Game News Jeff Vogel Responding To Critics

[DakaSha]

And whaT A FAGET HE IS
owned by accidental caps

 

[Data4]

Kraszu, you should start a thread in general gaming detailing what you believe immersion to be, this thread is for discussing Mr. Jeff Vogel.

He's not discussing immersion. He's creating a strawman and trying to prove it wrong. It's amusing.

 

[Kraszu]

I think you already nailed it with:

If you're asking for specific examples in specific games, I think you're just being an obstinate douche. While the definition of immersion may be subjective, there's a certain j'ne sais quoi that most people understand. At least those who aren't trying to be argumentative contrarians

Oh really?

"immersion -> Wow, I've been playing for 3 hours already? Guess I should take a brea - hey, what's this?


immershun -> It's like I'm really a space marine"

 

[Kraszu]

Kraszu, you should start a thread in general gaming detailing what you believe immersion to be, this thread is for discussing Mr. Jeff Vogel.

He's not discussing immersion. He's creating a strawman and trying to prove it wrong. It's amusing.

That straw man being the definition of immersion that you like.

 

[Data4]

Kraszu, you should start a thread in general gaming detailing what you believe immersion to be, this thread is for discussing Mr. Jeff Vogel.

He's not discussing immersion. He's creating a strawman and trying to prove it wrong. It's amusing.

That straw man being the definition of immersion that you like.

Why should it matter to you? I said from the very beginning that a sense of immersion is subjective. The rest of this has just been silly and detracts from the original intent of the thread, and I feel dumb just for taking your bait.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

No, actually Clockwork Knight boiled it down nice and elegantly. It's when you lose yourself playing. You're so focused on what's going to happen next that your perception of time is lost. It's when a game seriously grabs you by the balls until you pass out at the keyboard. It's when your mode of thinking changes from what key to press next to what in-game action you're going to do to solve an in-game problem, because at that moment, your mouse, keyboard-- hell, your entire computer ceases to exist. It's just you in the game.

It sounds extremely unhealthy.

In my early 40s and a gamer since PONG. Been through the phases of "Am I outgrowing gaming?" and "If only games were like the good old days" etc.
I bought the Geneforge series collection CD when it came out and enjoyed playing them back to back.
We all know there are a lot of immature punks and pirates on this site. They post a lot and drown out others as well as possibly an overall decline of adult discourse taking place here over time. Decline threads date back to 2004.
Cut Jeff some slack and support the indie.

Support what? Support abandoning making games like Exile and Geneforge series and making Bioware-style games?

Perhaps VD should approach him with a design discussion proposition? Now that Avadon's out and some drama entailed the two of them coud have an interesting exchange about some of the mechanics and their understanding of the gaming market (I'm especially curious about that one since Jeff's posts about the market seem really... off?). That could be actually, you know, constructive - unlike alienating every non-aspie on the internet and yelling about decline.

What would be the point of such a discussion, though?
Jeff Vogel seems to have some very strong ideas about how to design his games. I doubt discussing with VD would change anything.

 

[Radisshu]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

How it isn't the case? You can get immersed by any game by this definition, there is no required aspect of the game to feat to this definition.

Don't complain about be requiring good graphics to be immersed because you need good gameplay to be immersed.

wtf

That is what your communication skills are limited to?

Pretentious nonsensical faggot.
Better?

Spoiler

Sorry but I really didn't understand wtf you were talking about. Fun is a pretty good way to describe a good game in my book. And I don't see where graphics ever came into the discussion. CK explained what immersion is pretty well

So you're just a huge fucking idiot hiding behind codex memes, I take it?

I agree with Krazsu, using "immersion" (or "fun") to describe an RPG is much too vague, you could just replace the word with "good". Immersion means jack squat since, obviously, different people are immersed by different things (some people apparently need soil erosion to feel that the gameworld has some subtance, others need a coherent setting).

 

[Trash]

Guys. Jeff offered to listen and take part in a CIVIL discussion. C-I-V-I-L. As in, not calling him a whining hands-over-the-head-lalala something. And whoever that fucking moron with the witty "needing a tutorial to register" comment should cut his own balls off. For science.

