Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[SymbolicFrank]

I would add the unique things that would violate the rules.

If the engine cannot cope with that, it's shit and should be redesigned.

Really, we might all be a bit asperger, but emotions ALWAYS beat efficiency when you want to make money.

 

[ksaun]

Well, he got a golden chance now, and will have to back his words. How many developers wouldn't kill for the chance to be lead designer at a big independent studio, financed via Kickstarter, with no publisher to meddle and with greenlight to create their own system?

Obsidian always escaped harsh criticism via excuses... short development time, reused engine, staff changes, publisher demands, no support for QA, etc... There's no one to blame now, time to put a fucking great game where his mouth is.

EDIT: Who am I kidding, Sawyer already has an excuse ready. This isn't his "dream game", it's aimed at IE fans. That's why he changed so many things and keeps saying how D&D sucks.

I haven't had the time to delve into the details about the various game design criticisms that are being discussed. So I can't express an opinion on those topics. But I did want to briefly speak to the sentiment expressed in this last point (and in some other recent posts).

I haven't known Josh to be one to dodge accountability or deflect blame. I've known him to own his mistakes and to learn from them. I would be surprised to see him make excuses, either publicly or to himself. (If it does appear that some statement he makes sounds like an excuse, consider there may be other perspectives to what he was actually saying and that he might have meant it in that context, not as an excuse.)

 

[HiddenX]

Josh on Twitter

 

[Infinitron]

Josh on Twitter

Oh hey, I didn't notice his argument with that Anton dude until now. Roguey

 

[felipepepe]

I haven't known Josh to be one to dodge accountability or deflect blame. I've known him to own his mistakes and to learn from them. I would be surprised to see him make excuses, either publicly or to himself. (If it does appear that some statement he makes sounds like an excuse, consider there may be other perspectives to what he was actually saying and that he might have meant it in that context, not as an excuse.)

I don't doubt you, but we know different "Sawyers". You know the person, I know the games and quotes that I come across. I was referring specifically to this quote from Gamebanshee:

Some of the most fun in RPG's I've had lately have been from Spiderweb Software. They scratch that old-school itch for me, and they do it while constrained by an outdated, ugly graphic engine, because they are extremely tightly designed. They feel a lot like IE games, even though they're completely turn-based. And their mechanics don't look a damn thing like DnD and are better for it.

That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game. It's great that you view the experiences as more abstract than the nuts and bolts, but no, people clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different. And I know from experience that sort of attitude can poison a player's entire reception of the game.

I have had the pleasure to work on a project where I just got to do whatever I wanted and that was pretty cool. I don't know how many people would have played that weird-ass game, but the publisher wasn't really concerned, so I went wild. Very few projects are like that. This project is not like that and I feel like we have never pitched it as though it were.

I think this is a cop out. As HiddenX quoted above, he's against core aspects of D&D - the game is very far from being D&D already - so saying "I'm doing what the fans want, not what I want" is silly. Just think of how many aspects of IE games were removed already: the entire D&D ruleset, multi-classing, utility spells (knock, invisibility), pre-buffing, stealing from shops, hard counters, equipment requirements, etc...

It comes out as disingenuous to change things so much and then say you're simply doing an IE-like game, not a "significantly mechanically different game". PoE looks similar, but IS very different mechanically, I think that's pretty clear to anyone who played it.

 

[Ninjerk]

I haven't known Josh to be one to dodge accountability or deflect blame. I've known him to own his mistakes and to learn from them. I would be surprised to see him make excuses, either publicly or to himself. (If it does appear that some statement he makes sounds like an excuse, consider there may be other perspectives to what he was actually saying and that he might have meant it in that context, not as an excuse.)

I don't doubt you, but we know different "Sawyers". You know the person, I know the games and quotes that I come across. I was referring specifically to this quote from Gamebanshee:

Some of the most fun in RPG's I've had lately have been from Spiderweb Software. They scratch that old-school itch for me, and they do it while constrained by an outdated, ugly graphic engine, because they are extremely tightly designed. They feel a lot like IE games, even though they're completely turn-based. And their mechanics don't look a damn thing like DnD and are better for it.

That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game. It's great that you view the experiences as more abstract than the nuts and bolts, but no, people clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different. And I know from experience that sort of attitude can poison a player's entire reception of the game.

I have had the pleasure to work on a project where I just got to do whatever I wanted and that was pretty cool. I don't know how many people would have played that weird-ass game, but the publisher wasn't really concerned, so I went wild. Very few projects are like that. This project is not like that and I feel like we have never pitched it as though it were.

