Development Info Josh Sawyer's GDC 2016 talk about attribute tuning in Pillars of Eternity

[Excidium II]

They need to rethink all attributes. The secondary stats need to be more crossed around (like some already are increased by more than one attribute) so you can have more viable builds, instead of "I have lots of aoe and debuffs so 20 INT of course, rest is whatever"

Also should tie attributes to talent requirements, instead of just player level.

 

[Excidium II]

It is p. amaze that indie games made by hobbyists manage to have better systems than something made by by industry veterans.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think an avowed simulationist in a position to judge the merits of this sytem.

The secondary stats need to be more crossed around (like some already are increased by more than one attribute) so you can have more viable builds, instead of "I have lots of aoe and debuffs so 20 INT of course, rest is whatever"

I don't understand what you mean by this, though. You think there's not enough reason to increase attributes? Most critics of PoE's attributes seem to think the opposite, that they gravitate towards giving every character an average score in all the attributes which they find boring.

 

[Excidium II]

I don't think an avowed simulationist in a position to judge the merits of this sytem.

Well turns out I can judge a system's merits based on what it tries to achieve. If it was an opinion based on my design preferences I'd just tell to trash all of it.

The secondary stats need to be more crossed around (like some already are increased by more than one attribute) so you can have more viable builds, instead of "I have lots of aoe and debuffs so 20 INT of course, rest is whatever"

I don't understand what you mean by this, though. You think there's not enough reason to increase attributes? Most critics of PoE's attributes seem to think the opposite, that they gravitate towards giving every character an average score in all the attributes which they find boring.

Most critics of PoE still claim things like 'it sucks because balance' in a game system that sucked significantly because of lack of balance.

I am talking about distributing the secondary stats (dmg, aoe radius,etc) on more than one attribute, like the fort/ref/will saves already are.

Average attributes in PoE don't stink nor smell, it's probably the closest thing (and maybe unintentional) to the games it tries to emulate because you don't even notice your stats unless it's really high or really low.

 

[felipepepe]

I don't think an avowed simulationist in a position to judge the merits of this sytem.

You say this regarding a stat / class-based system for a IE-like game made by a guy who hates stats, classes and IE games...

 

[Infinitron]

I am talking about distributing the secondary stats (dmg, aoe radius,etc) on more than one attribute, like the fort/ref/will saves already are.

I see. I don't know, even assuming there's a problem of people min-maxing too much, is that really a solution? So they max two attributes instead of one.

 

[Excidium II]

I see. I don't know, even assuming there's a problem of people min-maxing too much (why is that a problem again?), is that really a solution? So they max two attributes instead of one. Seems cosmetic.

It's a problem because it becomes impossible to come up with an attribute array that is optimized and also makes sense (which apparently is important to Sawyer).

 

[Infinitron]

I see. I don't know, even assuming there's a problem of people min-maxing too much (why is that a problem again?), is that really a solution? So they max two attributes instead of one. Seems cosmetic.

It's a problem because it becomes impossible to come up with an attribute array that is optimized and also makes sense (which apparently is important to Sawyer).

Hmmm, let me get this straight. You're saying that you think an "optimal character" should never be a 20/10/10/3/3/3 kind of freak? In other words, not only should there be no dump stats in the sense that all stats are potentially useful to all classes, but there should be no dump stats in the sense that all stats are useful or even critical to all characters (ie, no matter how you build a character from a certain class, melee or ranged, offensive or defensive, he'll need them all)?

(Substitute "all" with "many" or "most" if that's what you meant)

 

[Excidium II]

What I mean is that if you think it's important for attribute arrays to make sense, the entire system should not revolve around 20/10/10/3/3/3 builds. That is all. One way to combat that would be to have multiple attributes affect the same thing so you'd be able to make more balanced builds.

I do not think all attributes should be important for all character types because that does not even make sense.

 

[Infinitron]

What I mean is that if you think it's important for attribute arrays to make sense, the entire system should not revolve around 20/10/10/3/3/3 builds.

That sounds like an exaggeration, but I guess what you mean by "revolves around" is that all the best, most optimal characters are like that. (I'm not experienced enough with PoE's character building to know if that's actually true, mind you, perhaps Prime Junta has an opinion here). But okay.

I do not think all attributes should be important for all character types because that does not even make sense.

Yeah, not all, but more of them.

