Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Game News Kickstarter Drama: Conquistador, Shadowrun and Eisenwald

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
91,895
RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Tags: Aterdux Entertainment; Expeditions: Conquistador; Harebrained Schemes; Kickstarter; Legends of Eisenwald; Logic Artists; Shadowrun Returns

It's been an interesting week on the Kickstarter front. Not just because of the big projects like Torment and Project Eternity, but also because some of the news that's been coming from the Codex's smaller "pet projects". Unfortunately, for those projects, it hasn't been interesting in a good way.

Logic Artists' Expeditions: Conquistador was supposed to have been released on February 28th. Three days before that date, the development team announced that the game was going to be delayed, due to unspecified "distribution complications". They also announced that they would be using that delay to implement multiplayer capabilities that had not been part of the game's original pitch. In the discussion thread of our preview of the game (which was awkwardly published on the same day as that announcement), members of the Logic Artists team admitted that the "distribution complications" involved commitments they had made to a publisher, something which was confirmed in a Kickstarter update that was published on April 4th. I quote:

A week or so ago we let slip on our forums that we’ve signed a deal with bitComposer to bring the game to market. This deal has changed precisely zero things about the game. We didn’t want a publisher to interfere with our product (hence our use of Kickstarter to fund a considerable part of it) and bitComposer didn’t want to interfere with our product, so that all worked out nicely. Just to be absolutely clear, we already had multiplayer done and polished by the time we signed this deal, that was entirely our own decision and bitComposer had nothing to do with it.​

[...] So what’s with the delay? Well as you may have picked up from our embarrassingly uncoordinated attempts to explain it, there is more than one reason for that. First, the delay was because we were talking to bitComposer. Then the delay was because we were waiting to work things out with some major distributors, and though we’re still waiting on that, we expect to be able to release the game this month.​

Now, if you know anything about the Kickstarter crowd, then you're probably well aware that words like "multiplayer" and "publisher" are not exactly music to their ears. This news sparked a bit of a flamewar on the Codex, with a significant number of posters refusing to believe that bitComposer was not behind the decision to implement multiplayer. It did not help that both the game's Steam Greenlight entry and its website were abruptly taken down, making it appear as if Logic Artists had been suddenly taken over by a hostile entity.

A developer from Aterdux Entertainment (more on them later) who had corresponded with the Logic Artists team showed up to explain the situation from his perspective. It would appear that the Expeditions: Conquistador Greenlight campaign was going nowhere fast, and that the primary motive for the publisher deal was to ensure the game's quick admission to the Steam marketplace, which as you may know, is the only guarantee of significant revenue in today's digital distribution economy.

Greed or survival? It's ugly business all around, and Logic Artists' reputation may be permanently tarnished due to their poor handling of this affair. But still, Expeditions: Conquistador is a small game, with a small budget provided by just over 1500 backers. What if a Kickstarter game with over 36000 backers and a budget of nearly 2 million did something equally questionable?

As it happens, that's exactly what occurred just 5 days later on April 9th, when Shadowrun Returns developers Harebrained Schemes published this Kickstarter update:

After a lot of prototyping and research, we decided that our best delivery option for OSX/Windows/Linux is to go the route that great games (like Skyrim!) have taken and embrace Steam and the Steam Workshop. Steam allows us to provide up-to-date downloads and patching along with a vibrant ecosystem for developing community-created content and file sharing.​

So, we're happy to announce that all Backers will receive a Steam Key for the game and will be able to contribute and browse community-created content using Steam Workshop.​

We realize that for some of you, releasing on Steam isn’t your first choice but there are a lot of really great things we get from this decision that allow us to focus on the game rather than on making things like backend servers to deploy and manage shared content. From the start, we’ve had to make practical decisions like this one to ensure we get the most out of the support you’ve given us. We consider this to be the best option for everyone.​

Now, that may prompt the question, “What about DRM-free?” To honor our original promise of a DRM-free version of the game, the Harebrained Account Website will also contain a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns that does not include Steam integration. While this version will include the Seattle story (and Berlin, via a one-time update), without Steam integration, it will be unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game. Any future DLC will only be available through Steam.​

Combined with the news from last month that Shadowrun Returns would lack core CRPG features such as looting and game saving(!), the impression one gets is that this project has also run out of money, forcing the developers to cut corners and make questionable compromises. Needless to say, this news did not go over well with the game's backers, as evidenced by the response to that update (now at 1000 comments and still going). "DRM" is another one of those words that one must never utter on Kickstarter.

