People News Josh Sawyer says he failed with Pillars II, would direct a third game if he can figure out why

[Darkforge]

A couple of reasons spring to mind.

1. POE1 was a boring slog, that did not satisfy the nostalgia pangs their kickstarter push evoked.
2. People in general are starting to realize RTWP is fucking awful.
3. Obsidian especially with the Outer worlds is showing their "wokeness". (another game successful probably only due to people craving of a decent "fallout" game.) This ideology and writing it manifests is not what the demographic for gaming wants. It's lazy, banal and boring. It makes my penis soft... It should make yours too.

 

[luj1]

Scenario #1 - Josh really, genuinely, doesn't have a clue why something he designed is good or bad. Which is frankly embarrassing after decades of system experience.

Scenario #2 - Josh knows, like any normal person, that poor sales of the sequel are the result of people not being hugely impressed by the first game. He is travelling from expo to expo like a beggar, trying to mystify Deadfire's failure in a desperate effort to stay relevant.

One thing is for certain, dude is a marginal persona.

 

[Lady_Error]

POE1 vanilla wasn't good, which doomed POE2 to low sales numbers. There's your main reason.

Plus, the cookie-cutter "+1.5% for 3 seconds" bullshit instead of hard counters is what made the combat worse than in the IE games. Best example: the awesome mage battles with clearcut rock-scissor-paper mechanics. POE never came close to that.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Josh Sawyer should do "some" meditation to gain clarity of mind.

 

[Serious_Business]

Ahh yes the sweet suffering of the weak, the indignity of a crumbling life. I will not be satisfied until this man is crying on camera. Keep on tossing the shit at him men, keep doing it

Josh Sawyer commits suicide

I SAID KEEP HITTING HIM TO THE END, MUTILATE HIS CORPSE, SHOW I

Hi.

Gosh Josh!

Pillars of Eternity was superb and I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate all the hard work that went into it and how much I enjoyed exploring a whole new world okay? So I would certainly continue creating in the world because it so already so well fleshed out with history you can use as a backdrop to Pillars of Eternity 3 just have it start a new story with what happened in Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire as part of the lore you could even read the player's save game from the end of Deadfire and create blurbs they can hear about of their deeds from a previous character while exploring a whole new part of the world with a new character and a new story it would be wonderful to be able to go back and experience it because so much hard work went into it with the item descriptions you wrote it is just a real good job you put forth despite the sales not doing well for Obsidian or you second guessing yourself now and your career path you made me a fan from what you created and would support yet another game set in this setting.

Thanks,
Sherry

Gosh Sherry!

I thank you for your extremely long sentence. It brings me joy to read it even though it's very long and painful to read. Everything has been painful lately and I'm sorry for it. Next time I'll do better. It's a learning experience. I'll get a new tattoo out of it. This is what my mom used to say. I think it'll be about Deadfire. The tattoo, I mean, not my mom. Well that being said, I'll go back at it. I enjoy reading the Codex but sometimes it makes me want to cry. Do you think my next game should have elves in it? Do you think I'm some kind of faggot, sherry? Because I'm not. I really aren't. But that's alright, I'll make a gay npc just for you, you know. I'm trying some Codex humor, is it working? I think it's working. It has to be working.

Thanks,
Josh
(Gosh-Josh)

 

[Lady_Error]

I'm trying some Codex humor, is it working? I think it's working.

Sounds more like serious business, dude.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Scenario #1 - Josh really, genuinely, doesn't have a clue why something he designed is good or bad. Which is frankly embarrassing after decades of system experience.

Scenario #2 - Josh knows, like any normal person, that poor sales of the sequel are the result of people not being hugely impressed by the first game. He is travelling from expo to expo like a beggar, trying to mystify Deadfire's failure in a desperate effort to stay relevant.

One thing is for certain, dude is a marginal persona.

1 & 2 aren’t mutually exclusive at all—in fact, 2 kinda requires 1. Sawyer knows POE was way less popular than the game’s critical and commercial success made it seem, but that doesn’t really help him figure out how to make POE3 any good. If Deadfire is simply the mediocre sequel to a mediocre game, that means Sawyer is 0 for 2.

Of course he’s baffled—he thought people liked POE.

 

[sser]

Success being sales, I would imagine market fatigue would be #1 on the list:

Pillars
Pillars 2 + Tyranny
D:OS
D:OS 2
Wasteland 2 now 3
Pathfinder
Shadowrun
Underrail
Every single isometric worth its salt being re-released, then re-re-released, then bundled.


When Pillars released it was the spearpoint of a nostalgia wave. Three years later there simply was far more in the market.

Happened to the Adventure and RTS genres just as well. You can make a very good game but if the market becomes saturated what makes the game good is probably not nearly as valuable as what would make the game different from what is on the shelf around it.

