Company News Is Troika Dead?

[Claw]

There's just one strange thing I noticed. I heard complaints about the quality of Trokia's games, then I heard the management screwed up, and that the poor employees got screwed.
Doesn't anyone blame the actual developers of the game for the flaws? I mean, it stands to reason - they made the game, you weren't satisfied. And it's all the management's fault?
Since people brought up Interplay in comaprison, the management of Iplay wasn't blamed without reason. It was criticized for specific decisions, noteably the decision to cancel development of games like Van Buren while spending the last money on cheap console games that predictably failed.
So what exactly did the management of Trokia do to deserve the spite?

Oh.. and I find the debate about bugs too silly. First someone calls Trokia's games buggy, then someone else says the opposite and lists problems with other games.
I have experienced FPS hickups in most games. UT2004 was seriously unstable for two or three builds, with memory leaks reducing the framerate to single digits. I had to use a fanmade patch for Baldur's Gate because there was no official patch available. That wasn't the first release but the edition with ToSC included. The list goes on and on and on.
I have seen plenty of debates about the bugginess of games and they always just demonstrate the egotism of people judging games. A game works for them, it's gold and the people who complain are noobs and morons who should get a better PC, a game doesn't work for them and it's crap even if it ran fine for everyone else.
That renders the whole debate irrelevant. Personally I found most bugs easy to endure if the game is good. Vice City sometimes freezes for 2-3 seconds, and I don't care because the rest of the time it's great fun to play. On my first computer I experienced a game-stopping bug early in Monkey Island 2, and it was never resolved, I just found a workaround. Do I trash the game for it? No, I know it ran fine for most people. It sucks but that's a common problem with PC games. I would only be convinced that a game is seriously buggy when both sides say it's awfully buggy, rather than throwing arguments around why the bugy in one game are worse than the bugs in another.

 

[dojoteef]

Claw, I think you missed the point. I explained exactly why it is management's fault the game's weren't the quality that they should be. The job of the people managing the project is to ensure the game comes out on time in a quality state. That means they should constantly be checking the progress of the project making sure that things get completed on time. If they are on an budget set by the publishers then obviously they can't hire more people in order to ensure they finsih making a polished game on time. Instead what they have to do is start to cut content. That is management's job. The rest of the employees simply do what they are told. They don't get the luxury of saying, yeah, I'm not going to do this because I don't think I have time. They'd get fired for doing something like that.

As for the bugginess issue. I think the problem stems from the fact that people became impatient with Troika after the ToEE release. There were a LOT of bugs and they weren't able to release a patch for a while. With most titles people do release patches fairly quickly, because they are playing their games to completion before the consumer gets it, so they know what obvious bugs there are. The problem then becomes what bugs to fix. When a game has as many CTD bugs as ToEE had, those are the priority. Fixing spells gets sidelined. ToEE was a mismanaged project which is what allowed so many bugs to be in the retail release. They had initially conceived of putting 50 spells in the game but ended up putting 250. They should instead have focused on making the game as bug free as possible.

If you can't understand these concepts, then go ahead, bitch and moan.

 

[Duodenum]

Each of Troika's games were published by different companies. You have to wonder why none of those three companies was willing to work with the developer again.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Were you born yesterday? This is the gaming industry of the 21st century - unless you make FPS or a super-hit, you're all fired. Has nothing to do with how Troika does its job.

 

[Volourn]

Don't be retarded. Or an idiot. Or a moron. It does have to do with how Troika does its job. If they fail; it's their fault. If they succeed, it's their fault. Period. Stop the finger pointing.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

What finger-pointing? I just said that it's Troika's fault for failing to release a super-hit that got them walking from publisher to publisher, dumbass.

 

[Volourn]

"Has nothing to do with how Troika does its job."

Nonsense. This implies that Troika did nothing to possibly deserve to be in this stgate. Like I said finger pointing. Sure, youa re trying to be sublt;e but it's obvious what you are eluding to unless one happens to be a moron.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

No, it implies that even if Troika did a good QA on all of their projects, they would still be in the same shit they are today because none of their games is the super-hit material.

 

[Duodenum]

Were you born yesterday? This is the gaming industry of the 21st century - unless you make FPS or a super-hit, you're all fired. Has nothing to do with how Troika does its job.

The publishers in the gaming industry of the 21st century are well aware of what types of games can and cannot succeed. They don't give their money lightly, because they weren't born yesterday. They would not have funded Troika's efforts if they didn't think they'd get a return on their investment.

