Game News Jeff Vogel Responding To Critics

[coldcrow]

You are wrong, there is no fear. There is just the unfettered urge to tap into the broadest possible audience for a given game; and that is only achieved by "streamlining" everything until the unproduct is an indistinguishable ball of mediocrity.

 

[Topher]

You are wrong, there is no fear. There is just the unfettered urge to tap into the broadest possible audience for a given game; and that is only achieved by "streamlining" everything until the unproduct is an indistinguishable ball of mediocrity.

I like the way you said it better.

 

[Mortmal]

You are wrong, there is no fear. There is just the unfettered urge to tap into the broadest possible audience for a given game; and that is only achieved by "streamlining" everything until the unproduct is an indistinguishable ball of mediocrity.

I like the way you said it better.

Indeed, he says it better , you wont see vogel quoting that in his blog thats for sure.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

One more thing about streamlining - it's worth remembering that it makes work easier for developers. They may use propaganda about "complexity" scaring away gamers while in reality they just want to make the same money for less work as they see that the features that they take away aren't important for the lowest common denominator.

 

[CorpseZeb]

One more thing about streamlining - it's worth remembering that it makes work easier for developers. They may use propaganda about "complexity" scaring away gamers while in reality they just want to make the same money for less work as they see that the features that they take away aren't important for the lowest common denominator.

… but at the end of day, less work means less developers need to contract, thus unemployed mode on. They shit in their nest that way...

 

[Cuntfish]

The gritty, hardcore elements in Avadon are later in the game. I put them there to not scare off more casual gamers. Teh casualz need to be eased into that sort of thing.

So instead of, say, 30 hours of gritty hardcore gaming, we get maybe 5 hours?

We have to slog through 25 hours of tutorial mode to get to the meat?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

One more thing about streamlining - it's worth remembering that it makes work easier for developers. They may use propaganda about "complexity" scaring away gamers while in reality they just want to make the same money for less work as they see that the features that they take away aren't important for the lowest common denominator.

… but at the end of day, less work means less developers need to contract, thus unemployed mode on. They shit in their nest that way...

I mean developers like Vogel. In case of bigger companies it's the owners, marketing guys, etc.

 

[CorpseZeb]

I mean developers like Vogel. In case of bigger companies it's the owners, marketing guys, etc.

I see. Not much to argue here then. But...


But... still, originality sells I think. If many games looks the same, why buy this game not other one? Why buy from one developers when others sell similar, streamlined, easy to programing stuff? Originality sells. Or it should.

 

[SuicideBunny]

should? yes.
does? no.

 

[zeitgeist]

… but at the end of day, less work means less developers need to contract, thus unemployed mode on. They shit in their nest that way...

Not necessarily. If you're talking about AAA companies, the budgets are rising either way. It could very well just mean getting more money for less personal engagement, and/or being able to hire more superfluous people. And for indie developers, less work for more money is kind of an obvious goal.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

CK definition could feat to Civilization, and to Oblivion so how is it useful when talking about games?

It's not really my definition - it's what people mean when they say they are immersed in a book. They are so interested in the story unfolding before them that they sort of "block" the world around them. They finish a chapter, realize they've been reading this book for a while, but turn the page anyway because they are really interested in what will happen next.

Way I see it, the definition also fits for games, movies, or any other form of entertainment - immersion is when the entertainment is...entertaining you.

 

[sea]

But... still, originality sells I think. If many games looks the same, why buy this game not other one? Why buy from one developers when others sell similar, streamlined, easy to programing stuff? Originality sells. Or it should.

I would say originality sells... when it's put within a familiar context. BioShock sold copies, because while it offered a unique setting, it featured easy-to-understand gameplay, a simple and rather nonsensical story, and a great aesthetic. What most people mean when they say they want something different is really "I want something that offers me novelty, but doesn't challenge me or require me to step outside my comfort zone."

Honestly, I don't see many RPG fans here behaving any differently from that either. Lots of us want "complex" mechanics, reactive game worlds and stories, etc., but largely within a framework we've already defined - what we really want are superficial differences, like new settings, aesthetics, etc. There's nothing wrong with that if the games end up being great, of course, just worth noting that "true" originality is something that the vast majority of gamers will find off-putting. Where issues arise is when gamers' expectations become excessively low, so much so that anything beyond the absolute most bare-bones is hailed as "innovative" and "genre-defying". Starting to sound familiar?

 

[CorpseZeb]

Hm. Who are “most people” and why they always excuses to something? The Gaussian curve...? C'mon.

