Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Roguey]

Pallegina's most memorable moment for me wasn't anything about her personal quest, which was indeed quite bare bones and uninteresting as a conflict, but the angry way she reacted to Hylea when she got to confront her about why she's a birdlike.

She has a giant chip on her shoulder, of course that's going to be polarizing (mostly in favor of not liking her).

The ranger bitch had nothing to do with the story or themes.

What if we can be assured of nothing?

Additionally, as I put it three years ago

The recurring themes I noticed were Learning to Live with Disappointment (awfully meta of them), and that one Rolling Stones song (I saw Woedica at the reception, a glass of wine in her hand...).

 

[Infinitron]

However it started, it always seemed to me like Tyranny's world ended up being shaped by Brian Heins most of all. All that stuff about bronze weapons being technically better than iron - felt like a guy geeking out about the Deep Lore he'd spent so much time on.

 

[Tenebris]

Like what you did with the Souls in the end of the first game. If I recall right the only options that had any even if minor affect was Galawain

In what way?

Everyone from the Dyrwood gets +5 hp if you took his ending. That's it.

Remember Edér’s brother?

Them not following up Edér's personal quest in Deadfire was so stupid. The guy meets Eothas and even Waidwen himself and he doesn't think to ask about his brother? The very thing he was sperging out about in the first game?

 

[Desiderius]

Both Durance and GM are overwritten and purple

I agree it was practically impossible to read all that GM and Durance dialogue and pay attention to it, most of it was just lunatic ramblings

Beast, Durance, Harrim. I end up skipping all their dialogue but love their characters. GM, well, Cipher is OP.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Writing is writing both in a novel and in a game. What I'm saying could even be applied to the rest of the artists from other aspects such as music and the visuals. If you reduce the writing, it's like telling the artist not to put so many details in his drawings or telling the musician not to work so much on his pieces.

Collaborative writing is not like individual writing. It's like playing in a band as opposed to singing solo. You can't just drag in a church organ and start playing a war requiem if everybody else is playing Dixieland.

And is curious that you think otherwise because you said in the beginning of this thread that Sawyer should make the game he want to make, just like the guys of Disco Elysium.

What does that have to do with anything? Obviously Chris also should do what he loves. That does not mean (1) agreeing to work on a project he doesn't love and then (2) locking yourself in your office to do your writing all by your lonesome and refusing to collaborate with the others working on it.

Someone could agree with you if everyone in the game was well written and masterfully woven into the main quest and Avellone shat the bed, but he actually wrote 2 of the 3 companions I somewhat cared about in the main game. Look at Aloth, he was a part of the main antagonist faction in the game, and all that came out of it was that he was mopey about it in one conversation. Wow. Palegina was writing by the Sawyer who was in charge, and obviously cooperated with everyone, it didn't help him make her any interesting. So perhaps shutting yourself in a room isn't that bad?

 

[Desiderius]

Working on a game isn't like writing the Great American Novel. You have to collaborate, with the other writers, the artists, the level designers, the programmers. If you don't you end up with a clusterfuck.

This was a problem with Pillars generally -- it has a lot of bits that fit together poorly, Tim's stronghold is another prominent example. But at least the other characters do cohere with each other and the story, such as it is.

No, it acktually is. Games are our literature, for better or for worse, and great lit isn't written by committee. Trying to do so is a guarantee that it will fit together poorly.

 

[Prime Junta]

No, acktually is. Games are our literature, for better or for worse, and great lit isn't written by committee. Trying to do so is a guarantee that it will fit together poorly.

Then we need to settle for much smaller games than we have now. There's no way something as big as, say, either of the Pillars games could have been written by a single author.

Also collaborative literature is also literature, and it does not necessarily mean writing by committee. Nor does it mean the strict vertical command structures Chris so loves. Collaboration really is a thing. Collaborative writing is a little bit like playing a tabletop RPG – sure, there's a DM, but the players riff off him and each other. Imagine something like that, except you're producing a text rather than an experience.

 

[biggestboss]

And Sagani for me was a close second. Shove your imaginary agenda up your ass.

I used the agenda button because you listed a PFK character and are a known PFK fan. If I could have applied a second button to your post, it would be Funny or Agree.

 

[BlackGoat]

- He took our money to make the game that HE likes, not what they promised and what people wanted

I don't think he does like Pillars, tho, even with all the Sawyerisms. The whole problem with PoE is that it's made by someone who doesn't like this type of game and doesn't get what people like about it, so he's flailing about, trying to intellectually understand something that he should be feeling viscerally.

 

[Prime Junta]

He took our money to make the game that HE likes, not what they promised and what people wanted

He has repeatedly emphasised that Pillars is not the game he wanted to make, he made what he thought he promised and what he thought people wanted.

