People News Josh Sawyer says he failed with Pillars II, would direct a third game if he can figure out why

[Mortmal]

Man, things like this are always painful to read. Thankfully they have Microsoft backing them up but it sucks to have a game do so poorly with such high ratings.

It got high ratings cause people who were satisfied by POE bought the second one, obviously not enough people. The hype was gone POE was supposed to be baldur's gate spiritual heir and was nothing close . Dont underestimate the hype, legend of grimrock sold a lot too, but the sequel crashed while being a superior game.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I think The Outer Worlds proves that gameplay, past a certain watermark, plays only a small part in sales for Obsidian games. The brand is well established at this point, so there is a sizable cult of fans. It is not like a big marketing campaign is affordable. All products are made for an audience in stable numbers for foreseeable future at least. It is just a matter of production money. Investing in the game itself past the bare minimum is unwise for the studio.

Josh's and Obsidian's big mistake is believing Deadfire would have better sales and reach a larger audiences than the first. It was by no means poorly received. Even elephant sized studios are often in the blind about the market, so it isn't a rare event. Josh do not need to beat himself up for being an idiot for once. He do realize that projects with a smaller production and more experimentation space fit him more, that is good for him.

Outer Worlds was the exception, not the rule.
It managed to ride on the back of a massive Bethesda hatewave as a "FNV-like" game(also helps that it has the same branding as FNV even though most of the devs are different,) and Bethesda managed to piss their fans off massively just a couple days before it released.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Chris Avellone should have directed PoE. Josh Sawyer should have directed employees to the parking lot.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Hmm, he considers game journalists 'professional criticism' and he seems to value their feedback above core audience. He puzzles over disparity between writer reviews and sales while actively minimizing the quality of feedback by assigning biases to gamer feedback (RTWP/TB zealotry for instance).

Enjoy not knowing what the issue is.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Outer Worlds was the exception, not the rule.
It managed to ride on the back of a massive Bethesda hatewave as a "FNV-like" game(also helps that it has the same branding as FNV even though most of the devs are different,) and Bethesda managed to piss their fans off massively just a couple days before it released.

All this stuff about TOW being a fluke because people were just pissed at Bethesda seems to miss the point. After all, Bethesda games sell like crazy despite having garbage gameplay and unengaging stories. If the Bethesda hate train exists it’s because there’s a huge market for this stuff.

 

[Lacrymas]

His ideas for new games sound cool, but he needs someone to bring him back on the right track when he starts listening to journos and the jesters at Something Awful. Hot take: PoE failed because Sawyer stopped visiting/posting on the Codex.

 

[vortex]

Hot take: Deadfire failed because all players out of the core audience were playing Sea of Thieves, another pirate game.

 

[Bibbimbop]

Name of the Rose-style mystery (I bought that book on Josh' recommendation)

Great. Now I can't even read Umberto Eco anymore, because Josh has unleashed his fanboys on Eco's works. Let the Balancening commence.

 

[Artyoan]

I would say the pirate setting being the dominant theme instead of additional one, the continued/unremarkable Watcher protagonist, and the need to play back through a 100+ hour game to remember what even happened in the prior game were all potential negatives known before a purchase is necessary. Past that the game felt like an entirely different world that was more humorous and less sincere. Even returning characters had different personalities.

There was also some nasty bugs right at release like importation of some decisions being wrong for two weeks.

 

[The Bishop]

And I would be interested in directing Pillars 3 if I can figure out how to make it something I would enjoy that there’s an audience for.

This basically confirms my previous suspicion. Trying to make a game that is fun for others but not for you is enormously difficult task. It's like tasking a blind to make a beautiful painting. Game development is hard enough already without trying to figure out all the self contradictory feedback on what people like and don't like, because in the end of the day nobody knows what they want until you make it and give it to them.

I remember being annoyed with Obsidian for constantly quoting reviews and sales of PoE as the ultimate measure of quality. As if they can't just look and see if the game turned out well or not. Oh yeah, they actually can't.

 

[abnaxus]

I'm sure he'll get it right next time.

 

[Caca from Neketaka]

When I look at what bothered me about playthrough of both games, whether it was the first one, or the sequel, in both RTWP and also turn-based, was that i just ended up using the same attacks, spells and strategies in about every fight, which got really tedious. Maybe that was my fault, too low diff level ?

 

[Fenix]

Final hot take: PoE failed because it was SHIT game, and PoE2 failed financially because also was SHIT game and hype was gone and buyers knew what to expect already.

