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Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

Unwanted

CyberP

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(*) maybe read the manual next time

The manual never tells you if systems are balanced or not.

Balance is incredibly important in an RPG, and also incredibly tough to pull off without much patching judging by efforts of the past. Every developer tries to achieve balance, and so they should. Nearly all fail to get it just right.
The award for balance goes to Dark Souls I believe, though it's systems aren't considerably complex so it was easier to pull off.

I wish Sawyer luck in achieving balance with PoE in addition to making the systems all-round interesting, which certainly is possible.
 

Gary Indiana

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Sawyer is a goddamned hipster. All pants and no trousers, as they used to say in Bristol. I see it all the time in the art world ; fuckers who can write an essay (and consequently get grants and funding) but have zero end product. Shame he was in charge and not Tim Cain.
 

Jaesun

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I agree with you. Roguey does deserve a tag, although something more customized than fanboy would be more appropriate. "Sawyer Cultist" or "Cult of Sawyer" or something. If anybody wants to volunteer to create one, feel free.

I'm just here to shitpost, put me on ignore.
 

coldcrow

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Replayability = Diversity. Diversity in skill-based systems could be achieved through creating enough unique skills, but even more so if these skills have huge tradeoffs or conflict with eachother. Same could be said for attributes. Like Int > 20 diminishes physical attribs.
 

HiddenX

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(*) maybe read the manual next time

The manual never tells you if systems are balanced or not.

Balance is incredibly important in an RPG, and also incredibly tough to pull off without much patching judging by efforts of the past. Every developer tries to achieve balance, and so they should. Nearly all fail to get it just right.
The award for balance goes to Dark Souls I believe, though it's systems aren't considerably complex so it was easier to pull off.

I wish Sawyer luck in achieving balance with PoE in addition to making the systems all-round interesting, which certainly is possible.

Reading a manual let you create a balanced party that covers most skills and survives the game with a good chance.

If the game combat/trading system/loot is balanced is another matter. It is important, but it should NOT be solved by making all character classes equal in terms of efficiency. Diversity of parties, specialty of characters is the fun in CRPGs.

PS:
If you powerplay a CRPG, you can exploit every CRPG sooner or later,
because the character efficiency is just a function in many variables (attributes, skills, gear, traits, …) with many local maxima.
If you find too many good local maxima for each character the game could be broken (too easy, becomes boring,…).
This can happen in a second or third play-through if you optimize the characters to the already known gameworld and enemies.
Most of the time I don't do that because it spoils the fun for me (unless there is another difficulty level who needs these adjustments)

But if you try to equilize these efficiency curves for all character classes I think you are better off to play an adventure game with no character building at all.

One major principle (and fun) of CRPGs = adjust your characters' (attributes, skills, gear, traits) and find a fitting mix of characters to survive the challenges and quests the game is throwing at you.
 

ZagorTeNej

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I agree with you. Roguey does deserve a tag, although something more customized than fanboy would be more appropriate. "Sawyer Cultist" or "Cult of Sawyer" or something. If anybody wants to volunteer to create one, feel free.

I'm just here to shitpost, put me on ignore.

Because that's gonna upset a poster who one time bragged about how many people have him/her on ignore? Same goes for Saywer's cultist, stalker, pet etc.

Givem him/her an "I support patriarchy" tag and a Witcher 1 sex card avatar instead.
 

Infinitron

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The objective is not to upset him (probably impossible). It's to warn other users of his nature.
 

Zeriel

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If that's the goal, why not just make everyone on the Codex automatically ignore him and just not bother to inform him (or them)?
 

Volrath

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Sawyer is a goddamned hipster. All pants and no trousers, as they used to say in Bristol. I see it all the time in the art world ; fuckers who can write an essay (and consequently get grants and funding) but have zero end product. Shame he was in charge and not Tim Cain.
Tim "Wildstar" Cain?
 
Weasel
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I agree with you. Roguey does deserve a tag, although something more customized than fanboy would be more appropriate. "Sawyer Cultist" or "Cult of Sawyer" or something. If anybody wants to volunteer to create one, feel free.

I might give it a go but I'd first need to confirm some details for the graphics. Anyone know if Sawyer is circumcised?
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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The objective is not to upset him (probably impossible). It's to warn other users of his nature.

At least you fuckers had the courtesy to label me as "possibly retarded".
It should be clear to see that this was in fact entirely unjustified. The codex lost, butthurt ensued and this was the result :smug:
 

Mangoose

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The objective is not to upset him (probably impossible). It's to warn other users of his nature.

At least you fuckers had the courtesy to label me as "possibly retarded".
It should be clear to see that this was in fact entirely unjustified. The codex lost, butthurt ensued and this was the result :smug:
>Replies to a statement not addressed to him
>Thinks other people are butthurt
 

Johannes

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Now, I haven't played the PoE beta. But I've seen the attribute screens which already pretty clearly underline a problem with the game's system.

It's not about whether the stats are competitive vs. each other, or significant enough to alter your playstyle - those numbers can be easily tweaked to reach a reasonable balance.

It's just the core concept that's iffy. Basically you've got Damage Dealing stat, AoE/duration stat, HP stat, Accuracy stat, and so on. These could really be named anything and the description text could say anything, in their core they're still just that. Which is kinda ok from a mechanic perspective, I suppose, but thematically the attributes presented don't really let you realize different character concepts you might have. Does a PoE mage with high Might really feel like a muscular dude? Or just a mage who has high damage spells? Basically the stats feel like very different things depending on which class they're given to.

D&D is simplistic and in some ways just bad, sure, but at least it tells us some things - warriors are strong and tough, and mages are smart, as a rule. Which gives a thematic background into what kind of people would pick which profession. PoE tells us that any kind of person is fit for any profession, only thing that varies is their exact combat role. ToEE implementation (the point buy side of it) was p. good all in all, you had real choices to make. The BG/IWD method was p. pointless of course.



The proper way to come up with an attribute system that doesn't feature easy dump stats, I think, would be to rather give each stat more variables that it affects, rather than reducing each to one or two universal % modifiers. You start by defining, ok we plan on having these base attributes for each character - what should they affect? Strength would affect how heavy armor you can equip (or how fast you get tired in it), how big a bow you can draw, how much HP you have, etc.. These things can be very relevant for a wizard too, actually, at least if you don't enforce strict class restrictions into what kind of armor they can equip, or give them magical blast attacks they can use at any time if they're not casting proper spells. If you want you could also have it affect some part of spellcasting too, like give a minor boost to how quickly you can cast a spell, or how good you are at keeping casting a spell when you take a hit while spellcasting. Or give wizards some self-buff spells that can turn them into serviceable fighters, so that their combat stats can matter more (yet it's still doable to just ignore those spells).

This whole Sawyer philosophy outlined in the article - everything must be simple without many modifiers so that it's easy to balance - is very obviously Dumbing Down. It may be Dumbing Down Done Right, but it's still much worse than a proper, complex RPG system. Proper balance in a game is a great thing, but you mustn't sacrifice complexity for it. You should first make a system that's properly cool and interesting, then when that's lined up, then you balance it to the best of your ability.
 

*-*/\--/\~

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I'd suggest Sawyer visits the nearest store. There, he will be presented with a variety of options, some of which will be (*gasp*) clearly superior to others. It is up to the buyer to judge which quality / price combination suits him, but that is probably more brain usage than Sawyer wants to see in his games.
 

Sceptic

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The objective is not to upset him (probably impossible). It's to warn other users of his nature.
Maybe not posting his shitposting on the front page might've done the job better?

Just sayin'.
 

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