I rather put this differently, I was thinking more about very authors/developers sharing their own visions through games, their own way to play, their own stories more than “our/my” players visions and expectations. More about “what game creators have to say to me” than “what I want to do here”. To self-amusement Oblivion should be sufficient. To dialogue I need a partner.

When I sat to read Proust I don't except “comfort”, “easy understanding”, on contrary, I enjoyed challenge. Complex mechanics, rules, C&C are just grammatical form, not a substance – they don't denote, they are used to denotation. So originality is must, as must are original words and thoughts in any sensible dialogue between human beings.

In other words, why repeat while we go creatively forward? Why game developers have so little to say?They don't care? They just don't have too much to say? Because if they only want to entertainment me, well don't bother, entertainment's like monologue, one side talking, second sits in silence.

 

[Orgasm]

Combat, writting and gfx are genuine shit in Avernum 1-3 and Geneforge 1.
Where in Gods name do his buyers come from?

 

[Mangoose]

When did they come out? I'm curious.

 

[SuicideBunny]

When did they come out? I'm curious.

ten years ago.

 

[Volrath]

Vogel has always been a complete and utter dumbfuck but at least his games were somewhat enjoyable to make up for that fact. Now that he's effectively become bioware indie there's no point in wasting time on him anymore.

 

[Jasede]

 

[sgc_meltdown]

clearly the gaming industry is not scaling to his level

 

[ElectricOtter]

Prophetic words, indeed. Truly the work of a master dicksmith

 

[RK47]

I spoke to a developer by email a few weeks back, who was enquiring about my old game and the subject of the Codex came up and he was shocked and repulsed by the comments he read here.

Gosh, developers sure are tender plants.

No. It's not that simple. I'm quite disappointed with some major developers' reactions to valid complaints and criticism. It seems like, no matter how honest it is,...they seem to tie themselves firmly into the 'victim's cross' and label such criticisms as 'unjustified.' Yet, instead of rebutting with evidence, they would probably shoot back counter-arguments that usually means 'it's not made for you', or 'perhaps you didn't really like it from the start.'

And that sort of response made me realize I shouldn't be their customer since we're so incompatible with each other which is sort of a waste, I feel. I wanted to like their products, but my feedbacks seem to offend them. It's better if I just stay quiet in that case.

 

[Gord]

No. It's not that simple. I'm quite disappointed with some major developers' reactions to valid complaints and criticism. It seems like, no matter how honest it is,...they seem to tie themselves firmly into the 'victim's cross' and label such criticisms as 'unjustified.' Yet, instead of rebutting with evidence, they would probably shoot back counter-arguments that usually means 'it's not made for you', or 'perhaps you didn't really like it from the start.'

And that sort of response made me realize I shouldn't be their customer since we're so incompatible with each other which is sort of a waste, I feel. I wanted to like their products, but my feedbacks seem to offend them. It's better if I just stay quiet in that case.

Being defensive of one's own products, especially if a lot of work has been put into them is a absolutely normal reaction.
I doubt most Codexers would react much differently (it is usually different if criticism was explicitly asked for). Many people will nevertheless start to consider parts of the criticism after a while, when the initial anger has subsided.

Of course it may help to present said criticism in a constructive and respectful way, something the Codex unfortunately is not very good at.

Still, there are also people who will never, under any condition consider such criticism.
Also, how can we expect a developer/author to react? Which customers is he going to consider? The majority? A vocal minority? Or even single persons? First one makes sense, second may probably happen, last option would be plain stupid, but somehow the one option everyone wants to happen (for himself of course).

 

[RK47]

I think I understand. I really don't know how Codex was back at the start, but perhaps some of the criticism on this site came out a bit too hard, but honest, I thought I was being moderate in my feedback, but all I got from the response was 'perhaps it was not to your liking,' and 'this game might not be for you.'

Oh well, I'll just moderate my comments a bit.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You get these dismissive responses because they are trying to end the argument asap - the alternative is engaging in vault dwellian discussions spanning 20 pages, because there rarely is "evidence" strong enough to satisfy the other guy.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Also, how can we expect a developer/author to react? Which customers is he going to consider? The majority? A vocal minority? Or even single persons? First one makes sense, second may probably happen, last option would be plain stupid, but somehow the one option everyone wants to happen (for himself of course).

How about developer himself? Don't you think, that developing for himself makes him much more immune to critics? He, The Developer, can firmly stand on ground very own believes what's wrong, what's good. On contrary, in case he's making „majority happy”, he can't stand feeling of ungratefulnesses – after doing so much for Them, Them!

... master and slave ...