Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[Zorba the Hutt]

And PoE has plenty of innovations, like naked characters finally being a viable (and arguably the strongest) offensive build.

If anyone was going to make a viable character out of a naked muscle wizard with an arquebus.... I would have thought it would be Larian.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

One of the worst thing about all my nude skyrim mods is that I still have to put armor on my waifu if I want her to be viable. Now I can enjoy the great artwork that the modding community creates while still being combat effective.

THANKS PoE!

 

[TheGreatOne]

Some one should inform Josh Sawyer that before he can make his Daikatana, he's supposed to make his Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and Quake first. I guess he's an impatient man, as evidenced by his claims of being most competent CRPG designer of all time despite the fact that he actually hasn't made any competent CRPGs as of yet. Buggy, unfinished products with poor core gameplay don't count as competently made games even if they do have good writing, quests or C&C. That would mean that his games are on the same level as cargo cult trash like Arcanum, and as far as flawed gems go, there's no question who wins in a fight between Obsidian and Troika.

All hail the king of CRPG designers. He's about to make you his bitch, balance it out.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Josh is basically saying:
1) Do whatever you want at character creation - your character will not be bad, every build works.
2) I want easy to learn unified rules for every character class
3) I want to allow the player more choices at character creation (less restrictions)

Is there any world in which 1 and 3 are a bad thing?

 

[HiddenX]

If every character works - where is the fun and challenge to create a character or a well balanced party of characters?

By Josh's logic I could start a game immediatly with a fully randomized party - it would still work ->

 

[TheGreatOne]

Yes. An axe wielding melee priest should suck. What's the point in playing RPGs if we can't make videos where we laugh at bad builds? But that's also the beauty of party based games. You should be able to make some unique combinations where individual characters talent builds would suck ass in most/all situations, but have synergy as a group, even to the point of being overpowered. Even in single player RPGs that can be fun, like making weird builds in wow that would exploit some glitch (which might only work if you have certain buff applied or some items equipped, but when it would work, it would be awesome).

 

[Athelas]

If every character works - where is the fun and challenge to create a character or a well balanced party of characters?

By Josh's logic I could start a game immediatly with a fully randomized party - it would still work ->

You make it sound as if chargen in the IE games was rocket science. In truth, they would've been completely fine without attributes since there was always a very obvious optimal build for every class.

 

[HiddenX]

Josh wants to make an game in the IE tradition.

My personal favorite at character creation are Wizardry games. I spent hours at character generation before starting the game - great fun.

 

[TheGreatOne]

There's a difference between "IE character generation didn't offer many actual choices for any one who knows anything about RPGs" and "clicking randomly on shit and putting all your points on INT on your warrior should be a viable option"

 

[4too]

Learning Animal

You weren't proposed a clone, but "a game inpired by".
Which reminds me that the good thing in those classics from the late 90's was that they were at the time a promise of innovation, nipped in the bud by the XBOX era.
Now at last the genre can continue to move on, which does mean that i think Sawyer has all the answers mind you.
I simply see his principles as sound (in principle...) and am willing to give him a chance.
And if what he does is total shit (which i doubt), Obsidian will certainly learn a lesson and correct things in their next kickstarter…

… Obsidian will certainly learn a lesson and correct things in their next kickstarter…

Allow me to take this image out of the context of the focus of your argument. It seems to relate to what Obsidian the corporation will learn from the PoE Kickstarter odyssey.

Will Obsidian change how they sell their new ideas / innovations, or hide their ideals? 'Ideal' corporate strategies that will maximize the capital donation. Ideals like BAIT AND SWITCH.

An alleged 'bait and switch' appears to have worked for maximizing PoE donations.

Critics of Obsidian corporation veracity are stopped cold by dehumanization.

Misdirection will not be a main market hot button, a future Kickstarter Stopper.

What will Obsidian the corporation learn from the PoE KIckstarter experience?

Candor? Transparency? Truth-e-ness! Or BAIT AND SWITCH.







4too

 

[Roguey]

If every character works - where is the fun and challenge to create a character or a well balanced party of characters?