On that same day, Aterdux Entertainment, developers of Legends of Eisenwald, published a Kickstarter update of their own. As you shall see, it would appear that they have taken the lessons of the Logic Artists incident to heart:

We will have to delay the release of our game until September. Experimenting with gameplay and applying all polish, taking care of UI things – all this is taking us much longer than we thought it would. Taking longer will benefit our game and make it better overall, even though delay is not something we are really happy about. We will talk more about it below.​

Also, we are fortunate to have found a new executive producer (yes, the sword reward has found its owner!) and this is good since our Kickstarter funds are pretty much spent, with exception of the amount reserved to fulfill physical rewards. This gives us a guarantee that we can bring our project to completion and ensure that we can release our game in good quality.​

The rest of the update is a long and frank explanation of Aterdux's current situation. They too have run out of money, and their "producer" is a wealthy Russian businessman who is funding the game's prolonged development cycle. Despite Legends of Eisenwald having more backers and more funding than Expeditions: Conquistador, this news has been received with a far lesser degree of outrage. It definitely helps that "producer" is a less toxic word than "publisher", but the lesson is clear - communication matters! Eisenwald is apparently doing quite well on Greenlight, and hopefully we will be able to report on its admission to Steam on April 17th.

So, that's what happened on Kickstarter this week. Quite amazing really that it happened all at once. The question is, is this just the tip of the iceberg? Is it impossible for a high quality Kickstarter game with a budget of less than 3 or 4 million to successfully conclude development without the developers running out of money and being forced to make ugly compromises? Will those bigger Kickstarters eventually run out of money too? Discuss!
 

oldmanpaco

Master of Siestas
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
13,515
Location
Fall
Awesome. I baked all three of those games.

Awesome.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
27,929
That's one of the main problems with KS. Developers ask for money, never really explaining why they need 50k or 100k or even 1 mil, how they are going to be spent, and, most importantly, what makes them think that these money will be sufficient to make a game. People fund these games thinking that now that these games are funded, they are as good as done, while in reality, it means nothing at all.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
16,970
Codex USB, 2014
Allt åt helvete.

Actually...

Shadowrun: Steam would have been my choice anyway.
Eisenwald: Sucks to run out of money, but what are you gonna do. At least they're set on finishing the game.
Conquistador: I wouldn't even trust a Dane with my... shoehorn. But still, I understand why they made the move. It makes sense from a business perspective. I never backed them anyway so what do I care, really. I'll get the game if I hear it's good.
 

Havoc

Cheerful Magician
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
5,446
Location
Poland
Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath
Well... shit. Good that I backed only Shadowrun.
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
5,540
Location
United States of America
I think the issue here is people asking for too little funding. Obsidian and InXile got it right, for bumping up their bare minimum to at least a million. Also, getting it right with careful placement of physical rewards. I think the most damnable factor with Shadowrun was them getting over optimistic and dishing out physical goods too generously. I'm no game designer but boy it's common knowledge that making games is not cheap or easy, especially ones that promise things.
 

Curious_Tongue

Larpfest
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
11,302
Location
Australia
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?
 

Koschey

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
613
Location
Germany
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Yikes, I was only raging about SR:R because it's the only one of those three I'm actively following, but that is some fucked up timing o_O

Well, you are better ready to edit this newspost Infinitron, HBS announced they would release a FAQ regarding their latest update on Friday (yesterday for me).
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
32,043
A reminder that Shadowrun Returns got on Steam without making a deal with a publisher, being on greenlight or a proven track record (to date they've only released a couple of mobile games). :)

I think the controversy's just another teapot tempest.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
7,888
I really don't like how it seems like these kickstarted games inevitably run out of money before they're finished. Perhaps the incline was just a dream after all? :(
If Fargo can't complete Wasteland 2 on time and budget then the era of crowdfunded games might be over before it really starts.
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?
Steam offers autopatching and other stuff that reduces support costs and makes life easier for the developers. Expect to see more steam only games in the future.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
91,895
RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?

