Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[Blaine]

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to an intelligence-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through extensive research, memorization, deciphering, problem-solving, experimentation, scribing, and so on.

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to a charisma-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through pacts with demons or spirits, sheer force of will, strong emotion, performance, song, voice, whatever.

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to a wisdom-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through communing with the universe, pacts with or devotion to deities, and such like.

What's more, in the case of all three, it also makes sense that a character who's gifted in the attribute and ancillary disciplines tied to harnessing that magical force would also be good at related tasks, such as high-intelligence characters conducting mundane research or investigations, high-charisma characters arguing or seducing, and high-wisdom characters being good at philosophy or... something.

"Psionics" are a bit of a toss-up. You can conceptually base them on any attribute, or nothing at all.

Strength magic doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever to me personally, unless you're a runesmith or something. There's no conceptual tie there. Perhaps extremely heavy staves and wands or something?

No system is perfect, and all Sawyer has really done to break with tradition is to take conventional Wisdom, chop it in half, glue one half (i.e. the "spiritual offense" portion of Wisdom) to the conventional Strength stat which is instead called Might, glue the other half (i.e. the "spiritual defense" portion of Wisdom) to the conventional Charisma stat which is instead called Resolve, turn conventional Intelligence into an AoE/duration determinator, and finally roll its conventional magical offense/defense function into Might and Resolve as well.

It's a slightly more abstracted system in which all strongmen are also highly spiritual (Muscle Jesus, anyone? Anyone...?), masked by the fact that classes and such will determine and control how Might is actually brought to bear in a meaningful way. Resolve seems to make good conceptual sense as-is.

It's not a bad system, really, as long as you don't mind the quirk of Might. Saint Schwarzenegger, perhaps? Anybody?

 

[Roguey]

Putting points in intelligence doesn't even increase your damage in D&D. It does improve the difficulty class of spells, in which case its equivalent in PoE is actually dexterity.

 

[HiddenX]

​

Spoiler

 

[Blaine]

Putting points in intelligence doesn't even increase your damage in D&D. It does improve the difficulty class of spells, in which case its equivalent in PoE is actually dexterity.

I don't know much about further editions of D&D past 3.0 due to the d20 system being garbage, but last I checked, Intelligence also governs how many bonus spells may be memorized and the maximum level of spells a wizard-archetype magic user can cast. That's a significant factor in D&D's Vancian magic system.

Since an attribute does directly affect the damage dealt by spells in Pillars of Eternity, comparing and contrasting PoE's attribute system with the many other non-D&D systems in which an intelligence-like attribute also affects spell damage is appropriate.

 

[Shannow]

It's not a bad system, really, as long as you don't mind the quirk of Might. Saint Schwarzenegger, perhaps? Anybody?

Actually that is the issue. Schwarzenegger is somebody with very high strength. That's not the same as high soul power. So while you can explain muscle might wizards in He-Man RPG lore, actually physically strong characters are not special in any way that is represented in the char system and get no benefit from being strong. Not a real "problem" IMO, but a funny quirk.
The benefit of the whole soul-power system is that you can rationalize "from zero to hero" much better than in D&D. The problem for me personally is that I'm bothered by the mechanic itself much more than I was bothered by a lack of rationalisation

Also: Conan is no muscle wizard. Don't be stupid...
Kane is :

 

[Rivmusique]

PoE-style wizards casting at each other. Notice how they both temp buff their might before/while casting to increase their spell's power.

Spoiler

 

[crawlkill]

I agree with you. Roguey does deserve a tag, although something more customized than fanboy would be more appropriate. "Sawyer Cultist" or "Cult of Sawyer" or something. If anybody wants to volunteer to create one, feel free.

Josh Kosh M'gosh
Drank the Soy-Aid
Sawyer Swayer [Sways for Sawyer, other variations]
Slave to the Obsidiman
The Sawyer Yearws [anagram doesn't quite work]
And All Should Cry "Sawyare, Sawyare"
Jabberjoshy
They See Me Sawyern

I've gone too far I'm blind now

also why did it drop me on a post from August, am I too late

 

[Declinator]

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to an intelligence-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through extensive research, memorization, deciphering, problem-solving, experimentation, scribing, and so on.

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to a charisma-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through pacts with demons or spirits, sheer force of will, strong emotion, performance, song, voice, whatever.

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to a wisdom-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through communing with the universe, pacts with or devotion to deities, and such like.

