People News Josh Sawyer says he failed with Pillars II, would direct a third game if he can figure out why

[Dr Schultz]

Pharaon? Jesus fucking

Pharaon is a good king

Pharaon? That name is some seriously queer shit.

Sounds like someone just changed a few letters in pharaoh. Maybe the reason the game failed was because the designer was an uncreative bloodsucker, extracting his ideas from random unconnected bits of popular history until it was a lifeless husk, like some kind of brain-damaged fampyr

Like so many things in Pillars it's literary just pharaoh in a different language (french).

So, yes. It is an actual word. It's also just language *autism*.

An archaic english form (and a typo), acutally:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pharaon

Funny anyway methinks

 

[Roguey]

But is 500 players really a high number?

It and D:OS EE remain the most popular of the Kickstarter wave.

 

[hexer]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

 

[Dr Schultz]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

Good to know (and interesting link by the way). But, your original post seems to imply the gods of Eora should be archived as a plot element because POE I established that are man made.


I don’t’ think this is the case, given the way the gods are intended in this particular setting.

 

[Mortmal]

Sherry, I thought you were just a troll, but you are completely retarded. I don't mean to be rude.

Its ok, if one day josh come here he needs someone friendly to welcome him in . Josh and the mouse can do very well along, just need some duct tape cause of the pressure, same for hamsters a friend told me.

 

[molotov.]

Plus, the cookie-cutter "+1.5% for 3 seconds" bullshit...

Generally Pillars is ridden with micro stat gains that give no sense of growth. It would have made sense in a Diablo game where progression is fast and max level is 100, not 10. Don't need 20 years of tabletop experience to understand, just common sense.

In either case, they gave up on adressing these oversights in core systems with the sequel and focused entirely on eye-candy and marginal features as their main selling point.

I have to agree with that. Not that there wasn't a progression, but it was almost non noticeable. The only good thing about this was the impact of getting a new item, e.g.: getting Stormcaller or Persistence was a huge upgrade and you could see the difference in that very moment, but... cool items were few and far between.

 

[jungl]

The original audience for isometric rtwp games didn't play these games for a shit ton of exposition writing and lore tid bits this is also why tyranny failed also. Baldurs gate, icewind dale fallout 1 had very simple easy stories to follow and didn't bombard the player from the get go with lore.

Being bombarded with lore is the LAST thing the OG audience of these type of games wants to see. I wouldn't say kingmaker a better game reason alone it sold more because DnD brand.

 

[Jimmious]

We have talked about this endlessly in here.. But I will sum up my opinion to the following:

Promise spiritual successor to the BGs ->
Create everything from scratch (setting, systems, ruleset, story, characters) ->
Obviously fail compared to tried and true settings and rulesets etc ->
In addition improve game with payed DLCs which alienate some player base (not everybody wants to pay for 2-3 extra DLCs or sth) ->
And then release (improved) sequel to all of...that, in an even more "alien" setting with less marketing.

Well.. It failed economically.
I still don't get why they tried to reinvent the wheel in every possible aspect. P:K did so well simply from the ruleset and the setting. Imo the actual game is worse than Deadfire in every other aspect... apart from the gameplay itself

 

[Lady_Error]

Plus, the cookie-cutter "+1.5% for 3 seconds" bullshit...

Generally Pillars is ridden with micro stat gains that give no sense of growth. It would have made sense in a Diablo game where progression is fast and max level is 100, not 10. Don't need 20 years of tabletop experience to understand, just common sense.

In either case, they gave up on adressing these oversights in core systems with the sequel and focused entirely on eye-candy and marginal features as their main selling point.

I have to agree with that. Not that there wasn't a progression, but it was almost non noticeable. The only good thing about this was the impact of getting a new item, e.g.: getting Stormcaller or Persistence was a huge upgrade and you could see the difference in that very moment, but... cool items were few and far between.

Itemization in Deadfire was actually pretty good and there were tons of unique items that made an impact.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

Good to know (and interesting link by the way). But, your original post seems to imply the gods of Eora should be archived as a plot element because POE I established that are man made.


I don’t’ think this is the case, given the way the gods are intended in this particular setting.

I don't see that implication from him at all, if anything I see that implication from the game itself. At every turn they smack you with "THE GODS AREN'T REAL! THEY'RE MANMADE!", this is usually followed by the gods performing sort of godlike action.

