Game News Jeff Vogel Responding To Critics

[Mangoose]

They post a lot and drown out others as well as possibly an overall decline of adult discourse taking place here over time. Decline threads date back to 2004.

I said this in Jeff's blog and I'll say it here. This forum, any forum, and in fact, in real life, the "adult discourse" is going to be drowned out by the immature sheeple. But the negative banter here is 100% better than going to ESF where idiots argue how to LARP correctly, or Bioware Social where the largest threads are fan threads about their favorite characters.

Why do I prefer the negativity? It's really simple, and not really relevant - negativity is funny. I laugh a lot more going through the Codex. Don't know why negativity breeds humor so well, but it's the same reason why we celebrate Roasts and comedians make a living making fun of other real people.

 

[DakaSha]

*Deleted post due to misunderstanding Monocause'. I see you meant on his blog. My bad

 

[felipepepe]

Guys. Jeff offered to listen and take part in a CIVIL discussion. C-I-V-I-L. As in, not calling him a whining hands-over-the-head-lalala something. And whoever that fucking moron with the witty "needing a tutorial to register" comment should cut his own balls off. For science.

He is not a codexer and thus has no obligation to adhere to Codexian rules of conduct. He will do what every sane person does when assaulted by some internet toughguys - tell you to go fuck yourself and stop listening.

Perhaps VD should approach him with a design discussion proposition? Now that Avadon's out and some drama entailed the two of them coud have an interesting exchange about some of the mechanics and their understanding of the gaming market. That could be actually, you know, constructive - unlike alienating every non-aspie on the internet.

Indeed. Some people spend so much time on the internet they believe all discussions have to include random profanity "cause that's how da internet works, you fag".

But I dont think Jeff would join us in a debate, even in a more civilized one, especially after this:

"They were forsaken by Sir-Tech, and Origin, and SSI, and Bioware, and now me."

He's being crystal clear, the Codex is not his focus anymore.

 

[Excidium]

They post a lot and drown out others as well as possibly an overall decline of adult discourse taking place here over time. Decline threads date back to 2004.

I said this in Jeff's blog and I'll say it here. This forum, any forum, and in fact, in real life, the "adult discourse" is going to be drowned out by the immature sheeple. But the negative banter here is 100% better than going to ESF where idiots argue how to LARP correctly, or Bioware Social where the largest threads are fan threads about their favorite characters.

Why do I prefer the negativity? It's really simple, and not really relevant - negativity is funny. I laugh a lot more going through the Codex. Don't know why negativity breeds humor so well, but it's the same reason why we celebrate Roasts and comedians make a living making fun of other real people.

 

[Hamster]

Perhaps VD should approach him with a design discussion proposition?

Or someone from Codex can invite him for a discussion on ITS as a kind of "neutral ground" to keep it civil.

 

[DakaSha]

They post a lot and drown out others as well as possibly an overall decline of adult discourse taking place here over time. Decline threads date back to 2004.

I said this in Jeff's blog and I'll say it here. This forum, any forum, and in fact, in real life, the "adult discourse" is going to be drowned out by the immature sheeple. But the negative banter here is 100% better than going to ESF where idiots argue how to LARP correctly, or Bioware Social where the largest threads are fan threads about their favorite characters.

Why do I prefer the negativity? It's really simple, and not really relevant - negativity is funny. I laugh a lot more going through the Codex. Don't know why negativity breeds humor so well, but it's the same reason why we celebrate Roasts and comedians make a living making fun of other real people.

A lot of overly negative assholes here are also completely aware of what they are doing and are able to snap into 'normalo' mode in a heartbeat if they need to. There is a lot of semi-trolling sarcasm here and for the most part it usually just creates valid (although heated) discussions about a multitude of things that wouldn't even be brought into question elsewhere because you would be banned in a single plank time.
Plenty of faggotry (and fuck yes I'm part of it.. I don't claim to be any less fag) here but the forum as a whole is the best place I've come across for discussing just about anything... and if you don't feel like straining your braincells (like me in most cases) then just be a dumbass.. who cares as long as you aren't actually spamming the place making it unreadable. It usually turns out hilarious.
If you dont like it then DONT POST IT ON YOUR BLOG. Is the whole internet not allowed to say anything about jeff or his games because of the 'love and dedication' he put into them? Fuck no and fuck that faggot. I hope he's crying

 

[Azrael the cat]

In my early 40s and a gamer since PONG. Been through the phases of "Am I outgrowing gaming?" and "If only games were like the good old days" etc.
I bought the Geneforge series collection CD when it came out and enjoyed playing them back to back.
We all know there are a lot of immature punks and pirates on this site. They post a lot and drown out others as well as possibly an overall decline of adult discourse taking place here over time. Decline threads date back to 2004.
Cut Jeff some slack and support the indie.