What's more, in the case of all three, it also makes sense that a character who's gifted in the attribute and ancillary disciplines tied to harnessing that magical force would also be good at related tasks, such as high-intelligence characters conducting mundane research or investigations, high-charisma characters arguing or seducing, and high-wisdom characters being good at philosophy or... something.

"Psionics" are a bit of a toss-up. You can conceptually base them on any attribute, or nothing at all.

Strength magic doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever to me personally, unless you're a runesmith or something. There's no conceptual tie there. Perhaps extremely heavy staves and wands or something?

It could make sense (to attach magic power to strength) if you think magic is more powerful the more life force or some other Ki stand-in you have and if this Ki is increased through physical strength. Don't some weirdos believe stuff like this exists in real life too? (That people can achieve supernatural powers through martial arts training or something to that effect.)

Alternatively you could actually make magic something that actually needs to be physically grasped and handled, maybe some sort of a willful flowing pockets of tangible energy that need to be taken and molded.

Almost any attribute could be tied to magic and still make sense.

Perception: you need to have keen senses to hear and understand "the name of the wind" etc.

Luck: magic is a chaotic force and only the luckiest could possibly survive using it (backfiring magic.)

Endurance: magic corrodes and destroys everything so only the sturdiest can handle it

Can't think of anything off-hand for agility but there is probably an explanation for it too out there that would make some sense.

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to a charisma-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through...sheer force of will...

I don't see what charisma has to do with willpower though.

It makes conceptual and logical sense to tie magic to a wisdom-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through...pacts with or devotion to deities...

Nor what possible connection wisdom has with pacts (whether they be with deities or not.) Especially as you earlier said that:

...tie magic to a charisma-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through pacts with demons or spirits...

 

[Blaine]

It could make sense (to attach magic power to strength) if you think magic is more powerful the more life force or some other Ki stand-in you have and if this Ki is increased through physical strength. Don't some weirdos believe stuff like this exists in real life too? (That people can achieve supernatural powers through martial arts training or something to that effect.)

Yes, to a degree, and for monk- or martial artist-style characters (or some iteration/variant thereof), that might make sense. Blasting ten blazing, homing purple force missiles from each fingertip, laying down shining runic circles of protection, or summoning a dragon would be Dragonball Z-caliber cinematic in the context of "kiai"-type abilities, though.

I don't see what charisma has to do with willpower though.

I've never heard of any cripplingly shy pussies with low self-esteem referred to as "charismatic." Most persons described as charismatic in real life are great statesmen and political leaders, generals and officers, captains of industry, religious, spiritual, or cult leaders, celebrity entertainers, lawyers and judges, et cetera. The common thread of all these people is that they make their mark on the world and/or the people in it, even if in relatively small ways, through their force of will.

No RPG attribute system is perfect. They're all highly abstracted.

Nor what possible connection wisdom has with pacts (whether they be with deities or not.) Especially as you earlier said that:

...tie magic to a charisma-like attribute when the magical force is harnessed through pacts with demons or spirits...

So what? Demons and spirits aren't deities in most settings, only supernatural. To commune with or pray to gods arguably increases/requires understanding of the universe (in a fictional universe in which gods definitely do exist, that is). You needn't bargain with them directly, whereas with a demon or spirit you may need to "out-will" them directly. Wisdom could be said to represent inherent understanding of the workings of the universe, in addition to its practical sense of life experience, the ability to dispense good advice, to properly assess life's sticky situations, make the right decision when faced with a difficult dilemma, and so on.

If muscle wizards make good conceptual and logical sense to you in the context of a high fantasy (but not over-the-top cinematic) cRPG, that's great.

 

[Bibbimbop]

It could make sense (to attach magic power to strength) if you think magic is more powerful the more life force or some other Ki stand-in you have and if this Ki is increased through physical strength. Don't some weirdos believe stuff like this exists in real life too? (That people can achieve supernatural powers through martial arts training or something to that effect.)

About 1.2 billion weirdos still believe in Qi. It is a central concept to eastern medicine, which is still taken very seriously in China.

Can't think of anything off-hand for agility but there is probably an explanation for it too out there that would make some sense.

The magic of the world can only be unlocked by wizards doing dance-offs against each other on so-called "Dance, Dance, Incantation" machines, which are special aether-attuned grids of runes that can translate the beauty and grace of interpretive dance into ultimate arcane power.

Actually that is the issue. Schwarzenegger is somebody with very high strength. That's not the same as high soul power.