 

[luj1]

"Josh Sawyer admits... "
"Josh Sawyer understands... "
"Josh Sawyer failed... "
"Failure of Pillars... "

Josh is showing that he is a sore loser. Going around expos like a travelling beggar, trying to portray Deadfire's failure as something mysterious and hoping someone will notice him.

He should man up and accept responsibility.

 

[Infinitron]

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...-his-failure-with-pillars-of-eternity.130567/

the quality of the game is my responsibility, so if it's really that bad, it's my fault

 

[Darkzone]

Normies want high fantasy.

Dude, the Kickstarter made it pretty clear they were going for a medieval high fantasy setting, instead we got....... renaissance scientific high fantasy with guns and cannons? They tried way too hard to be "original" and their new lore sucked, PoE would of been better if they were just unashamed Tolkien-esque fantasy. Same reason Torment Numenera failed, some weirdo setting no one cares about.

It is highly probable that normies, that make up most of the computer gamers, want a medieval high fantasy setting ( Tolkienesque ), which they are familiar with. And overall i would agree that this is the reason why most of the RPGs are Tolkienesque.
But Numenera failed also due to other more hard reasons than this given.

 

[MRY]

a game about running a bike shop in Chicago. ... the postbellum rise of Chicago ... focusing on paranormal investigators during the height of American Spiritualism. ... a medieval/early modern European murder mystery in the vein of Name of the Rose or Cadfael

 

[hexer]

It's due time for Josh to fire up NWN2 toolset and finish that Black Hound mod

 

[Tweed]

If only he had balanced more...

 

[Lone Wolf]

There are a few different types of gamers. You've got the people who see games as skill puzzles, to be figured out and overcome. Then you've got the people who treat them as optimization engines. Finally, you've got people who are being sold a fantasy; whether it's a power fantasy, or a particular type of story.

Most games combine these different frameworks, to an extent. Take Diablo, for instance; you've got an optimization engine selling a Gothic power fantasy. It sold well, because it tapped into the large number of people who wanted to watch their characters get stronger through shinier items, while killing off the hordes of hell. On the other hand, Dark Souls marries a skill puzzle system with a similarly Gothic vibe (albeit much weirder). Both games work, sold incredibly well and found an audience that helped spawn franchises.

What sets them apart from POE2? Well, what's the POE equivalent to the above? It's not really a skill puzzle of any note (that's not to say it requires no skill, but that skill is not a primary focus). It's not much of an optimization engine. We're left with the fantasy component. What's the fantasy being sold? It's not high seas piracy, because the game doesn't even nudge you in that direction. It's not Medieval fantasy. It's not even exploration, as the overworld's systems aren't built for depth, and the actual locations are too small and dense to be about exploring the unknown.

There's a convoluted background that sets up a philosophical meander through the themes of destiny and the nature of the wheel. But that's essentially it.

The player is presented with a playground that doesn't know what it wants to be. Ultimately, it tries too hard to be clever and nuanced. It forgets what made its spiritual predecessors great.

BG2 is a simple story of the player character being caught up in the mad ambition of an evil (tragically evil, but evil) sorcerer. Its riffs on destiny and choice are presented simply and clearly. It's a power high fantasy, with the PC gradually embracing Godhood. The tone is 'Epic Exploration Fantasy', through and through. Sound, music, presentation, art, themes and gameplay all align to that end. It asks some deeper questions, but in hushed tones. Those questions aren't the emphasis.

POE2 apes BG2, but in a way that shows a profound lack of understanding about what made BG2 the game it is/was.

 

[Sherry]

Hi.

gosh. Gosh. GOSH!

It has not even been a full year for you, and here you are ranting and raving like you have sat on the same stool, in the same bar, where you think everyone knows your name and everyone is the same.

This is a long sentence that barely says anything, much like DEADFIRE. How did any of the lore get stuck with you, when almost ALL of it is dumped in cutscenes or books/lore dumps?

Gosh! Lore dumps? I am happy to discuss Durance or Grieving Mother with their pretentious writing. It sounds like we agree though; you don't care for lore dumps, and neither do I. Finding information in books or in item descriptions which flesh out the world, that's a wonderful bonus, but not in character dialog. The two examples of these characters are good examples of what not to do to a player.