- He prefers TB combat
- He prefers classless systems
- He prefers low-fantasy, grounded, historical or history-based settings

If he had made his dream game even vaguely to scratch that itch, it would've been a Darklands spiritual successor, not an IE one.

 

[Desiderius]

No, acktually is. Games are our literature, for better or for worse, and great lit isn't written by committee. Trying to do so is a guarantee that it will fit together poorly.

Then we need to settle for much smaller games than we have now. There's no way something as big as, say, either of the Pillars games could have been written by a single author.

Also collaborative literature is also literature, and it does not necessarily mean writing by committee. Nor does it mean the strict vertical command structures Chris so loves. Collaboration really is a thing. Collaborative writing is a little bit like playing a tabletop RPG – sure, there's a DM, but the players riff off him and each other. Imagine something like that, except you're producing a text rather than an experience.

Well said. You've convinced me. The KJV was written by committee after all. Everyone does need to be pulling toward a common goal to make that work. Wonder how much the Avellone drama undermined the morale of the whole team?

 

[Desiderius]

And Sagani for me was a close second. Shove your imaginary agenda up your ass.

I used the agenda button because you listed a PFK character and are a known PFK fan. If I could have applied a second button to your post, it would be Funny or Agree.

Sry, will delete. Tend to be a foolish in-rusher.

 

[biggestboss]

- He prefers TB combat
- He prefers classless systems
- He prefers low-fantasy, grounded, historical or history-based settings

I would love this game if it existed. Sawyer would have me at TB and classless alone.

 

[Trashos]

The 3 characters I know that Josh has written are Pallegina, New Vegas Chief Hanlon, and Honest Hearts Joshua Graham.

Hanlon is boring, goes on forever, and we even get a choice to call out how boring he is. Terrible. Hanlon should probably have been written by Gonzalez or MCA.

Pallegina was so godawfully written that I felt bad for the actress who voiced her.

Joshua Graham was excellent. My theory is that Josh was reading Gonzalez' Survivalist story during that time (also included in Honest Hearts), and some of Gonzalez' talent rubbed off on him. Didn't last longer than that, however.

 

[biggestboss]

Sry, will delete. Tend to be a foolish in-rusher.

You don't have to. I think you're a great poster and human.

 

[Prime Junta]

The 3 characters I know that Josh has written are Pallegina, New Vegas Chief Hanlon, and Honest Hearts Joshua Graham.

Also Arcade Gannon.

 

[Prime Junta]

I would love this game if it existed. Sawyer would have me at TB and classless alone.

Same, I would totally play Fuck You Suck My Dick Josh Sawyer's Dream Game, as he described it during Pillars development. I would probably even like it.

 

[Desiderius]

Sagani's story is anti-Poz, pro-trad. Trad is about preserving the chain of being across generations. Even Animals (and Vegetables!) do that. The Poz is pro-Mineral.

Plus I like pew-pew + pet. Maya is OP/bearable, but I'd rather have Sagani.

 

[vortex]

I wonder what is aftermath of Sawyer's reflection. What direction will Pillars 3 go?

 

[Prime Junta]

Sagani is a massively underrated companion. Her personality, background, quest, and story all made sense, were relatable, and communicated interesting things about the setting without going full loredump. Excellent VA too. I'm not sure why people don't like her, maybe because she's fairly low-key and a woman but not fuckable, which causes brain short circuits in certain quarters.

(Also mechanically she's a brute, give her Persistence and spec Itumaak with the bloodthirsty perk and they just melt mobs.)

 

[S.torch]

Obviously Chris also should do what he loves.

You said that, but then you support the cut of content and say that he shouldn't lock himself in a room. Maybe thats the way he write the best, maybe he write like that.

 

[Butter]

I wonder what is aftermath of Sawyer's reflection. What direction will Pillars 3 go?

I'd be really surprised if he ends up lead designer on it.

 

[Butter]

Sagani is a massively underrated companion. Her personality, background, quest, and story all made sense, were relatable, and communicated interesting things about the setting without going full loredump. Excellent VA too.

Her entire dialogue is lore dumps about a place that you never visit and that has no relevance to the story.

 

[Prime Junta]

I'd be really surprised if he ends up lead designer on it.

If he does it would be a mega disaster.

I think Deadfire broke him. You need a certain amount of cockiness to be able to design. Deadfire failed even though (he thinks) he did everything right and (he observes) it got good reviews and pretty positive player feedback too. How is he going to be able to design anything with that doubt continuously eating away at him? If he's ever to make another game again, he really will need to somehow ditch his whole schtick about trying to understand his 'customers' and make a 'product' that 'meets their wishes,' and make that motherfucking FYSMDJSDG thingy.

 

[Trashos]

The 3 characters I know that Josh has written are Pallegina, New Vegas Chief Hanlon, and Honest Hearts Joshua Graham.

Also Arcade Gannon.

Ah, yes, Arcade was decent. He was gay but I didn't mind it at all. Good work there.