Bad example. Arnold has an exceptional sense of self-determination--or soul, or whatever--compared to the average person. Even with a cornucopia of pharmaceuticals on your side, a successful body-building regimen is not easy. Whether lifting or dieting to single-digit bodyfat levels, it takes a special drive. Weight-lifting requires soul. (Maybe that's why black people are better at muscle gain than most soulless caucasoids and asians.)

 

[Declinator]

I don't see what charisma has to do with willpower though.

I've never heard of any cripplingly shy pussies with low self-esteem referred to as "charismatic." Most persons described as charismatic in real life are great statesmen and political leaders, generals and officers, captains of industry, religious, spiritual, or cult leaders, celebrity entertainers, lawyers and judges, et cetera. The common thread of all these people is that they make their mark on the world and/or the people in it, even if in relatively small ways, through their force of will.

Willpower != confidence and/or self-esteem

Most great men probably have a great amount of willpower but their charisma is not tied to their willpower as much as it is tied to their confidence, appearance, usage of voice etc.

So what? Demons and spirits aren't deities in most settings, only supernatural. To commune with or pray to gods arguably increases/requires understanding of the universe (in a fictional universe in which gods definitely do exist, that is). You needn't bargain with them directly, whereas with a demon or spirit you may need to "out-will" them directly. Wisdom could be said to represent inherent understanding of the workings of the universe, in addition to its practical sense of life experience, the ability to dispense good advice, to properly assess life's sticky situations, make the right decision when faced with a difficult dilemma, and so on.

The only thing I disagree with is that communing with gods "increases/requires understanding of the universe (in a fictional universe in which gods definitely do exist, that is)." I don't see why this is so and especially not in a setting where you have multiple, possibly capricious, gods with personalities. If the gods are some sort of all-knowing, personality-less fountains of wisdom or if the indirect bargaining is less dependent on pleasing the god than it is on understanding the nature of the god I can see how it would be tied to wisdom but otherwise it seems to me that it should be purely about Charisma as far as attributes go.

If muscle wizards make good conceptual and logical sense to you in the context of a high fantasy (but not over-the-top cinematic) cRPG, that's great.

Truthfully I don't like the concept of a muscle wizard and it isn't as easy to swallow as the high int wizard but I can swallow it nevertheless.

About 1.2 billion weirdos still believe in Qi. It is a central concept to eastern medicine, which is still taken very seriously in China.

The flow of energy inside their bodies, sure, but they don't believe they are able to project that energy outside their bodies, do they? That belief is what I meant in particular.

 

[Shannow]

Actually that is the issue. Schwarzenegger is somebody with very high strength. That's not the same as high soul power.

Bad example. Arnold has an exceptional sense of self-determination--or soul, or whatever--compared to the average person. Even with a cornucopia of pharmaceuticals on your side, a successful body-building regimen is not easy. Whether lifting or dieting to single-digit bodyfat levels, it takes a special drive. Weight-lifting requires soul. (Maybe that's why black people are better at muscle gain than most soulless caucasoids and asians.)

I can't believe I'm actually arguing this nonsense but "Waster of Time", I've got a title to honor.
Determination != magical soul power that increases if you do fetch quests. If anything at all, determination would be "Resolve" in He-Man RPG.

 

[HiddenX]

I like this proposition (Obisidan boards; user: Fearabbit)

Attributes: The case for turning Might into Strength, and improving the whole system in the process.

It's time to accept that Might is not accepted by many players.

I love the idea of an attribute system where every attribute is useful for every class, but many people just don't like the idea that mental and physical power are based on the same attribute. And I can understand why. We want our fragile old wizards who deal tons of damage. We don't want "muscle wizards", no matter how wacky and fun that sounds. There is a disconnect between the Might attribute and our understanding of what attributes are supposed to represent in a character.

Also, some of the attributes are somewhat unintuitive right now. And unbalanced.

Resolve and Perception are dump stats right now. Resolve is a lot like Willpower, a mental intensity and presence. But nothing meaningful is tied to it. Perception is your awareness of surroundings, but same problem, it's only used for a mechanic that, while sounding interesting, is not very intuitive. Dexterity on the other hand seems bloated with all the things it governs.

I want to change that, but I realize it won't be completely balanced.

This is also something we'll just have to accept. Either we have a balanced system, or we have a slightly unbalanced system that makes people happy. My goal here is to make it just a tiny bit unbalanced while still making different builds possible and fun to play.

What I'm NOT going to do is try and balance the system perfectly. Many people go ahead and say "okay so my system is Might gives 2% weapon damage, +1% to crits, blabla..." Going into detail like that won't solve anything. I want to propose a system where a fighter has reasons for different builds, and where a spellcaster has reasons for different builds. If there's a general reason for each class to put points into all attributes, then the system is balanceable. And that's all I'm aiming for right now.