He is not a codexer and thus has no obligation to adhere to Codexian rules of conduct. He will do what every sane person does when assaulted by some internet toughguys - tell you to go fuck yourself and stop listening.

Perhaps VD should approach him with a design discussion proposition? Now that Avadon's out and some drama entailed the two of them coud have an interesting exchange about some of the mechanics and their understanding of the gaming market (I'm especially curious about that one since Jeff's posts about the market seem really... off?). That could be actually, you know, constructive - unlike alienating every non-aspie on the internet and yelling about decline.

One of the few voices of sanity left. Right as usual.

 

[DakaSha]

This definition is to vague to be useful. That would be like using the word fun to argue that the game good.

:/

How it isn't the case? You can get immersed by any game by this definition, there is no required aspect of the game to feat to this definition.

Don't complain about be requiring good graphics to be immersed because you need good gameplay to be immersed.

wtf

That is what your communication skills are limited to?

Pretentious nonsensical faggot.
Better?

Spoiler

Sorry but I really didn't understand wtf you were talking about. Fun is a pretty good way to describe a good game in my book. And I don't see where graphics ever came into the discussion. CK explained what immersion is pretty well

So you're just a huge fucking idiot hiding behind codex memes, I take it?

I agree with Krazsu, using "immersion" (or "fun") to describe an RPG is much too vague, you could just replace the word with "good". Immersion means jack squat since, obviously, different people are immersed by different things (some people apparently need soil erosion to feel that the gameworld has some subtance, others need a coherent setting).

No I was hiding behind the spoiler tag that pretty much explained my simple responses.

 

[Kraszu]

DakaSha the word fun is not enough to describe the game because different people find different things to be fun. It can be useful if you tell it to somebody with similar taste but that is it. As for gfx Data4 was talking about gfx, and how bad one kills the immersion for him.

CK definition could feat to Civilization, and to Oblivion so how is it useful when talking about games?

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Well, I am pleased that Mr.Vogel has decided to reflect on how silly his initial blog was, and create an update. I also agree that VD or somebody else of quality should interview him and find out what his exact plans for the future are, and how he hopes to accomplish them, etc and so on.

For my part, I may purchase the full version of Avadon, keeping in mind the "1 year money back guarantee" and see if Vogel speaks the truth. Still thinking about it.

 

[villain of the story]

I sense a growing trend of Uncle-Tomism in this thread.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

VD or somebody else of quality should interview him and find out what his exact plans for the future are, and how he hopes to accomplish them, etc and so on.

Somebody should interview him and ask him who the hell he is because I have no fucking idea.

 

[DakaSha]

DakaSha the word fun is not enough to describe the game because different people find different things to be fun. It can be useful if you tell it to somebody with similar taste but that is it. As for gfx Data4 was talking about gfx, and how bad one kills the immersion for him.

CK definition could feat to Civilization, and to Oblivion so how is it useful when talking about games?

Data already explained this. I understand what you are saying now but just don't find it relevant. And seriously this thread is about vogel being butthurt (at least it is for me ) so I dont see the point in getting into a drawn out argument about it

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I don't know why this guy bothers reading and responding to the codex if he thinks the opinions here are as unsubstantial and indicative of a very vocal minority. It's like posting in GD if you don't agree with the inevitability of a white power planet

 

[fizzelopeguss]

The real question here is why is dhruin such a faggot?

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I don't know why this guy bothers reading and responding to the codex if he thinks the opinions here are as unsubstantial and indicative of a very vocal minority. It's like posting in GD if you don't agree with the inevitability of a white power planet

If he really thought that, he wouldn't have gone off the deep end to begin with.

 

[Davaris]

I don't know why this guy bothers reading and responding to the codex if he thinks the opinions here are as unsubstantial and indicative of a very vocal minority. It's like posting in GD if you don't agree with the inevitability of a white power planet

If he really thought that, he wouldn't have gone off the deep end to begin with.

I don't know if you can make that assumption. I spoke to a developer by email a few weeks back, who was enquiring about my old game and the subject of the Codex came up and he was shocked and repulsed by the comments he read here. I've been around the Codex so long, I don't notice them, so I assume I didn't give him the outraged replies he expected. But that is another story.