Items in Pillars of Eternity and in DEADFIRE truly expand on the lore of the world, just as it did in Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms world. It helped design a reality for the characters we play, give breath to the world in which we explore. Josh did a fantastic job in presenting us with this information through the books and magical items we come to find, just like in previous versions of games we have all enjoyed. This it the medium to share information, to allow the player to experience and resolve on their own time. This is not dumped upon us in conversations where we cannot exit, are forced to press 1 to continue, or spacebar for the next line of dialog. It's presented to us to enjoy in our own time. Within a tavern, or an inn, or perhaps on the road next to that campfire we just made. Items and books have always, and will continue, to provide much needed information to any role-playing game. Shame it is something you do not realize.

How on earth did you get a monocle?

I believe it was a sexual role-play comment on Divinity Original Sin 2 with that Undead character trying to sex-up the player, along the lines of wanting to be boned.

It's yet another example of poor writing.

Good day to you. Do not friend me.

Thanks,
Sherry

 

[Wizfall]

The gameplay except for the skills/per encounter design (very bad in a party based RtwP game imo) was good and the character system too and the reason why i played PoE1 a lot.
Combat was fine and quite fun with interesting combo to find.

But the story was awful to keep your interested and i could never get to the god/soul thing, major failure here. Could not remember a single character too not even the name if the main vilain.
The only quality of the writing is that it was not stupid and quite realistic but again completely uninteresting.
Setting mechanic wise is great ( "arcanum" setting except for the awful soul/god thing) but the lore once again was a awfully boring.

The exploration from a mechanical point was like in Baldur Gate and it's a very good mechanic .
But again not a single place original or surprising that stand out, only boring place to go (nice graphix though) without almost any kind of atmosphere.
In Baldur gate 2 i can remember so many maps/buildings/details/realms/strange mechanics (from very small to very big) that were amazing and above all very often very surprising/unsuspected/original (the initial "iranicus dungeons" was awesome despite me playing it so many time i can't stomach it anymore, the circus, the aktala sewer with the old city/beholder quest, the mage sphere, the whole Underdark, the city of the elves, the lich lair, small captivating/aliien environment at every step).

Bad story and narrative/boring setting/liack of originality in the environment make me not buy PoE2 int he end.

 

[The_Mask]

I am happy to discuss Durance or Grieving Mother with their pretentious writing.

Please do. And you need to write a full well-written article about how Chris Avellone came across as pretentious to you, because it sounds like you're full of too much lemon.

It sounds like we agree though; you don't care for lore dumps, and neither do I. Finding information in books or in item descriptions which flesh out the world, that's a wonderful bonus, but not in character dialog.

There is a splinter that always troubles me, a faint speck of dust at the corner of my eye when I engage in a conversation with people like yourself - and so I pose a question - which informed the world more to you: the endless insipid train of words you read OR the fact that in WM ep. 2, there's a fucking idiot with a pickaxe in front of Durgan's Battery, toiling at what 20h worth of gameplay were used to frame - the fact that those walls cannot be torn (the exception being a song - cantec is song in Romanian - but I'm sure you already knew this, right?)

Items in Pillars of Eternity and in DEADFIRE truly expand on the lore of the world

I disagree for PoE 1, except maybe this little spear. Ironically, we find out from the dev commentary, that a brilliant mind, moved elsewhere had to do with that. No one that really stuck with the team. Sad.
Oh and soul-bound items were for paying customers only - don't get me started. Herp, derp.
PoE2 solved the issue, I agree on that point.

[...]books have always, and will continue, to provide much needed information to any role-playing game. Shame it is something you do not realize.

Borken record you've heard before: I'm playing a videogame. Sawyer should suck on a kilo of lemons with his books.

I believe it was a sexual role-play comment on Divinity Original Sin 2 with that Undead character trying to sex-up the player, along the lines of wanting to be boned.

Cheers.

Spoiler

Good day to you. Do not friend me.

Sure. As a rule of life, I don't befriend people that try very hard to keep living in their own little bubble. You know, that bubble where floating things whisper how great Sawyer is.

...

Bye,

Sorin, the one who wears a mask.

 

[Trashos]

Sherry, I thought you were just a troll, but you are completely retarded. I don't mean to be rude.

 

[thesecret1]

Don't know about others, but for me, the first PoE was so boring that I couldn't be motivated to even consider playing the sequel. I suspect that might have been a part of it in general as well. When you make a shit game, people don't KNOW it's shit until after they buy it for the most part. And so the shittiness of the game shows itself in the sales of the sequel.