG lacking the ability for the characters to walk, is lacking the ability for the characters to move plausibly; made worse by the walking (and likely never running) NPCs.

 

[Sigourn]

The value of any mechanic is determined by how it interacts with the systems. Implementing both walk and run animations without giving a reason for the player to use one over the other is waste of development time. However, implementing both walk and run animations and giving players reasons to use both will result in a richer gameplay experience.

Implementing walk and run animations is on the same level as implementing detailed graphics over simple ones.
I don't think walking animations need to be justified any more than "detailed" graphics. There's no mechanical interaction when it comes to the portraits in Baldur's Gate.

 

[J1M]

...good response from the dev

Ignorant response from the dev. Aside from making an RPG [and hence a PC that cannot walk, and so will act out of character at times], they were also making a followup to Planescape, which even had a quest that required not running.

good response, people who turn on walking in video games just so they can "roleplay" are weirdos

The run button is the only gameplay available in most walking simulators.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

An RPG lacking the ability for the characters to walk, is lacking the ability for the characters to move plausibly; made worse by the walking (and likely never running) NPCs.

What about the ability for characters to perform bowel movements plausibly?

 

[King Crispy]

Has the point been lost as well?

It was lost pages ago.

This thread is now a deep dive into the autism pool.

 

[Zombra]

An RPG lacking the ability for the characters to walk, is lacking the ability for the characters to move plausibly; made worse by the walking (and likely never running) NPCs.

What about the ability for characters to perform bowel movements plausibly?

Your strawman has been beaten into shreds at this point. Keep whacking at it if you want but no one is impressed.

For about the 1000th time, it's not about portraying every boring event in a character's life. It's about the events that ARE portrayed being portrayed with verisimilitude.

Movement is an inescapable part of games. What's in the game should look good. Therefore the movement should look good. That's it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

An RPG lacking the ability for the characters to walk, is lacking the ability for the characters to move plausibly; made worse by the walking (and likely never running) NPCs.

What about the ability for characters to perform bowel movements plausibly?

Your strawman has been beaten into shreds at this point. Keep whacking at it if you want but no one is impressed.

For about the 1000th time, it's not about portraying every boring event in a character's life. It's about the events that ARE portrayed being portrayed with verisimilitude.

Movement is an inescapable part of games. What's in the game should look good. Therefore the movement should look good. That's it.

Seems you just care about things you like and dismiss anything you dislike as unimportant to me.