You won't find much disagreement about the quality of the Geneforge series - some disagreement perhaps, but most folk here either like them or ignore them. Look early in the complaints threads - not this one here, but the earlier ones that Jeff was responding to. Sure, there's plenty of shitty comments later in those threads, but the substantial conversation is by people who are huge fans of Jeff's pre-Avadon work. I.e. by folks who have been 'supporting the indie' for years, many of whom have bought every game Vogel has made.

Praising the Geneforge games just reinforces the point that some of us are making - i.e. that the Geneforge games were great, and it's a real pity that he's replaced that approach (not the setting, but the approach) for the Biowarean style that others can do better due to superior resources and diversification of expertise.

 

[Kraszu]

*facepalm* Why is immersion bashed around here? It's because of the superficial definition of it you get from the likes of Bethesda fanboys. Their definition of immersion--or how we write it when making fun of them, IMMERSHUN!!-- is "in my world, I can pretend to be a vegetarian and have to take a shit every three hours". Vastly different from my definition.

Then first define it if you want to use different definition then the commonly known one, fair enough?

immersion -> Wow, I've been playing for 3 hours already? Guess I should take a brea - hey, what's this?

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

 

[DakaSha]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

 

[Kraszu]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

How it isn't the case? You can get immersed by any game by this definition, there is no required aspect of the game to feat to this definition.

Don't complain about be requiring good graphics to be immersed because you need good gameplay to be immersed.

 

[Michael Ellis]

In my early 40s and a gamer since PONG. Been through the phases of "Am I outgrowing gaming?" and "If only games were like the good old days" etc.
I bought the Geneforge series collection CD when it came out and enjoyed playing them back to back.
We all know there are a lot of immature punks and pirates on this site. They post a lot and drown out others as well as possibly an overall decline of adult discourse taking place here over time. Decline threads date back to 2004.
Cut Jeff some slack and support the indie.

You won't find much disagreement about the quality of the Geneforge series - some disagreement perhaps, but most folk here either like them or ignore them. Look early in the complaints threads - not this one here, but the earlier ones that Jeff was responding to. Sure, there's plenty of shitty comments later in those threads, but the substantial conversation is by people who are huge fans of Jeff's pre-Avadon work. I.e. by folks who have been 'supporting the indie' for years, many of whom have bought every game Vogel has made.

Praising the Geneforge games just reinforces the point that some of us are making - i.e. that the Geneforge games were great, and it's a real pity that he's replaced that approach (not the setting, but the approach) for the Biowarean style that others can do better due to superior resources and diversification of expertise.

Understood.
I have not played Avadon yet but will eventually.
If it turns out to be worthless I may well become one of his loudest critics.

 

[DakaSha]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

How it isn't the case? You can get immersed by any game by this definition, there is no required aspect of the game to feat to this definition.

Don't complain about be requiring good graphics to be immersed because you need good gameplay to be immersed.

wtf

 

[Kraszu]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

How it isn't the case? You can get immersed by any game by this definition, there is no required aspect of the game to feat to this definition.

Don't complain about be requiring good graphics to be immersed because you need good gameplay to be immersed.

wtf

That is what your communication skills are limited to?

 

[DakaSha]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

How it isn't the case? You can get immersed by any game by this definition, there is no required aspect of the game to feat to this definition.

Don't complain about be requiring good graphics to be immersed because you need good gameplay to be immersed.

wtf

That is what your communication skills are limited to?

Pretentious nonsensical faggot.
Better?

Spoiler

Sorry but I really didn't understand wtf you were talking about. Fun is a pretty good way to describe a good game in my book. And I don't see where graphics ever came into the discussion. CK explained what immersion is pretty well

 

[Kraszu]

Pretentious nonsensical faggot.
Better?/quote]

No, not really.

 

[DakaSha]

Pretentious nonsensical faggot.
Better?/quote]

No, not really.