So what happened? Why, given the fact that each of these publishers believed in Troika enough to fund ONE game, did these publishers then elect not to pursue further game development opportunities with Troika? Let's get one thing straight -- publishers do not fund game development in a vacuum. They are well aware at every stage of the game they're funding -- what kind of game it is, the features, as well as game progress, QA efforts, etc.

It's not me you're accusing of being naive, but the publishers -- and I think that is a little naive on your part.

 

[Mech]

No, it implies that even if Troika did a good QA on all of their projects, they would still be in the same shit they are today because none of their games is the super-hit material.

Quality assurance has nothing to do with how the games were made in the first place, but okay....

 

[Avé]

Well.

Troika got a reputation for releasing buggy games and not patching them, right?

Who exactly has heard of this reputation, or believes in it?


cRPG fans? fallout fans? erstwhile troika fans?

I can assure you that the average person walking into a shop and seeing Bloodlines doesnt know about it.

I'm fairly sure there reputation didnt negatively impact the sales in a major way, just like being Troika and the "KREAT0RS OF FALLOUT" didnt positively affect it in a major way either.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

It's not me you're accusing of being naive, but the publishers -- and I think that is a little naive on your part.

Right. And the reason why less than 10% of games break even is because publishers are being defrauded by developers who keep fucking up!

 

[Sol Invictus]

If Troika's previous customers weren't so jaded by their releases of Arcanum (I don't care if you liked the game, some people didn't.) and TOEE, they'd have likely bought the Bloodlines too, and that would have probably added a large number of sales. Of course, a lot of the people who even liked TOEE didn't want to touch Bloodlines because it didn't really pass itself off as a hardcore RPG. The previews covered most of the FPS aspects and little else.

 

[MarFish]

As for the bugginess issue. I think the problem stems from the fact that people became impatient with Troika after the ToEE release. There were a LOT of bugs and they weren't able to release a patch for a while.

I think there is another reason. Remember the press release that ToEE would suddenly be released earlier because Atari and Troika developed a time machine? Seriously, how can you justify an early release on a game that is as bug ridden as ToEE.

And then there came Vampire and the little story about how long the game has been done already and just had to wait for HL2 to release ... Such things make people think "wow, they got enough time to polish" and then they get a definitly unpolished game (starting at the very opening cutscene) that was good up to the point where they obviously run out of time and filled the rest of the game with combat.

No, fans can be very forgiving when it comes to bugs, but if you lie to them, openly or not, they get upset.

I'm sad to see Troika go, but I would be lying if I'd say I'm surprised - had they built a strong name based on their own work rather than the daring but always niche, flawed and bugged, I would say that there might be a publisher interested in at least their name, but I don't see that. The name Troika bears no weight outside the hardcore CRPG community, and that's not enough to compete in the market anymore.

Hell, ToEE might have even been commercially successful, at least at the borderline, after all it sold slightly more than one of the NWN expansions accoring to Atari's quarterly report start of last year, but with that bugfest they destroyed a lot of credibilty - pretty much everyone I know went -Bloodlines, eh? I might give it a try after two weeks of reviews, no need for another ToEE like bugfest-

 

[MarFish]

Were you born yesterday? This is the gaming industry of the 21st century - unless you make FPS or a super-hit, you're all fired. Has nothing to do with how Troika does its job.

There is JoWood's Gothic, Obsidian's, Bethesda's and BioWare's Games all making your statement look like you don't know a shit about the stuff you are talking about. In fact, Bethesda is the best example how you can create games that are successful but not super hits for a decade and still be around to make a hit like Morrowind (which sold very well).

You make it sound like super hits are random, unpredictable events and not the work of people doing their job right. Sometimes (The Sims) that might be the case, but looking at, let's say KotOR, Neverwinter or Baldur's Gate II (all sold more than 2M copies according to Bio), it's a bit hard to speak about an accidental hit anymore. Yea, I know, marketing, hype and other excuses will follow to this statement, but that's part of the "good job" too - you can make the best buns in town, if you can't sell them or ensure that your contractors sell them well, you're still a failure and not doing your job.