 

[hexer]

2. People in general are starting to realize RTWP is fucking awful.

RTwP probably only came about because of the success of Diablo.
I remember reading how Tim Cain had to defend FO1 in front of Interplay's marketing because they asked him to "make it like Diablo"

 

[molotov.]

So, according to you guys, Pillars sold well because of nostalgia, so why, 4 years later, PoE 1 has almost the same amount of players that Deadfire has?

Also, atm PoE 1 has 557 players whilst Pathfinder has 1221. There is something good about PoE 1 we just need to find out what it is.

 

[hexer]

Reading about how he had trouble with coworkers and how he can't figure out why PoE2 failed, I'd say he might have trouble reading feelings of other people.

He sounds to me as someone fit to technically implement a game, not as someone fit to lead a team

 

[jac8awol]

So, according to you guys, Pillars sold well because of nostalgia, so why, 4 years later, PoE 1 has almost the same amount of players that Deadfire has?

Also, atm PoE 1 has 557 players whilst Pathfinder has 1221. There is something good about PoE 1 we just need to find out what it is.

Well I was gonna say the good thing about PoE1 compared to PoE 2 after four years is a lower price tag, but I just checked steam and in my region they're about the same price. What!? So I don't know man, if there's a good thing about it, it's a mystery. But is 500 players really a high number?

 

[Lady_Error]

So, according to you guys, Pillars sold well because of nostalgia, so why, 4 years later, PoE 1 has almost the same amount of players that Deadfire has?

Also, atm PoE 1 has 557 players whilst Pathfinder has 1221. There is something good about PoE 1 we just need to find out what it is.

Well I was gonna say the good thing about PoE1 compared to PoE 2 after four years is a lower price tag, but I just checked steam and in my region they're about the same price. What!? So I don't know man, if there's a good thing about it, it's a mystery. But is 500 players really a high number?

POE1 with all the updates and White March became much better, eg. you can now recruit allies throughout the game for a major battle for your castle. Combat was also improved, as well as some encounter designs.

 

[Trashos]

There is something good about PoE 1 we just need to find out what it is.

The problem is that he has always been listening to the people who thought it was good, and it did not help him any.

 

[Diggfinger]

Name of the Rose-style mystery (I bought that book on Josh' recommendation)

Great. Now I can't even read Umberto Eco anymore, because Josh has unleashed his fanboys on Eco's works. Let the Balancening commence.

Awww...

well, you can still gobble all the cock you want

 

[Jedi Exile]

Nothing is wrong with Pillars 2, Josh. In fact, it is much better than Pillars 1 (especially with TB combat). It's main problem is that it is Pillars game, not Baldur's Gate or Pathfinder, and the latters will always sell better just because of the name. As for Pillars 3, many people would love to play it if it is turn-based. Maybe Feargus will finally have the balls to make a turn-based game :D

 

[Van-d-all]

I think The Outer Worlds proves that gameplay, past a certain watermark, plays only a small part in sales for Obsidian games. The brand is well established at this point, so there is a sizable cult of fans. It is not like a big marketing campaign is affordable. All products are made for an audience in stable numbers for foreseeable future at least. It is just a matter of production money. Investing in the game itself past the bare minimum is unwise for the studio.

Josh's and Obsidian's big mistake is believing Deadfire would have better sales and reach a larger audiences than the first. It was by no means poorly received. Even elephant sized studios are often in the blind about the market, so it isn't a rare event. Josh do not need to beat himself up for being an idiot for once. He do realize that projects with a smaller production and more experimentation space fit him more, that is good for him.

Outer Worlds was the exception, not the rule.
It managed to ride on the back of a massive Bethesda hatewave as a "FNV-like" game(also helps that it has the same branding as FNV even though most of the devs are different,) and Bethesda managed to piss their fans off massively just a couple days before it released.

Given how absolutely lackluster TOW was, I'm starting to think it's success can in great part be attributed to being FPP. It stands to reason, there's already a huge number of gamers for whom FPP was the first RPG experience (Bethesdards) and they want more.

Don't know about others, but for me, the first PoE was so boring that I couldn't be motivated to even consider playing the sequel. I suspect that might have been a part of it in general as well. When you make a shit game, people don't KNOW it's shit until after they buy it for the most part. And so the shittiness of the game shows itself in the sales of the sequel.

THOSE. FUCKING. LOREDUMPS. Seriously I got into POE full of hope. Even have a boxed edition. Wanted to get a grip on this world, but when I started reading all this trash I just couldn't force myself to do it. Pages upon pages of diacritic-ridden names. The only worse instance of this I can think of, were the character backstories in Shadowrun:HK, but at least in there they were just inconsequential walls of text related to 2 or 3 NPCs. On the other hand in Pathfinder, the lore is presented by tiny scraps and pieces but it actually did interest me enough to read a bit about it outside of the game. And don't even get me started on how wonderfully Disco presents it's world... People need to understand that too much lore is a bad thing, especially when delivered through dry encyclopedia entries.