 

[Lady_Error]

The gods are individuals from an ancient race that became very powerful. They are man-made only in the sense that they were regular people at some point.

 

[Mortmal]

The gods are individuals from an ancient race that became very powerful. They are man-made only in the sense that they were regular people at some point.

yeah and they did so there was not even a secret left in their setting by the end of POE...Which made POE2 story even less engaging, plot was without surprises at all , no mysteries, story telling sucks.

 

[Dr Schultz]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

Good to know (and interesting link by the way). But, your original post seems to imply the gods of Eora should be archived as a plot element because POE I established that are man made.


I don’t’ think this is the case, given the way the gods are intended in this particular setting.

I don't see that implication from him at all, if anything I see that implication from the game itself. At every turn they smack you with "THE GODS AREN'T REAL! THEY'RE MANMADE!", this is usually followed by the gods doing performing sort of godlike action.

Well, what both games were trying to achieve with their main plot was asking the player if he/she is more willing to accept a useful lie (the origin of the gods) or to denounce the truth no matter the cost.

At least this how I’ve understood them.


Of course, we can discuss about how successful they were in this attempt, but the attempt to me is pretty clear…

 

[rusty_shackleford]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

Good to know (and interesting link by the way). But, your original post seems to imply the gods of Eora should be archived as a plot element because POE I established that are man made.


I don’t’ think this is the case, given the way the gods are intended in this particular setting.

I don't see that implication from him at all, if anything I see that implication from the game itself. At every turn they smack you with "THE GODS AREN'T REAL! THEY'RE MANMADE!", this is usually followed by the gods doing performing sort of godlike action.

Well, what both games were trying to achieve with their main plot was asking the player if he/she is more willing to accept a useful lie (the origin of the gods) or to denounce the truth no matter the cost.

At least this how I’ve understood them.


Of course, we can discuss about how successful they were in this attempt, but the attempt to me is pretty clear…

But it's not a lie, they're gods. There is no rule saying that a god cannot be manmade or formerly be a mortal. Hell, PoE is based on a setting that has dozens of mortals-turned-deities, and deities draw their entire power from mortals simply believing in them.
Also, Rymrgand most likely wasn't even made the same way(as is heavily hinted, and the original writer of Rymrgand stated as much), yet he is treated by the gods just like any of the others nor does he seem to imply he's any more of a god than they are.

 

[Dr Schultz]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

Good to know (and interesting link by the way). But, your original post seems to imply the gods of Eora should be archived as a plot element because POE I established that are man made.


I don’t’ think this is the case, given the way the gods are intended in this particular setting.

I don't see that implication from him at all, if anything I see that implication from the game itself. At every turn they smack you with "THE GODS AREN'T REAL! THEY'RE MANMADE!", this is usually followed by the gods doing performing sort of godlike action.

Well, what both games were trying to achieve with their main plot was asking the player if he/she is more willing to accept a useful lie (the origin of the gods) or to denounce the truth no matter the cost.

At least this how I’ve understood them.


Of course, we can discuss about how successful they were in this attempt, but the attempt to me is pretty clear…

But it's not a lie, they're gods. There is no rule saying that a god cannot be manmade or formerly be a mortal. Hell, PoE is based on a setting that has dozens of mortals-turned-deities, and deities draw their entire power from mortals simply believing in them.
Also, Rymrgand most likely wasn't even made the same way(as is heavily hinted, and the original writer of Rymrgand stated as much), yet he is treated by the gods just like any of the others nor does he seem to imply he's any more of a god than they are.

The lie is not the gods themselves. It's what people believe they are. The question posed by the game is: "Is it better to tell the people that the gods are not what they believe (depriving said gods of their power in the process) or to endorse the lie because an ordered world is better thnn the alternative".

It's like picking between the Spanish Inquisition and the Religious Wars.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The lie is not the gods themselves. It's what people believe they are. The question posed by the game is: "Is it better to tell to the people that the gods are not what they believe (depriving said gods of their power in the process) or to endorse the lie because an ordered world is better then the alternative".

It's like picking between the Spanish Inquisition and the Religius Wars.

How exactly would that deprive them of their power?

 

[Dr Schultz]

The lie is not the gods themselves. It's what people believe they are. The question posed by the game is: "Is it better to tell to the people that the gods are not what they believe (depriving said gods of their power in the process) or to endorse the lie because an ordered world is better then the alternative".