 

[Avé]

If Troika's previous customers weren't so jaded by their releases of Arcanum (I don't care if you liked the game, some people didn't.) and TOEE, they'd have likely bought the Bloodlines too, and that would have probably added a large number of sales. Of course, a lot of the people who even liked TOEE didn't want to touch Bloodlines because it didn't really pass itself off as a hardcore RPG. The previews covered most of the FPS aspects and little else.

I think you overestimate just how many "troika fans" their are out there.

I know I didnt buy bloodlines because it was troika, nor did pretty much anyone who I know outside this forum.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Anyone know if anything has been said yet?

 

[MarFish]

If Troika's previous customers weren't so jaded by their releases of Arcanum (I don't care if you liked the game, some people didn't.) and TOEE, they'd have likely bought the Bloodlines too, and that would have probably added a large number of sales. Of course, a lot of the people who even liked TOEE didn't want to touch Bloodlines because it didn't really pass itself off as a hardcore RPG. The previews covered most of the FPS aspects and little else.

I think you overestimate just how many "troika fans" their are out there.

I know I didnt buy bloodlines because it was troika, nor did pretty much anyone who I know outside this forum.

I think you underestimate the damaging power of a negative name on the box.

 

[Avé]

If Troika's previous customers weren't so jaded by their releases of Arcanum (I don't care if you liked the game, some people didn't.) and TOEE, they'd have likely bought the Bloodlines too, and that would have probably added a large number of sales. Of course, a lot of the people who even liked TOEE didn't want to touch Bloodlines because it didn't really pass itself off as a hardcore RPG. The previews covered most of the FPS aspects and little else.

I think you overestimate just how many "troika fans" their are out there.

I know I didnt buy bloodlines because it was troika, nor did pretty much anyone who I know outside this forum.

I think you underestimate the damaging power of a negative name on the box.

Who knows it damaging?

Average joe doesnt even identify with the developer, since its the publishers name everywhere.

If there are 100's of thousands of troika fans, where are they exactly, and why didnt they buy any of the games?

 

[Fez]

A lot of people don't even know the difference between a publisher and a developer. If they do begin to identify logos then they notice the publisher first. I'd like some figures though on how many 'ignorant masses' buy games compared to the more dedicated gamer, someone who might read forums and visit fan sites.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I think it's completely ignorant to say that nobody didn't buy the game because of Troika. Many of the people on the Obsidian Entertainment forums didn't buy the game precisely because it was from Troika and wanted to wait for impressions and reviews before buying it. Word of mouth does get around.

 

[Avé]

A lot of people don't even know the difference between a publisher and a developer. If they do begin to identify logos then they notice the publisher first. I'd like some figures though on how many 'ignorant masses' buy games compared to the more dedicated gamer, someone who might read forums and visit fan sites.

I'm afraid to admit I was one of those who didnt identify between them until I became quite a proficient internet user.

The first wake up call, was when I said infogrames was my favourite developer, and Shinji(rob fahey of gamesindustry.biz & eurogamer.net fame) laughing at me and calling me an idiot.

I think it's completely ignorant to say that nobody didn't buy the game because of Troika. Many of the people on the Obsidian Entertainment forums didn't buy the game precisely because it was from Troika and wanted to wait for impressions and reviews before buying it. Word of mouth does get around.

No-one said "nobody", I said that I think people are overestimating it.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

There is JoWood's Gothic, Obsidian's, Bethesda's and BioWare's Games all making your statement look like you don't know a shit about the stuff you are talking about. In fact, Bethesda is the best example how you can create games that are successful but not super hits for a decade and still be around to make a hit like Morrowind (which sold very well).

Not really. Gothic was a hit. KOTOR2 was Obsidian's first game, and a sequel to a hit. Bioware and Bethesda were well-prepared for 21st century game industry woes.

You make it sound like super hits are random, unpredictable events and not the work of people doing their job right.

If you don't like the word "random", perhaps "stock market" might be a better analogy.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

Were you born yesterday? This is the gaming industry of the 21st century - unless you make FPS or a super-hit, you're all fired. Has nothing to do with how Troika does its job.

riiiiiiight.

 

[Volourn]

"I know I didnt buy bloodlines because it was troika, nor did pretty much anyone who I know outside this forum."

Well, as much as I rag on Troika, they are the only reason why I even give Vampire a chance. Throughout its development I wa splanning to avoid them; but between what I sw of the character system, what they said specificallu, and tyhe fact that its Troika got me to buy the game.

I don't totally regret it as I did enjoy it. However, it should have been so much better in so many ways....