 

[Data4]

*facepalm* Why is immersion bashed around here? It's because of the superficial definition of it you get from the likes of Bethesda fanboys. Their definition of immersion--or how we write it when making fun of them, IMMERSHUN!!-- is "in my world, I can pretend to be a vegetarian and have to take a shit every three hours". Vastly different from my definition.

Then first define it if you want to use different definition then the commonly known one, fair enough?

immersion -> Wow, I've been playing for 3 hours already? Guess I should take a brea - hey, what's this?

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

No, actually Clockwork Knight boiled it down nice and elegantly. It's when you lose yourself playing. You're so focused on what's going to happen next that your perception of time is lost. It's when a game seriously grabs you by the balls until you pass out at the keyboard. It's when your mode of thinking changes from what key to press next to what in-game action you're going to do to solve an in-game problem, because at that moment, your mouse, keyboard-- hell, your entire computer ceases to exist. It's just you in the game.

If you're asking for specific examples in specific games, I think you're just being an obstinate douche. While the definition of immersion may be subjective, there's a certain j'ne sais quoi that most people understand. At least those who aren't trying to be argumentative contrarians.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Let him in!

Checked the proxy block history and he wasn't blocked. Maybe he just couldn't find the link:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/profile.php?mode=register

He probably needs a quest compas.

Also why haven't you responded to my PMs?

 

[Forest Dweller]

Oh, and I decided to take the battle to the RPGWatch forums. Anyone wants to join me go ahead.

 

[Reptilian Shapeshifter]

No, actually Clockwork Knight boiled it down nice and elegantly. It's when you lose yourself playing. You're so focused on what's going to happen next that your perception of time is lost. It's when a game seriously grabs you by the balls until you pass out at the keyboard. It's when your mode of thinking changes from what key to press next to what in-game action you're going to do to solve an in-game problem, because at that moment, your mouse, keyboard-- hell, your entire computer ceases to exist. It's just you in the game.

Hmm, I've experienced that a few times in the past, and my overall feeling is that it's a rather unhealthy state of consciousness. Your subconscious mind is wide open to all sorts of deep programming at that point.

 

[DakaSha]

then wear a tinfoil hat

 

[Kraszu]

No, actually Clockwork Knight boiled it down nice and elegantly. It's when you lose yourself playing. You're so focused on what's going to happen next that your perception of time is lost. It's when a game seriously grabs you by the balls until you pass out at the keyboard. It's when your mode of thinking changes from what key to press next to what in-game action you're going to do to solve an in-game problem, because at that moment, your mouse, keyboard-- hell, your entire computer ceases to exist. It's just you in the game.

Then I guess that I am immersed all of the time by anything that even vaguely interest me because I don't have such problems.

If you're asking for specific examples in specific games, I think you're just being an obstinate douche. While the definition of immersion may be subjective, there's a certain j'ne sais quoi that most people understand. At least those who aren't trying to be argumentative contrarians.

Yet a spreadsheet, can be immersive, and good graphics can be required for somebody else to get immersed.

 

[Data4]

No, actually Clockwork Knight boiled it down nice and elegantly. It's when you lose yourself playing. You're so focused on what's going to happen next that your perception of time is lost. It's when a game seriously grabs you by the balls until you pass out at the keyboard. It's when your mode of thinking changes from what key to press next to what in-game action you're going to do to solve an in-game problem, because at that moment, your mouse, keyboard-- hell, your entire computer ceases to exist. It's just you in the game.

Then I guess that I am immersed all of the time by anything that even vaguely interest me because I don't have such problems.

If you're asking for specific examples in specific games, I think you're just being an obstinate douche. While the definition of immersion may be subjective, there's a certain j'ne sais quoi that most people understand. At least those who aren't trying to be argumentative contrarians.

Yet a spreadsheet, can be immersive, and good graphics can be required for somebody else to get immersed.

Ok. Your point being?

 

[DakaSha]

I think you already nailed it with:

If you're asking for specific examples in specific games, I think you're just being an obstinate douche. While the definition of immersion may be subjective, there's a certain j'ne sais quoi that most people understand. At least those who aren't trying to be argumentative contrarians

 

[Destroid]

Kraszu, you should start a thread in general gaming detailing what you believe immersion to be, this thread is for discussing Mr. Jeff Vogel.