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Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

ZagorTeNej

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The problem with grognards is not their repulsiveness, but the fact that that they want to stick to old formulas as a matter of principle.

Or as a matter of taste, ever considered that? People often mistake one's preference for nostalgia. Maybe I just prefer (irregardless of my beloved game from childhood) a system in which for example STR only affects physical damage or where thieving skills (lockpick, pickpocket, stealth) are exclusive to thief (sorry, rogue).
 

FeelTheRads

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And it had the shittiest combat of all IE games.

It's because of the unique items, I'm sure.

Because you can bet that a lot of the money funding this game came from those repulsive grognards.

Besides, if he can say "Your fun is not fun" then one can say "Well, I have a lot of fun with my money, think I'm gonna keep them if you think they're not fun".

Which reminds me that the good thing in those classics from the late 90's was that they were at the time a promise of innovation, nipped in the bud by the XBOX era.

Umm, no. Now we're always promised innovation too. Except it pretty much always sucks. From health regenerations to cover systems to all that crap, it was all branded as awesome innovation.
Bethesda always innovates too. So does Bioware.

And what's the problem with having more of the same? Like felipepepe says, that's what the Kickstarter was built on. Even if you want to twist it and say that it wasn't really about that, I don't know, are you really bored of the "classic RPGs"?

Maybe you could find an even more vague criteria ?

"Matter of principle" sounds pretty vague to me. In fact, I think you want "innovative" stuff as a matter of principle.
 

Ninjerk

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You weren't proposed a clone, but "a game inpired by".
Which reminds me that the good thing in those classics from the late 90's was that they were at the time a promise of innovation, nipped in the bud by the XBOX era.
Now at last the genre can continue to move on, which does mean that i think Sawyer has all the answers mind you.
I simply see his principles as sound (in principle...) and am willing to give him a chance.
And if what he does is total shit (which i doubt), Obsidian will certainly learn a lesson and correct things in their next kickstarter...

Obviously the most compelling argument will be the game itself. We need it SOON
 

Cosmo

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Project: Eternity
"Matter of principle" sounds pretty vague to me. In fact, I think you want "innovative" stuff as a matter of principle.

No, the reason being that those old classics were good but not perfect, with flaws that can be pinpointed quite accurately (and you thinking stuff won't make it magically true i might add).
 
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felipepepe

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Which reminds me that the good thing in those classics from the late 90's was that they were at the time a promise of innovation, nipped in the bud by the XBOX era.
Now at last the genre can continue to move on, which does mean that i think Sawyer has all the answers mind you.
I simply see his principles as sound (in principle...) and am willing to give him a chance.
Move on by selling itself with the name of 15 year old games. Gotcha. At least Bethesda was honest about going on a "new direction" with F3, and like it or not, they really did that. Not a cowardly half-assed compromise.

No, the reason being that those old classics weren't perfect, an had flaws that are not that hard to identify.
Absolutely true. And how do you fix flaws in a beloved system? I'm sure it's not by throwing it out of the window and creating an entirely new untested one.
 

FeelTheRads

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No, the reason being that those old classics were good but not perfect, with flaws that can be pinpointed quite accurately

Well, as someone once said "one man's pet stained carpet is another man's twister game".
So yeah, pretty vague. Lots of things you think are flaws are perfectly fine for me.
 

Cosmo

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Absolutely true. And how do you fix flaws in a beloved system? I'm sure it's not by throwing it out of the window and creating an entirely new untested one.

Don't be childish : you know as well as i do they can't have D&D's rights.
 

felipepepe

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Don't be childish : you know as well as i do they can't have D&D's rights.
Ever heard of Open Game License? How do you think Knights of the Chalice uses D&D?

Also, there's Pathfinder. Obsidian is doing a card game for them already, they could easily have done PoE using Pathfinder from the start.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
D&D is cool because it has a great spell list and bestiary. Not because a 14 STR fighter is basically useless.
 

Athelas

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Pretty sure the first and foremost goal of the Kickstarter was to build up their own IP completely divorced from D&D or other possble IP-ownership issues...



...while marketing it as being just like those old D&D games. :troll:
 

Duraframe300

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Don't be childish : you know as well as i do they can't have D&D's rights.
Ever heard of Open Game License? How do you think Knights of the Chalice uses D&D?

Also, there's Pathfinder. Obsidian is doing a card game for them already, they could easily have done PoE using Pathfinder from the start.

What?

That deal isn't even two/three months old. Literally. They specifically mentioned that they signed just before gencom/gamescom.
 

felipepepe

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Yeah, the deal for the Card game was made recently, but nothing was stopping them from talking with Paizo for the Kickstarter campaing. Or, again, from using OGL.
 

Infinitron

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Didn't we have this exact same conversation with Grunker back in 2012?

Obsidian is one of the world's top CRPG developers and it's right and proper that they should have their own system, wholly owned by them. That ship has sailed.
 

