Josh Sawyer Q&A Thread

[Cross]

In Sawyer's balanced utopia, the broken chair leg you use as an improvised weapon during a bar fight is as useful as a holy weapon forged by the gods themselves.

Wait a minute...a system where nobody is better than anybody else and all power is distributed equally? Isn't there a name for that?

And why does it sound so eerily familiar when Sawyer keeps repeating that real balance has never been tried before?

 

[Beastro]

I honestly hate balance. I've found the most entertaining games are the most unbalancednones, especially those where different sides can gain OP advantages on each other and turn the tide so suddenly.

 

[luj1]

I honestly hate balance. I've found the most entertaining games are the most unbalanced ones, especially those where different sides can gain OP advantages on each other and turn the tide so suddenly.

Asymmetry is the lifeblood of games. I think Jarlo said it.

OP skills *should* exist. Weak skills *should* exist. "1-point wonder" type of skills (utility skills) *should* exist, etc.

What makes games fun is so simple, yet some devs vastly overthink and overanalyze this, until they literally go crazy.

 

[REhorror]

I really hate the term "balance" (everything must be viable) in games, it really has taken a dark turn to gaming and really makes games easier as a whole.

Put it on the same as "artificial difficulty", "difficulty spike" and "trial and error".

 

[luj1]

In Sawyer's balanced utopia, the broken chair leg you use as an improvised weapon during a bar fight is as useful as a holy weapon forged by the gods themselves.

Wait a minute...a system where nobody is better than anybody else and all power is distributed equally? Isn't there a name for that?

And why does it sound so eerily familiar when Sawyer keeps repeating that real balance has never been tried before?

Yeah, he is a Californian hipster commie.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

The only good balance is a dead balance.

 

[luj1]

Balance was never important, actually. Tell me which Codex Top 10 CRPG was balanced?

 

[Peachcurl]

Balance was never important, actually. Tell me which Codex Top 10 CRPG was balanced?

There are probably some, if you include the non-rpgs in the top rpg list.

I mean... disco is balanced, right?

 

[processdaemon]

He's going to make his Darklands dream game that will review well and perform well on the game pass and then he'll semi-retire. No one will talk about it, of course, because the gameplay will be like wet newspaper and every character will be a lesbian, but it will be a twitter darling for 2 days.

If he'd just make the lesbians hot I would absolutely pay for Dykelands

 

[Butter]

He's going to make his Darklands dream game that will review well and perform well on the game pass and then he'll semi-retire. No one will talk about it, of course, because the gameplay will be like wet newspaper and every character will be a lesbian, but it will be a twitter darling for 2 days.

If he'd just make the lesbians hot I would absolutely pay for Dykelands

Umm sweatie, attractive women in media are problematic. They perpetuate the idea that humans are supposed to want to reproduce.

 

[Roguey]

Balance was never important, actually. Tell me which Codex Top 10 CRPG was balanced?

Fallout New Vegas

 

[luj1]

Case in point.

 

[REhorror]

Balance was never important, actually. Tell me which Codex Top 10 CRPG was balanced?

Fallout New Vegas

Was it?
I mean I feel OP the moment I pick up a laser rifle.

 

[Roguey]

Was it?
I mean I feel OP the moment I pick up a laser rifle.

On release, a lot of people felt that laser weapons were underpowered. He buffed them. Balance was restored.

 

[Butter]

New Vegas is probably the most balanced game in the top ten. Does anyone praise that game for its balance though? Does anyone really like that energy weapons became available all game instead of being a late game powerhouse?

 

[REhorror]

Was it?
I mean I feel OP the moment I pick up a laser rifle.

On release, a lot of people felt that laser weapons were underpowered. He buffed them. Balance was restored.

I did play with JSawyer mod so maybe....

 

[rubinstein]

New Vegas is probably the most balanced game in the top ten. Does anyone praise that game for its balance though? Does anyone really like that energy weapons became available all game instead of being a late game powerhouse?

fair point, but when i think about it, it is kinda BALANCED by them being extremely low HP in early game. last time i played NV i remember finding a laser RCW in the very second dungeon i cleared. i couldnt have played for more than 3 hours. it was an oddly generous reward for the effort, but it only had like 10% HP and it was worth no more than 100 caps. i can appreciate this.
e: what i want to say is, that it may not impact our opinion here that much, FNV is amazing for many other reasons, true, but a lot of "scrubs" bounced back from ancient fallouts, because of things like energy weapons being useless in the first halves of both fo1 and fo2. they appreciate NV approach to balance, and i can see why.

 

[Infinitron]

New Vegas is probably the most balanced game in the top ten. Does anyone praise that game for its balance though? Does anyone really like that energy weapons became available all game instead of being a late game powerhouse?

The flipside of this is that nobody really cares that much about imbalance either.