By Josh's logic I could start a game immediatly with a fully randomized party - it would still work ->

Every character concept would ideally have different strengths and weaknesses. Outside of gimmicky replays, I don't think anyone intentionally sets out to make a bad character.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

If every character works - where is the fun and challenge to create a character or a well balanced party of characters?

By Josh's logic I could start a game immediatly with a fully randomized party - it would still work ->

The fun is in being able to make a wider variety of characters that play in unique ways. As for challenge, unbalanced systems aren't challenging, since the options tend to be obvious, and everyone simply shares the best build(s). Very few people aren't reading about the game to not know about it.

No, you'd have to make it work, it'll have strengths and weaknesses like every build should. Powergaming the broken system shouldn't really be the goal, the goal should be making creative characters and learning to play to their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[felipepepe]

As for challenge, unbalanced systems aren't challenging, since the options tend to be obvious, and everyone simply shares the best build(s). Very few people aren't reading about the game to not know about it.

Reatrded popamole logic. "We won't make puzzles, cause everyone just googles the answer".

Since when is a classless RPG 'bringing something new and fresh to the table'? It's not exactly a novel concept.

In party-based fantasy games? They appear a lot in post-apocalyptic or modern-age games, but I the last classless fantasy game was what, Ishar?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Reatrded popamole logic. "We won't make puzzles, cause everyone just googles the answer".

Same as with "why have players die if they reload anyway" .

Also, how can there be weaknesses if in theory any combination should work equally well?

 

[Onholyservicebound]

As for challenge, unbalanced systems aren't challenging, since the options tend to be obvious, and everyone simply shares the best build(s). Very few people aren't reading about the game to not know about it.

Reatrded popamole logic. "We won't make puzzles, cause everyone just googles the answer".

More like, RPG logic. "We won't make an obvious best choice because that's a boring non-choice and discourages unique builds and play".

How can there be weaknesses if in theory any combination should work equally well?

Because it only has the POTENTIAL to work equally well, get it?
And the potential comes from you playing to it's
strengths and weaknesses.

 

[HiddenX]

My point: A weak party build should be punished by the game so that the player has to adjust.

A weak fighter makes no sense
A mage with no intelligence makes no sense

As in real life

• you have to fulfill some requirements to choose a profession.
• If you have chosen a profession you cannot learn multiple other professions in one life.
• If you have certain physical/mental restrictions you cannot chose every profession.

 

[tuluse]

Same as with "why have players die if they reload anyway" .

Also, how can there be weaknesses if in theory any combination should work equally well?

Yeah that would totally be a retarded premise for a game

 

[tuluse]

A mage with no intelligence makes no sense

I understand the realism argument for fighters, but I don't get this one at all.

Why do mages need intelligence? In a brand new fantasy world, why is magic only controllable by smart people?

 

[HiddenX]

In all fantasy worlds I know magic has to do with a lot of learning and studying...

 

[FeelTheRads]

Because it only has the POTENTIAL to work equally well, get it?
And the potential comes from you playing to it's
strengths and weaknesses.

Nope, I don't.
- Weaknesses come from weaknesses?
- Or strengths and weaknesses come from your own strengths and weaknesses as a player instead of those of the character?

Either way, circular logic.

 

[Ninjerk]

In all fantasy worlds I know magic has to do with a lot of learning and studying...

Witchcraft and folk magic is usually pretty dumb (although I don't think that's what they're going for with magic in PoE).

 

[Delterius]

Why do mages need intelligence? In a brand new fantasy world, why is magic only controllable by smart people?

You people will never understand.

 

[tuluse]

In all fantasy worlds I know magic has to do with a lot of learning and studying...

Star Wars: magic, known as the force, is just an intrinsic quality of the individual

Lord of the Rings: magic is an intrinsic quality of either the individual or item

Harry Potter: magic is an intrinsic quality of the individual

Dungeons and Dragons: Divine magic is a power bestowed by the gods and you don't need to be smart to use or learn it

 

[Athelas]

The Vancian and INT-based magic system in PS:T was actually at odds with the way the narrative depicted magic, as being spontaneous and stemming from belief.

 

[Jasede]

This is like trying to explain why Dark Souls is a good game...