Duraframe300

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Yeah, the deal for the Card game was made recently, but nothing was stopping them from talking with Paizo for the Kickstarter campaing. Or, again, from using OGL.

They didn't have connections with paizo before?

And that deal was for the license (use in electronic games) itself, not for the card game specifically.
 

Duraframe300

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I haven't known Josh to be one to dodge accountability or deflect blame. I've known him to own his mistakes and to learn from them. I would be surprised to see him make excuses, either publicly or to himself. (If it does appear that some statement he makes sounds like an excuse, consider there may be other perspectives to what he was actually saying and that he might have meant it in that context, not as an excuse.)
I don't doubt you, but we know different "Sawyers". You know the person, I know the games and quotes that I come across. I.

Felipepe among your raging I can't find what points you are trying to make.

I mean here you freely admit that you are arguing against a fictional version of Sawyer from your impression of him.

And you use that as what exactly? Handwaving away Kevin because the actual person Sawyer apparently doesn't matter?

Or something else?

Are you just looking for things to be angry about?

You're a cool codexer, but I'm seriously confused.
 

felipepepe

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My point was the rest of the post that you quoted out. What I meant in that part was that I don't know the Sawyer "person" that Kevin knows, only the Sawyer "developer", the one making the games and saying the quotes. It's not a "fictional" person, but a public one. He may be the most comprehensive, humble and grognard-loving person in the world in real-life, but that's not the impression one takes from his quotes. From my POV, he's the guy saying that what I think is fun is wrong and isn't fun at all.
 

Duraframe300

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My point was the rest of the post that you quoted out. What I meant in that part was that I don't know the Sawyer "person" that Kevin knows, only the Sawyer "developer", the one making the games and saying the quotes. It's not a "fictional" person, but a public one. He may be the most comprehensive, humble and grognard-loving person in the world in real-life, but that's not the impression one takes from his quotes. From my POV, he's the guy saying that what I think is fun is wrong and isn't fun at all.

Yeah, exactly. Said person is still fictional. And you use that argument to handwave Kevin away while Kevins entire post was about clearing up who Sawyer REALLY is.

That doesn't give Sawyer an award for internet talk, but eh.

I don't get it.
 

felipepepe

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What you don't get? Sawyer said some utterly retarded things, like how people don't know what's fun. Kevin says he's a cool guy in real life and I believe him, but that doesn't erase what Sawyer said.
 

Duraframe300

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What you don't get? Sawyer said some utterly retarded things, like how people don't know what's fun. Kevin says he's a cool guy in real life and I believe him, but that doesn't erase what Sawyer said.

Your point.

Is it Sawyer sucks at online PR/expressing himself over the internet? Because then it makes sense.

I just got the expression that you're trying to continue the argument from before despite now knowing that it isn't the case. Because then I wouldn't get it.
 
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I always thought Sawyer's douchery was supposed to be funny in a dry kind of way. For the longest time I actually thought a lot of the reactions themselves were jokes/trolling.

Then I realized a lot of people's reactions were genuine..
:what:
 

HiddenX

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Pillars of Eternity interview: Josh Sawyer on world-building, magic, psychic warriors and more

PC Gamer: What kind of fantasy RPG standards or cliches are you trying to avoid or subvert?

Josh Sawyer: I just try to avoid doing things that I don’t personally like. For example, the class balance stuff was done because I’ve made a bunch of these games, and I’ve been playing D&D for most of my life, and I keep seeing very strong trends towards behaviour that I don’t think makes players happier. It doesn’t give them as much choice as the systems claim to give them, and I think we can do a better job. If someone wants to make a brilliant, weakling fighter, that is a build that is viable in our game, and it’s rewarded within the conversations and the fiction of the world. That’s not something that’s really true of playing Dungeons & Dragons.

If you want to make a muscle wizard, who is mighty and powerful and a stupid idiot, you can do that. Mechanically what happens is that you’ll do a lot of damage, but their durations and areas of effects will be very small. Then in conversation they’re total idiots. [laughs] You can bully people and you can pick them up off the ground and slap them around. It’s not like I’m setting out to subvert stuff. I play tabletop games with a lot of people who have really great ideas for characters, but mechanically they’re shitty characters. So when I try to fix that stuff, it’s not because I think it’s inherently better, but that it gives more opportunities to players to create more diverse characters, and feel rewarded for doing so.


****

PCWorld: Deep dive with Pillars of Eternity project lead Josh Sawyer: The full interview

You’re not using a D&D rule set. How are you going about designing a rule set for Eternity?

JOSH SAWYER (JS): Well, it’s very important that overall the game plays and generally feels like a D&D game of unspecified edition. I’ve been playing D&D since ‘85...so there’s a bunch of editions and a lot of changes in there, so capturing the spirit of that can be elusive. I want people to feel like if they have characters that they love playing—we’re not going to be able to do this for everyone, but generally speaking—if you’re like, I want to play an elf who’s super good with a bow, I want to play this dude who’s like this or whatever, you can make that sort of character who fits into this world. The character you made in BG or BG2, you generally can make that sort of character here.