Steam doesn't make exclusivity deals. They are either really afraid of piracy of their DLC, or they actually don't have enough budget to develop releases for all the digital distributors.

It doesn't sound likely, I know, but then neither does not having enough budget for implementing saving.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
7,888
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?
Steam offers autopatching and other stuff that reduces support costs and makes life easier for the developers. Expect to see more steam only games in the future.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
32,043
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?

Steam doesn't make exclusivity deals. They are either really afraid of piracy of their DLC, or they actually don't have enough budget to develop releases for all the digital distributors.

It doesn't sound likely, I know, but then neither does not having enough budget for implementing saving.
That's not entirely true, EA games have been taken off Steam because Valve was miffed that you could buy DLC in-game without giving Valve their cut.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
91,895
RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?

Steam doesn't make exclusivity deals. They are either really afraid of piracy of their DLC, or they actually don't have enough budget to develop releases for all the digital distributors.

It doesn't sound likely, I know, but then neither does not having enough budget for implementing saving.
That's not entirely true, EA games have been taken off Steam because Valve was miffed that you could buy DLC in-game without giving Valve their cut.

That's not an exclusivity deal. An exclusivity deal is when Valve offers the developer a bonus of some sort to be Steam-exclusive. I don't believe such a thing exists (but perhaps I'm wrong).
 

evdk

comrade troglodyte :M
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
11,292
Location
Corona regni Bohemiae
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It doesn't sound likely, I know, but then neither does not having enough budget for implementing saving.
Maybe they truly, in their heart of hearts, believe that it is the best design solution.

Anyway, what's the ETA on that promised FAQ, I want to see if I have anything to truly rage about.
 

Curious_Tongue

Larpfest
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
11,302
Location
Australia
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
Why no GOG for Shadowrun? Is Steam offering better deals for exclusivity or something?

Steam doesn't make exclusivity deals. They are either really afraid of piracy of their DLC, or they actually don't have enough budget to develop releases for all the digital distributors.

It doesn't sound likely, I know, but then neither does not having enough budget for implementing saving.

Tim Schafer said the profitability on slow but steady digital sales was surprising. It's not much for a publisher, but for an independent studio it's good income.

If it's popular enough for dlc, it's popular enough to keep steady sales for years to come. Being paranoid about piracy is going to just piss off buyfags, as it will piss me off not being able to buy it on GOG.
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,035

I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
Didn't Double Fine already run out of money and had to work out some distribution deal to fund? At least Wasteland 2 looks to be on track.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,730
Less of a Kickstarter issue and more of a Steam issue in that developers feel the financial pressure to offer their game on GabeN's service. That said, it's still a developer's fault when they base their business strategy and pitch assuming they're a lock for Steam and then alter their terms when they find out such is not the case. We should see less of this in the future as Steam will probably scrap Greenlight given Newell's disappointment with how it has turned out. Without Greenlight developers will either commit to a plan that doesn't rely on Steam or secure a 'publisher' in advance even if it's just some staged agreement where an established developer with Steam access bootstraps the new game onto the platform. Fargo/InXile could provide this service and charge some trivial amount giving the proceeds to KickItForward or whatever.

Re: Steamworks for Shadowrun it seems to be more an issue of them liking Steamworkshop.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
91,895
RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Didn't Double Fine already run out of money and had to work out some distribution deal to fund? At least Wasteland 2 looks to be on track.

I don't know if they were out of money when they announced that, but they were going to run out of money eventually if they didn't acquire additional funding.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
32,043
Maybe they truly, in their heart of hearts, believe that it is the best design solution.
No one on the team likes checkpoints better than save any time you want.
People who sound like they know what they're talking about:
Checkpoint saves ARE in fact far less time consuming to code than not. There are fewer variables if you can't save mid-mission or in any possible place and status, even if save points are abundant.
Save anywhere isn't really much harder technically assuming your architecture is set up for it from the start, but it's still a lot more time-consuming and error-prone, especially to QA. In other words, it's got little to nothing to do with programming ability.

I don't see why all the drama, the only thing that REALLY should cause a outrage is the lack of looting in Shadowrun Returns.
As much as I enjoyed trolling about this it's nbd because one can place loot to pick up using triggers and they say that there are in fact items that you can get in the world/from dead bodies in the campaign. They're just not a constant thing.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Top Bottom