As for sending Vault Dweller to speak to Jeff, I don't see any point to that. Vogel has been blogging about the Bioware way quite a bit and he is successful in this business, so I think it is no accident he chose this path. Unless VD can show Jeff how he can earn more money making hard core games, I think he'd be wasting his time, as Jeff has a family to support.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I spoke to a developer by email a few weeks back, who was enquiring about my old game and the subject of the Codex came up and he was shocked and repulsed by the comments he read here.

Gosh, developers sure are tender plants.

 

[made]

Why support a man who goes on and on about how much he hates what he does (and I don't blame him; rehashing the same game year after year must get frustrating), and how he would love to make games like Bioware's if only he had the means?
Apparently, the only way he'll keep making the kind of games you want to play is if he stays poor, so buying his games is actually counterproductive if you ever want to see a Geneforge 39.

 

[circ]

Making a BioWare game doesn't require that much resources. Throw in a romance here, throw in SHIT FUCK a few times, make half your followers cocksockets.

 

[Davaris]

Gosh, developers sure are tender plants.

Could be why they don't come here?

IMO if you can't tolerate speech that is free, then don't go to the Codex.

Why support a man who goes on and on about how much he hates what he does (and I don't blame him; rehashing the same game year after year must get frustrating), and how he would love to make games like Bioware's if only he had the means?
Apparently, the only way he'll keep making the kind of games you want to play is if he stays poor, so buying his games is actually counterproductive if you ever want to see a Geneforge 39.

I'm not sure what he means by "means". Less C&C means less scripting and fewer bugs.

 

[Morkar Left]

Vogels selective reading, nitpicking and quoting out of context was very strange. He was like a codex troll, just with good manners. That aside I can't blame him for going the casual route. Avadon is planned as a Ipad game and optimized with that in mind I assume. If I had to run a business like Vogel I would try to cash in in the ipad market, too. Especially when I'm already familiar with macs.

Avadon wasn't interestring for me right from the start after I knew the changes. I recognize as a "hardcore-player" (lol), that he does the same every other developer does; cutting features for more "accessibility".
There is a real fear in the industry that complex gamemechanics are too much to handle or to tiresome to learn for a gamer nowadays. I disagree here. It's just a matter of how you do it right. Space Rangers 2 is a great example for this.

Vogel did make good games but from Exile to Avernum to Avadon I see only cutting features and "streamlining" to the point where I don't bother with his games. I started with Avernum 6 (ok, some improvements in combat here) but prefer the Exile design (but only played the demo to Exile 2).

If he is successful with his business direction I'm fine with. It's only that I like other types of rpgs than he (and all other developers) makes nowadays and I'm not a potential customer anymore.

 

[Topher]

There is a real fear in the industry that complex gamemechanics are too much to handle or to tiresome to learn for a gamer nowadays. I disagree here. It's just a matter of how you do it right. Space Rangers 2 is a great example for this.

I don't think that's quite true at least not the "too much to handle aspect". I agree that the industry recognizances that there are just more people out there who won't/can't bother to learn complex mechanics and that there are less people who will take the time to learn them. Simple mechanics=more customers=more money, I've never felt that (most) developers really think that complex mechanics are actually too complex but god forbid sometimes I wonder.

Ultimately no matter how right or how well you do something some people will still be to lazy or unwilling and developers want those sales. It can only end in tears... again.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Except that his games never had complex mechanics. I think IE games were practically the only cRPGs that I have played where the player had to learn complex mechanics.

 

[CorpseZeb]

There is a real fear in the industry that complex gamemechanics are too much to handle or to tiresome to learn for a gamer nowadays. I disagree here. It's just a matter of how you do it right. Space Rangers 2 is a great example for this.

Its more deep trend to treat games as just fun and excitement, nothing more. After day of hard work and satisfying social interaction with correctly dressed human beings, how many obstacles you can bear stinging on the couch with joypad in one hand, and … in second hand? Not so much.

All hope lies in indie world, not AAA titles (erm... I mean... AAA tits).