It's like picking between the Spanish Inquisition and the Religius Wars.

How exactly would that deprive them of their power?

Well, it seems pretty clear in the game that the gods draw their strength from people's believe and people follow the gods because they believe they are the only true gods. That's why Thaos tryed to keep the secret at all cost. right?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The lie is not the gods themselves. It's what people believe they are. The question posed by the game is: "Is it better to tell to the people that the gods are not what they believe (depriving said gods of their power in the process) or to endorse the lie because an ordered world is better then the alternative".

It's like picking between the Spanish Inquisition and the Religius Wars.

How exactly would that deprive them of their power?

Well, it seems pretty clear in the game that the gods draw their strength from people's believe and people follow the gods because they believe they are the only true gods. That's why Thaos tryed to keep the secret at all cost. right?

Wasn't that the entire point of the Engwithan machines?

 

[undecaf]

I think the postbellum rise of Chicago is really fascinating, too, and I’m interested in some sort of game focusing on paranormal investigators during the height of American Spiritualism.

I’d love to make a medieval/early modern European murder mystery in the vein of Name of the Rose or Cadfael.

These are about the only games he's interested in making that I might have any interest in.

Maybe take a good brain vacation and perhaps some more interesting ideas rise up...

 

[Lone Wolf]

Speaking of Josh, specifically, it is clear that he is a clever man. Pretty well read and would no doubt make for a good chat about matters historical, sociological and philosophical.

The thing is, though, the games he makes shouldn't be vehicles for 'look how clever I am and how much I know' moments. To belabor the earlier point: Irenicus was a relatively simple villain at first glance. His motivation was hinted at during the prologue, and was then spelled out later. Let's sum him up in a sentence:

Vengeful, broken, angry man does mad things for power

The BG2 storyline has you follow in his wake and pick up the pieces he leaves behind, with your paths intersecting both directly (Prologue, Yoshimo/the Asylum) and indirectly (Bodhi, the Dark Elves) before the final confrontation. Each of those intersections gives you a bit more about who this villain is and what he wants.

Now try Thaos... I got through three quarters of POE1, without knowing anything about him beyond 'he can possess bodies' and 'he's old'. That's bullshit. Seriously, though, that's bullshit.

Then we get POE2, and you're conversing with the 'villain' from almost the get-go. Grand. Unfortunately, said villain is also essentially removed from the actual story until its very ending, at which point he is - of course - a plot device. Where's the satisfaction? There's nothing personal (or even really philosophical) in this. Just lame. POE1/2 take care to notice all the trees, and miss the forest entire.

 

[Beastro]

would direct a third game if he can figure out why

Embrace the imbalance!

Embrace it!!!

 

[Desolate Dancer]

Why can't he just stop?!

 

[Roguey]

The original audience for isometric rtwp games didn't play these games for a shit ton of exposition writing and lore tid bits this is also why tyranny failed also. Baldurs gate, icewind dale fallout 1 had very simple easy stories to follow and didn't bombard the player from the get go with lore.

Being bombarded with lore is the LAST thing the OG audience of these type of games wants to see. I wouldn't say kingmaker a better game reason alone it sold more because DnD brand.

The lore was there, it just happened to be confined in a bunch of books.

 

[Robert Erick]

Hopefully Deadfire succeeds in the only area that matters: Killing the Pillars of Eternity franchise.

 

[jac8awol]

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

You talk about me like you know me personally.
I'm a chemist and have studied theology and philosophy at a university so I have a MUCH broader world-view than the one you describe.
The work that most influenced me is CTMU.

Good to know (and interesting link by the way). But, your original post seems to imply the gods of Eora should be archived as a plot element because POE I established that are man made.


I don’t’ think this is the case, given the way the gods are intended in this particular setting.

The way the gods are handled in PoE lacks consistency. Like others have said, there's total dissonance regarding the deific and atheistic. Leaden Key's major motivation is keeping the secret that the gods are a mortal construct. Why? Because they know that the 'gods' will lose power/ be detroyed if people realize they're manmade. Seems like a very Abrahamic stance right there.

And then when you finally learn that secret, defeat Thaos and essentially have the gods at your mercy.... the 2nd game comes along and resets all of that, goes back to gods being sacred cows, and takes away your agency.

TLDR: If gods can be made, they can be unmade. Lookin at you, Eothas.