I want to key in on specific things that people are like “I really want this sort of a thing, I really like this sort of a thing,” I’ll make sure we can accommodate that. When it comes to specific mechanics of how like attack resolution happens, how armor works, all that crap, I’m much more—calling it crap is really good in an interview—I’m much more practical about that. I don’t want to use convoluted stuff because the older rules were convoluted. I’d rather make unified mechanics that when you learn them they’re consistent across the board, easier to learn, easier to understand as they scale over the course of the game, because that’s—a lot of the things I felt—when I was working on the Infinity Engine games the things that would bum me out would be seeing—we’d see this on our boards too, people talking about how they or their relatives or their friends would try to play these games, they’re very enthusiastic, they like the idea, and the rules were an obstacle. It wasn’t that they didn’t want to learn the rules, but there are so many of them, they’re so specific, they’re so convoluted, and trying to make more unified mechanics—

Adam Brennecke (AB): And it’s really easy to make a bad character.

JS: In the old games, yes. So we would like—a good way of saying this is if you want to make a character that totally fits the archetype of the character you conceive, like let’s say you say, “I want to make a character who’s a wizard and that character has a high intellect”—in our game it’s intellect, not intelligence. Or if you say “I want to make a rogue,” and the rogue has a high dexterity. Those are great characters! They work great. They might not work exactly how you think they’re going to work, but they’re good characters. You make a fighter with a high strength—also a good character. Doesn’t exactly work the way you think it might, but it’s a good character.

If you play against type. If you’re like, “I want to make a muscle-wizard. It has a high strength and a high con”—that’s also a very good character. If you want to make a fighter with a high intelligence and a high resolve, that’s also a good character.

Might not be the most optimal character, but it’s not a bad character.

It’s not impossible

JS: No, it’s not impossible. You get something. Every class gets something out of the ability scores. Every class can work with given arrays. There aren’t weird, like, “FYI: after ten levels this character’s not going to be viable.”

So it’s just about doing stuff like that to make people feel like, “Go into it, there’s no hidden gotchas, make the character you want to make, and if you find it’s not quite playing the way you thought you’ll be able to adjust and you’ll be okay. It won’t always be optimal, and we’re not trying to make everything perfectly balanced. The goal is to say, “Don’t not consider it.”

We have to consider, what if someone wants to make the foxing idiot wizard or the weakling fighter? They’re going to have some problems, but whatever you dumped—if you dumped this and jacked something else, you’re going to get something else neat out of it. And hopefully what that turns into is not just a worse play experience, but a different play experience. Because I jacked these stats, my character veers into this other play style, so I have to play him a different way.

Josh is basically saying:
1) Do whatever you want at character creation - your character will not be bad, every build works.
2) I want easy to learn unified rules for every character class
3) I want to allow the player more choices at character creation (less restrictions)

IMHO dumbing down D&D at its very best.

So what he really wants is a classless system - like Spiderweb games.
OK - this is fun, too. But it has NOTHING to do with D&D games.

PS:
I like Spiderweb games - but most of the time I end up with a party in which every character can:
a) wield a close combat weapon
b) use a bow
c) can heal
d) can use magic

The perfect Battlemage-Fighter-Cleric generalist -> not very realistic roleplaying.
 
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felipepepe

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Your point.
PoE is a lame compromise between a "IE-like game" and "Suck My Dick: Sawyer's Dream RPG Experience". It doesn't make those who want a BG2-clone happy, nor it brings something significantly new and fresh to the table (as if he went classless). On top of that, Sawyer is being disingenuous by declaring he isn't doing "whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good." He may not been doing everything he wishes, but he's sure being doing A LOT to deviate from the IE games. Especially since he competently disregards what part of the people that backed this project think it was fun in those games.

That's my point. The rest is people debating my interpretation of his quotes, or if Sawyer is like that personally.
 

Duraframe300

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Your point.
PoE is a lame compromise between a "IE-like game" and "Suck My Dick: Sawyer's Dream RPG Experience". It doesn't make those who want a BG2-clone happy, nor it brings something significantly new and fresh to the table. However, Sawyer is being disingenuous by declaring he isn't doing "whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good." He may not been doing everything he wishes, but he's sure being doing A LOT to deviate from the IE games. Especially since he competently disregards what part of the people that backed this project think it was fun in those games.

That's my point. The rest is people debating my interpretation of his quotes, or if Sawyer is like that personally.

Yeah, I don't get you.

Carry on. I'm staying out.
 

Athelas

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Since when is a classless RPG 'bringing something new and fresh to the table'? It's not exactly a novel concept.

And PoE has plenty of innovations, like naked characters finally being a viable (and arguably the strongest) offensive build. :troll:
 

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