 

[Dr Schultz]

Just let PoE die already, no one gives a shit about that setting. Any interest for me was killed at the end of the 1st game where you realize (if you even got that far and managed to pay attention) that the gods are a sham. So when they try to use gods as a hook in the 2nd game, it's just a massive face-palm.

That's what I've been saying, the setting is bipolar.
Atheistic yet obsessed with gods.
It's like quantum state--it's one and a zero at the same time

No offence, but you feel that way justbecause your idea of god/godhood comes from an Abrahamic religion.

Before the spreading of the three great monotheist religions (and even today, in many parts of the world) a God could have been:

- A powerful being with very human flaws, still subject to death;
- A human being ascended to the state of God during his life;
- A spirit of something, a place, an object, a dead person;
- A mix of all the above.


People were/are used to pray this kind of gods, usually with the idea of gaining something in exchange for their devotion. Considering the fact that the gods of Eora are man-made doesn't make them fake in any possible sense, that they still exist and that they still are very powerful, why stop venerating them?

After all, even after you stop believing that the Pharaon is a good king, the Pharaon can still put you to death because he feels so.

 

[Atchodas]

So, according to you guys, Pillars sold well because of nostalgia, so why, 4 years later, PoE 1 has almost the same amount of players that Deadfire has?

Also, atm PoE 1 has 557 players whilst Pathfinder has 1221. There is something good about PoE 1 we just need to find out what it is.

I wouldn't be surprised if potential new customers of Deadfire just buys the first game first because they think that you need to play trough the first game to important your history etc etc. Deadfire starts with you picking your actions in first game this has to be off-putting for new customer who is interested in story. So those players buy the first game and...... never advance past act 1

 

[Atchodas]

The problem is that he has always been listening to the people who thought it was good, and it did not help him any.

This is huge part of the problem imo, like in Obsidian forums it is impossible to criticise Deadfire even if someone states obvious facts like Deadfire had shit optimisation bad story etc local fanboys jump on that person like rabid dogs mostly with strawman "dis is only your opinion bruh". Numerous times on that forum I caught local fanboys plainly lying about Deadfire even tho they played trough the game 50 or more times and know very well they are full of shit. This definitely did not help making Deadfire better game

 

[Bibbimbop]

Pharaon? Jesus fucking

Pharaon is a good king

Pharaon? That name is some seriously queer shit.

Sounds like someone just changed a few letters in pharaoh. Maybe the reason the game failed was because the designer was an uncreative bloodsucker, extracting his ideas from random unconnected bits of popular history until it was a lifeless husk, like some kind of brain-damaged fampyr

 

[molotov.]

So, according to you guys, Pillars sold well because of nostalgia, so why, 4 years later, PoE 1 has almost the same amount of players that Deadfire has?

Also, atm PoE 1 has 557 players whilst Pathfinder has 1221. There is something good about PoE 1 we just need to find out what it is.

I wouldn't be surprised if potential new customers of Deadfire just buys the first game first because they think that you need to play trough the first game to important your history etc etc. Deadfire starts with you picking your actions in first game this has to be off-putting for new customer who is interested in story. So those players buy the first game and...... never advance past act 1

No. They are actually playing the game. I've been watching the numbers for a couple of months now - because I have a guide and I saw activity on it for the last couple of months so I got curious.

You can check out if you want, just log-in and see for yourself. What I think happened: Deadfire players bought PoE 1 and liked it, perhaps more than Deadfire.

Even the discussion thread has a similar activity, the last post at PoE 1 (Steam) was 6 hours ago, same as the last post for Deadfire (Steam).

Maybe for a supra-natural reason, but people liked PoE 1. Perhaps that is the reason to why I spent 600+hs playing PoE 1?

 

[Space Satan]

Good riddance with a setting and a region full of progressive nigras, boring "balanced" gameplay and other shitty stuff.

 

[Duraframe300]

Pharaon? Jesus fucking

Pharaon is a good king

Pharaon? That name is some seriously queer shit.

Sounds like someone just changed a few letters in pharaoh. Maybe the reason the game failed was because the designer was an uncreative bloodsucker, extracting his ideas from random unconnected bits of popular history until it was a lifeless husk, like some kind of brain-damaged fampyr

Like so many things in Pillars it's literary just pharaoh in a different language (french).

So, yes. It is an actual word. It's also just language *autism*.

 

[luj1]

Plus, the cookie-cutter "+1.5% for 3 seconds" bullshit...

Generally Pillars is ridden with micro stat gains that give no sense of growth. It would have made sense in a Diablo game where progression is fast and max level is 100, not 10. Don't need 20 years of tabletop experience to understand, just common sense.

In either case, they gave up on adressing these oversights in core systems with the sequel and focused entirely on eye-candy and marginal features as their main selling point.