I think this is a cop out. As HiddenX quoted above, he's against core aspects of D&D - the game is very far from being D&D already - so saying "I'm doing what the fans want, not what I want" is silly. Just think of how many aspects of IE games were removed already: the entire D&D ruleset, multi-classing, utility spells (knock, invisibility), pre-buffing, stealing from shops, hard counters, equipment requirements, etc...

It comes out as disingenuous to change things so much and then say you're simply doing an IE-like game, not a "significantly mechanically different game". PoE looks similar, but IS very different mechanically, I think that's pretty clear to anyone who played it.

Isn't it more, "I'm doing what the fans don't know they want... etc"

 

[Infinitron]

I think Sawyer doesn't believe the fans want the D&D experience. He thinks they want the Infinity Engine experience, which can be deconstructed to some superficial D&D-like elements (classes, races, six stats, Vancian-like mechanics, etc) but doesn't have to be D&D.

 

[tuluse]

Hell, the IE games didn't strictly translate D&D themselves. Everyone's favorite, PST, look the most liberties of all.

 

[felipepepe]

I think Sawyer doesn't believe the fans want the D&D experience. He thinks they want the Infinity Engine experience, which can be deconstructed to some superficial D&D-like elements (classes, races, six stats, Vancian-like mechanics, etc) but doesn't have to be D&D.

"What I think people liked about IE-games" is completetly subjective. BioWare has been doing their own brand of "what we think people liked about BG" for years, focusing on your companions, for example.

 

[Cosmo]

I think this is a cop out.

He thinks they want the Infinity Engine experience, which can be deconstructed to some superficial D&D-like elements (classes, races, six stats, Vancian-like mechanics, etc) but doesn't have to be D&D.

Exactly, what's more they can't have D&D, so they may as well come up with something better.
And of course this is would be a cop out, if the point of reference for the project was your own expectations. But it's not, is it ? Your love of trash options seems a lot more subjective than Sawyer's statements Felipepe...

Ps : As for Bioware, it's simply selling out to fan pandering (and it seems to keep Bioware's fans happy), Sawyer on the other hand strives to obey certain design principles (which you don't agree with) but has no fear causing butthurt while doing it.

 

[Athelas]

I think it might be tiime to rename the PoE thread to 'The People vs. Joshua Eric Sawyer'.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

And of course this is would be a cop out, if the point of reference for the project was your own expectations. But it's not, is it ? And your love of trash options seems a lot more subjective...

I think the "cop out" referred to his interview seeming to get his excuses in early. As you say, he couldn't use D&D so made something he thinks is better. But then he implies it isn't what he really wants to make because of those damn D&D/IE fans who "clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different". So if the game is hailed as a masterpiece it's because of JES, if it fails it's because he was constrained by the expectations of D&D/IE fans.

 

[tuluse]

I think the "cop out" referred to his interview seeming to get his excuses in early. As you say, he couldn't use D&D so made something he thinks is better. But then he implies it isn't what he really wants to make because of those damn D&D/IE fans who "clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different". So if the game is hailed as a masterpiece it's because of JES, if it fails it's because he was constrained by the expectations of D&D/IE fans.

I don't think that's his point of view.

If he fails to make something that appeals to the majority of IE fans (not all, but a majority), he's failed because that's his job.

 

[Infinitron]

if it fails it's because he was constrained by the expectations of D&D/IE fans.

People who will say that: Roguey

People who won't: Josh Sawyer

 

[Cosmo]

I think the "cop out" referred to his interview seeming to get his excuses in early. As you say, he couldn't use D&D so made something he thinks is better. But then he implies it isn't what he really wants to make because of those damn D&D/IE fans who "clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different". So if the game is hailed as a masterpiece it's because of JES, if it fails it's because he was constrained by the expectations of D&D/IE fans.

Bending the statement that way needs a good deal of interpretation, while the simplest (and most probable) solution is that he simply states a fact : he's a professional working in limits that he didn't choose, and he's ready to sit on some of his reservations because that's WHAT HE'S PAID FOR.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

if it fails it's because he was constrained by the expectations of D&D/IE fans.

People who will say that: Roguey

People who won't: Josh Sawyer

OK, I concede that point. Let's hope it delivers a similar experience to the IE games once a few more months have been put into it, so we don't have to find out.

 

[felipepepe]

he's a professional working in limits that he didn't choose, and he's ready to sit on some of his reservations, because that's WHAT HE'S PAID FOR.

Obsidian were the ones who decided to kickstart a "IE-like game", they choose this limit. Larian did very well kickstarting their own thing, even with controversial things like co-op and "WoW-artstyle".