The reason I ask is because that topic did come up during the game's development (though in a more limited sense of ranged vs melee). I asked Josh about it: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/97494143726/re-attributes-i-think-you-need-to-clarify-your

So I'm not sure whether what you're talking about here was actually a design goal of the system.

 

[Excidium II]

Well, more of the attributes being useful in a build is the goal isn't it? Didn't he change PER to also increase Acc, because interrupt isn't useful for everyone so PER was almost universal dump stat?

 

[Infinitron]

Well, more of the attributes being useful in a build is the goal isn't it? Didn't he change PER to also increase Acc, because interrupt isn't useful for everyone so PER was almost universal dump stat?

Perception gave Deflection before that so it was still useful (even too useful).

Anyway, you know what, you've raised an interesting question here. Why do two attributes affect each defense score (except Deflection) but not the other secondary stats? I'll ask Josh that. Interested in seeing his answer.

 

[Excidium II]

Perception gave Deflection before that so it was still useful (even too useful).

Resolve also increased deflection, so it was a better stat.

 

[Excidium II]

I also hate how Sawyer always builds his arguments based on 3.5.

 

[cherry blossom]

The only thing I can say is that Sawyer, Feargus and Obsi are the "Don't Bees" of game design.

The whole idea that int./cha can be very useful to pure combat characters is beyond retarded.

Not referring to POE in particular but, both INT & CHA, as concepts, can indeed be very useful to pure combat characters, that is if you have a deep, elegant system that takes into account very specific traits instead of providing all-purpose broad modifiers.

 

[l3loodAngel]

The only thing I can say is that Sawyer, Feargus and Obsi are the "Don't Bees" of game design.

The whole idea that int./cha can be very useful to pure combat characters is beyond retarded.

Not referring to POE in particular but, both INT & CHA, as concepts, can indeed be very useful to pure combat characters, that is if you have a deep, elegant system that takes into account very specific traits instead of providing all-purpose broad modifiers.

Now if we change "INT & CHA" to "philosopher's stone" and "combat characters" to "transmute lead to gold" I would wholeheartedly agree.

"Philosopher's stone, as concept, can indeed be very useful to transmute lead to gold, that is if you have a deep, elegant system that takes into account very specific traits instead of providing all-purpose broad modifiers."

 

[Excidium II]

Making it affect combat stats directly is indeed p. dumb.

 

[cherry blossom]

An intelligent combatant can possibly think of several movements ahead, predict and plan more precisely, read finer details in an opponent's body language. A charismatic combatant can instill various emotions in an opponent to make him or her flinch and shake his or her resolve, as well as better hide whatever shortcomings (s)he may have. So in a sense, they would directly affect, not the particular combat stats but the ways a combat encounter itself can play out (though they would probably affect some of the derived stats as well to keep things simpler and easier for calculations).

But of course, to have such and such, you would need to have a combat system that takes into account the likes of character traits, predictions, spontaneity, body language, (mis)direction, resolve. Does any computer role-playing game provide that? Not to my knowledge, even though some pnp rpgs do to various degrees. So, as a concept, I'm okay with the idea on a theoretical level.

 

[Roguey]

Also should tie attributes to talent requirements, instead of just player level.

Not happening, Josh doesn't want anyone to do that much planning upfront.

 

[Excidium II]

Also should tie attributes to talent requirements, instead of just player level.

Not happening, Josh doesn't want anyone to do that much planning upfront.

Didn't patch 2.0 add a respec button? Or something for that effect.

 

[Roguey]

Didn't patch 2.0 add a respec button?

That doesn't prevent planning.

 

[Excidium II]

Didn't patch 2.0 add a respec button?

That doesn't prevent planning.

Jeez if you don't plan just respec.

it's how people do with MMOs. Level up picking whatever seems fun then at high level respec to a meta-approved build.

 

[Roguey]

Jeez if you don't plan just respec.

it's how people do with MMOs. Level up picking whatever seems fun then at high level respec to a meta-approved build.

That doesn't sound like something he'd want to encourage. Pillars's respec is intended as a last resort for bad players.

 

[Excidium II]

That's exactly what people who don't plan their characters are.

 

[Sensuki]

I disagree. There's a difference between being good at combat gameplay and being good at character building. Many good players will be good at both (and usually understanding the character system attributes to being better at the gameplay) but the two things are quite different.