(By the way - the current system IS balanceable. It's just a question of making Interrupts and Concentration more important and Damage less important. The problem with the current system is not that it's unbalanced, it's that it's at its core not well-liked.)

Even if the system turns out a bit unbalanced, the gameplay outside of combat takes care of that.

Because seriously. The non-combat gameplay sounds awesome. There's lots of attribute checks etc and it sounds like roleplaying will be a blast. So even if combat isn't exactly balanced, I believe every character build will be interesting enough simply because of its non-combat possibilities that it warrants at least one playthrough. This is my main argument for why it's not so bad to have a slightly unbalanced system. If someone ignores all that content and only goes for min-maxing... well that really is his problem.

With all that said... here's my proposal.

• Turn Might into Strength. Take out the Magic/Ability Damage. This instantly makes the attribute less interesting for many classes.
• Add Magic/Ability Damage to Resolve.As said, Resolve is basically Willpower. It's a perfect fit for Magic/Ability Damage and instantly makes this attribute important to a lot of classes - mostly to spellcasters however, for whom this will be the main attribute along with Intellect.
• Keep Intellect as AoE and Duration modifier. Resolve is a character's intensity, but intellect is his cleverness and allows them to shape their powers to their will. Makes perfect sense and is intuitive.
• Split Accuracy into Melee Accuracy and Ranged Accuracy. Leave Melee Accuracy in DEX, put Ranged Accuracy into PER.Perception is the attribute for keen sight and aiming. Ranged combat should benefit hugely from it, and this way it does. DEX was never a good fit for ranged accuracy.
• Add Ranged Reload Speed to DEX and Melee Crits to PER. DEX is however a perfect fit for reload speed, and we can use that to keep it interesting for ranged combatants. PER on the other hand allows melee combatants to see openings and use them. This makes it interesting for them without overpowering it for ranged combat.

That's it. Now you might think "but now Strength is useless for spellcasters". But that's not true. First of all, there's the Healing which they can still benefit from. Then: Druids need it in their animal shape. Ciphers, Chanters and Monks need it anyway because part of their class is based upon attacking first and using powers later. And Wizards and Priests actually have spells at their disposal that are only useful when they have decent Strength. It's totally possible to play a Battlemage this way.

But yeah, if you want to play a glass-cannon wizard, you can dump Strength now while still dealing tons of damage. (You won't be able to intimidate anyone anymore though.) And all in all, Strength might be a bit too unimportant for spellcasters now. But that's the price you have to pay to make the players happy, and I believe this solution is still pretty good.

Hope some of the devs read and consider this.

P.S. And no I don't want a discussion about whether the current system is intuitive or not. This is a proposal under the premise that the majority of players don't like the current system. If that's not true in your opinion, great, you can ignore this. If it is true, then this is the closest I can think of to keeping the current system while making the majority of players happy at the same time.

 

[serch]

Problem with that is that magic users won't need strength but melee fighters will need resolve to some degree. Balance destroyed, Sawyer panics

 

[Syril]

'Trash' options are not realy 'trash' options. This just shows an insight into Sawyers mind on how he views them currently. What Sawyer calls 'trash' options, actualy perform an important psychological feature which the developers in 80's and 90's knew about, that's why they were there in the first place and not just as a 'filler' or thing that got slipped in by mistake. It's the basic thing what RPGs are about - progression.
You start with a weak character with bad gear and you naturally progress and get better gear, your character evolves during the journey. The point of RPG is not to have everything balanced and to be gamey, balance and gameism is for MOBAs. RPGs are about power fantasy of a small kid that saves the world and becomes big bad ass dude that chokes deathclaws with his bare hands that you can lose yourself in. RPGs are MEANT to be unbalanced. If RPG becomes balanced, it is a travesty.

Sawyer, do you now understand why Fallout is the best RPG ever made? but it's too late to change that in PoE.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Problem with that is that magic users won't need strength but melee fighters will need resolve to some degree. Balance destroyed, Sawyer panics

Magic users are supposed to be overpowered in cRPGs. This isn't some jRPG where the warrior's regular attack deals 10 damage and magic deals 8 damage but costs 1/3 of your MP.