If you ask for money to make a IE-like game, and then start changing things that you personally disagree, it shouldn't be surprising that people that actually enjoyed the things you changed get disappointed. You can't handwave that away.

Your love of trash options seems a lot more subjective than Sawyer's statements Felipepe...

I'm not designing an RPG for 80k backers on promises of a IE-like game. If I were, you can bet I would very carefully look into what all sorts of people enjoyed about IE games.

And I would never say this:

Maybe the grognards like it, but for everyone else it’s kind of frustrating and so we try to get away from that as much as possible.

There are people that’ll say to me ‘oh man, it’s fun to do that’, but no. No, it’s not.

Because you can bet that a lot of the money funding this game came from those repulsive grognards. The casual guys are quite happy with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

 

[mastroego]

Hell, the IE games didn't strictly translate D&D themselves. Everyone's favorite, PST, look the most liberties of all.

This is fuel for our argument, actually.
PST was great because it went along with every possible craziness. Characters, environment, items, spells, events, all were what they were thanks to the fact that imagination was unleashed to capture the dreams and the hearts of the players.
You can bet that "balance" (and everything else that goes with that mindset) was never an actual concern for PST's development team.

 

[tuluse]

Hell, the IE games didn't strictly translate D&D themselves. Everyone's favorite, PST, look the most liberties of all.

This is fuel to our argument, actually.
PST was great because it went along with every possible craziness. Characters, environment, items, spells, events, all were what they were thanks to the fact that imagination was completely unleashed to capture the dreams and the hearts of the players.
You can bet that "balance" was never very high a concern for PST's development team.

And it had the shittiest combat of all IE games.

Good fuel.

 

[Infinitron]

I think Sawyer doesn't believe the fans want the D&D experience. He thinks they want the Infinity Engine experience, which can be deconstructed to some superficial D&D-like elements (classes, races, six stats, Vancian-like mechanics, etc) but doesn't have to be D&D.

"What I think people liked about IE-games" is completetly subjective. BioWare has been doing their own brand of "what we think people liked about BG" for years, focusing on your companions, for example.

I don't disagree.

We can't pretend that Josh's dislike of BG2 (and frankly, of typical fantasy RPG settings in general - notice his description of himself on Twitter, "elf games and fallout") isn't a relevant factor in the nature of this game. In the end, every game, especially if designed by a strong auteur-like figure, is a reflection of the subjective values of its creator.

So you're getting IE with a Josh Sawyer twist. I feel bad for the people like mastreogo here who specifically wanted a BG2 spiritual successor, but it's probably wiser to keep an open mind about things.

 

[Tigranes]

The Black Hound was going to be IE with a Sawyer twist. POE too was always going to be IE with a Sawyer twist. I'd have been happy with a slavish BG2 clone, but this is also pretty exciting. If it pans out well we will have a body of games which are similar but different, which bodes well for years of replaying. If not, I think it was worth a try to have a game which at least has a direct heritage from the IE era.

 

[mastroego]

Hell, the IE games didn't strictly translate D&D themselves. Everyone's favorite, PST, look the most liberties of all.

This is fuel to our argument, actually.
PST was great because it went along with every possible craziness. Characters, environment, items, spells, events, all were what they were thanks to the fact that imagination was completely unleashed to capture the dreams and the hearts of the players.
You can bet that "balance" was never very high a concern for PST's development team.

And it had the shittiest combat of all IE games.

Good fuel.

I keep saying, it's not about having a copy of BG2 system.
It's about putting the charm, the characters and the settings above the mechanics. As another poster noted, you need stuff that "breaks the rules".

And, btw, PST was so beloved despite its shortcomings, because of the uniqueness and beauty of its story and the experience it provided.
Good luck to Sawyer, creating a story of that quality...

 

[Cosmo]

Because you can bet that a lot of the money funding this game came from those repulsive grognards. The casual guys are quite happy with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

The problem with grognards is not their repulsiveness, but the fact that that they want to stick to old formulas as a matter of principle.

 

[felipepepe]

Yeah, I can totally see that innovation is the main point of nostalgia-driven Kickstarters. That's why they keep pointing to games released 15 years ago and promising to make similar ones.

 

[Cosmo]

You weren't proposed a clone, but "a game inpired by".
Which reminds me that the good thing in those classics from the late 90's was that they were at the time a promise of innovation, nipped in the bud by the XBOX era.
Now at last the genre can continue to move on, which does not mean that i think Sawyer has all the answers mind you.
I simply see his principles as sound (in principle...) and am willing to give him a chance.
And if what he does is total shit (which i doubt), Obsidian will certainly learn a lesson and correct things in their next kickstarter...