So for example, BG2 mage duels were cool because the core fantasy of a mage duel where you progressively strip the enemy's defenses while erecting your own is cool. That concept could be implemented in more or less balanced ways.

In Sawyer's balanced utopia, the broken chair leg you use as an improvised weapon during a bar fight is as useful as a holy weapon forged by the gods themselves.

This is about balance between weapon types, not individual weapons. A broken chair leg would presumably be an early game club.

 

[Cross]

This is about balance between weapon types, not individual weapons. A broken chair leg would presumably be an early game club.

According to Sawyer a club and a mace in AD&D should be ~balanced~ with each other, even though a club is a makeshift weapon (making it basically free) usable by far more classes than the mace.

So for example, BG2 mage duels were cool because the core fantasy of a mage duel where you progressively strip the enemy's defenses while erecting your own is cool. That concept could be implemented in more or less balanced ways.

You mean like this?

https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrored_Image

The Mirror Image equivalent in Pillars doesn't summon any mirror images, it just boosts your defense slightly. Riveting stuff.

That's how almost all the spells in Pillars are designed relative to their D&D counterparts. How would you wage mage duels with such a system? I suppose you could, but it would be rather pointless.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Sawyer probably never has used any weapon in his life and certainly never killed anything. I never realized how spongy bouncy rats were until I tried killing my first few. Enough force and the stop moving. Stabbing though, well…. They scream a lot so you better pin it down the either smash it dead or use a second weapon to finish it off. I’d usually pin one with a spear then get up close and cut its head off or put my blade through its chomping mouth and impale it through said mouth and back of the skull. They stop moving soon and are dead.

Quicker is a club to it assuming you make contact just right and it’ll be bouncing around with its gut crushed. If you manage to break its spine or crush its head then you’re golden and move on.

Axe or sword or machete. Gotta hit it. Ended up with chopped off tails and they get away, gut wounds and they trail off to appear another day dragging parts of their guts. A few lucky beheadings or cut in half but mostly crushed spines. And a lot of blows bounce sending the rat flying in the air. If you’re quick enough you can bat it out of the park for a home run.

I’ve pinned a few a sawed em in half as well. Overall, drowning was the most effective. I imagine the rats in the concrete jungle take a different tactic as stone and concrete can dull or break your blades. Prolly metal baseball bats and hatchets/mauls/hammers might be better.

 

[Artyoan]

'Balance' depends on how smoothed out the edges should be, which is why we endlessly argue about it. If a dev drops the player into an fantasy world and then immediately hands them the Massive Greataxe of Slaughter +10 and it is far and away the best option to use for 3/4 of the game, and nearly any build, then I agree that it needs changing. It will be fun to use for maybe an hour before it gets old and detracts from the game world, even more so if it trivializes difficulty for an extended period. Certain options of skill/spell selection and builds being outsized in how good they are is often a judgement call. It just shouldn't be obvious to most players and some of the edge should be dulled if one particular aspect is too good to the point that it's the only real option.

The problem with Sawyer's approach is that he often makes everything feel ineffectual. It is the same logic that WoW took to class re-design for the sake of raiding. In order to make everyone be within 5% of each other on the dps charts, they butchered distinct class design and gave everyone a similar format and rotation. The end result was to make dev work easier, distinction mattered largely only from aesthetics, and the soul of it all withered away. He dulls nearly every edge and smooths it out too much for my taste.

Even the Dev weapons/armor video that Sawyer links to there cites the difficulty and time consumption in balancing as a reason to make 'kits'.

The best design approach should be to make choices feel distinct in both mechanics and aesthetics. And that means a lot of work, and a great intuitive feel for what is close enough in balance, is required. Devs don't want to do that, or can't get a feel for it, so they design systems without edges and market how you can be anything you want and it will work.

 

[luj1]

The flipside of this is that nobody really cares that much about imbalance either.

Nobody except Sawyer.

 

[0sacred]

Sawyer deserves a special place in hell for taking my dream concept, pirate RPG, and turning it into the gayest, most autistic, most unfun experience ever.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Sawyer completely misunderstands AD&D and RPGs in general. Items don't just exist to have players use them for the purpose of having perfectly balanced combat encounters. They exist because they are a part of a game worlds and need to be included to simulate this game world. This includes fringe uses and some items being outclassed by others. Daggers are almost useless in battle but can be hidden under clothes, Axes are a shitty choice for a warrior but when vikings are raiding player's village it would be useful to know the stats of weapons they're using, low-tier metal armors aren't very useful for experienced players but it's silly to expect all enemy fighters to be able to afford full plate.

 

[Heinrich]

In MTG there's this concept that there need to be Bad Cards in order for there to be Good Cards. It's the same in RPGs. Distinguishing between bad items and good items and bad builds and good builds is a major part of the gameplay and trying to make everything viable and balanced just means spending a lot of effort to essentially cut out content for the player. It's retarded.