 

[Shannow]

Problem with that is that magic users won't need strength but melee fighters will need resolve to some degree. Balance destroyed, Sawyer panics

I don't get it. Why would melee-fighters "need" resolve? (I also thought the whole idea is that every class "needs" every stat. )
Supposedly resolve is a dump stat now, and that guy doesn't suggest moving anything to it that's relevant for fighters...

 

[serch]

Improving will defense, avoiding interrupts. Poorly balance now, will probably get better tweaking later

 

[serch]

Problem with that is that magic users won't need strength but melee fighters will need resolve to some degree. Balance destroyed, Sawyer panics

Magic users are supposed to be overpowered in cRPGs. This isn't some jRPG where the warrior's regular attack deals 10 damage and magic deals 8 damage but costs 1/3 of your MP.

So you were one of those weak kids at school, uh?

 

[DragoFireheart]

I don't get it. Why would melee-fighters "need" resolve? (I also thought the whole idea is that every class "needs" every stat. )
Supposedly resolve is a dump stat now, and that guy doesn't suggest moving anything to it that's relevant for fighters...

Fighters realistically do need resolve/willpower/whatever to some degree. Fighting is almost as much psychological as it is physical.

The issue is not requiring mages to have strength on some level. You'd expect some of the more powerful spells to be physical taxing on the body. It's fine to have magic users be more powerful, but there should be a price for that power.

Problem with that is that magic users won't need strength but melee fighters will need resolve to some degree. Balance destroyed, Sawyer panics

Magic users are supposed to be overpowered in cRPGs. This isn't some jRPG where the warrior's regular attack deals 10 damage and magic deals 8 damage but costs 1/3 of your MP.

So you were one of those weak kids at school, uh?

Nah, I the was slightly autistic, socially awkward kid that swung the first punch in every fight.

 

[tuluse]

Problem with that is that magic users won't need strength but melee fighters will need resolve to some degree. Balance destroyed, Sawyer panics

I don't get it. Why would melee-fighters "need" resolve? (I also thought the whole idea is that every class "needs" every stat. )
Supposedly resolve is a dump stat now, and that guy doesn't suggest moving anything to it that's relevant for fighters...

Resolve is only important if you're taking hits. So backline fighters don't need it. Unfortunately, it's fine to not really have it for frontline fighters either as they're still effective meatshields even if they're not attacking.

 

[mastroego]

Stats are:

- Strength
- Dexterity
- Constitution
- Intelligence
- Wisdom
- Charisma

Still here after 40 years for a reason: everybody understand what they are and what they imply
(in a sane game at least).
Then again if you really have to look clever I guess you could have "Might" instead of Strenght , and then have it mean something different than "might" to look even cleverer.

 

[HiddenX]

Even in Wizardry we have the very similar stats

• Strength - Affects any maneuver that requires physical strength, from hitting creatures to the damage done. Strength also influences most weapons skills, carrying capacity and stamina.
  
• Dexterity - Affects the chance to hit and to penetrate with physical attacks, the number of physical attacks in combat and all weapon skills. Dexterity also affects skills which rely upon the body, such as Locks and Traps, Stealth, Pickpocket and Music.
• Vitality - Affects the amount of hit points, stamina and carrying capacity a character receives, as well as and the likelihood of succumbing to disease.
• Intelligence -Affects a character's performance in mental tasks such as music, artifacts, engineering, communication, close and ranged combat, mythology, all forms and schools of magic except Divinity and a character's skill with locks and traps.
• Senses - Affects anything which relies upon a character's senses such as initiative, sighting monsters, finding hidden items or secrets, Scouting, Mythology, Psionics and Artifacts. Senses also affects some combat skills, such as Close Combat, Critical Strike and Dual Weapons.
• Piety - Affects a character's magic realm skills and heavily influences Divinity. Piety also affects the amount of spell power a character gets when he gains levels as well as a character's overall stamina
• Speed - Affects the initiative in combat, the number of swings per attack and the number of attacks per turn. Speed also influences some combat skills. At very high or very low levels, speed can also affect a character's armor class.

 

[Johannes]

Sorcerers have to be super-charismatic to learn the best arcane spells cause, uh....

And wizards have to be super-muscular to have high damage spells cause, uh...

 

[Johannes]

It's a slightly more abstracted system in which all strongmen are also highly spiritual (Muscle Jesus, anyone? Anyone...?), masked by the fact that classes and such will determine and control how Might is actually brought to bear in a meaningful way. Resolve seems to make good conceptual sense as-is.

It's not a bad system, really, as long as you don't mind the quirk of Might. Saint Schwarzenegger, perhaps? Anybody?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/04/crap-shoot-the-you-testament/