KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lyric Suite]

Isn't M&B just the sort of autistic free-roaming LARPing in a purely historical world?

Yeah but the masses are not interested in indie games and their conception of LARPing is more about visual fluff than anything of substance.

I remember when New Vegas was released a lot of Fallout 3 fanboys didn't like the fact the game was more focused on story and lacked the type of empty free roaming Fallout 3 had, but i'm hoping this game will do the trick because of teh awesome graphix.

 

[RK47]

This game will do the trick because you'll be seeking out a middle aged man who killed your father

 

[Burning Bridges]

I think i may have been the one to throw out the Skyrim killer idea. Skyrim is popular because to most people, LARPing = RPG. The fact the game is extremely shitty in execution doesn't seem to matter, the vast majority of people just like the idea of "pretending" to be their character. A Skyrim done well would probably bury Bethesda to the ground, especially after the semi fiasco that was Fallout 4 (and at some level, people MUST realize how crappy those games are, or there wouldn't be near as many mods).

That was before i knew about the Mafia connection and maybe this game is better off being more story driven (or a mix of story and simulation) than just autistic free roaming LARPing where everything scales to your level and nothing you do actually matters.
And i just want the game to succeed because i want historical medieval settings to become a thing. I came profusely when that cathedral and monastery shot appeared in the trailer. Blow me.

Perhaps this is another part of the story, that Vavras game always strive to improve something more famous, but he knows shit about good gameplay. Which is also part of the reason he left the Codex, because people were questioning his ideas for the combat (the other of course that it was below his level to post here).

I remember when Mafia came out, many people saw it as a GTA killer. Then it came out and was GTA with better graphics but without the things that made GTA great. Many people asked what was the point of creating the most expansive representation of a city in any game up to that time, and then give the player nothing to do in it. considering it must have cost years to create that city, Mafia was an example of one grotesquely mismanaged project.

Of course I still like it, the graphics were pure class and it aged so well you can still play it today. But the gameplay? Absolute dissappointment.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Vavras left the Codex because people here gave him shit that he believed realistic simulation was an evolution over every other previous RPG mechanic. He believes stuff like turn based combat existed only because computer technology wasn't advanced enough to replicate real combat in a more "realistic" manner. That's an insanely controversial opinion to have around here but that's not the same as saying he doesn't know shit about gameplay. He is just obtusely committed to a particular design philosophy and for all intended purposes he may be very good at creating the type of combat he favors. It doesn't matter what he thinks about turn based combat as long as he doesn't attempt at making a turn based RPG.

Certainly, the type of combat he seems to have created for this game seems to be more interesting than anything we've seen from previous games of this type. The fact he is adamantly committed to a specific design vision may well result in him being particularly adept at realizing said vision.

 

[Haba]

This game will do the trick because you'll be seeking out a middle aged man who killed your father

He is an under-age refugee from a war-torn territory, you damn racist.

 

[Jimmious]

This game will do the trick because you'll be seeking out a middle aged man who killed your father

I'm looking f'r mine own fath'r. Middle-ag'd guy. Haply thee've seen that gent?

 

[cvv]

you'll be seeking out a middle aged man who killed your father

You should do a series with this:
- Indiana Jones - a period drama about a history professor
- Jurassic Park - a family trip to a zoo
- Superman - a female journalist falls in love
- Star Wars - an orphan looking for his parents

 

[cvv]

I remember when Mafia came out, many people saw it as a GTA killer. Then it came out and was GTA with better graphics but without the things that made GTA great.

Alternatively for many people Mafia revealed how incredibly dumb and boring GTA is.

Vavra believes stuff like turn based combat existed only because computer technology wasn't advanced enough to replicate real combat in a more "realistic" manner. That's an insanely controversial opinion to have around here but that's not the same as saying he doesn't know shit about gameplay.

I personally think Vavra is embarrassingly wrong here, after all TB vidyas or shit like board games are more popular than ever so it's clear it's just a different type of animal that can exist and thrive independently of real-time. But yeah, that doesn't say anything about him as a designer.

Altho...afaik it's Viktor Bocan of the Operation Flashpoint and ArmA fame who is responsible for most of the systems in KCD and hearing him talk he 100% knows his shit. Plus his Top 1 game is Dark Souls so he is clearly intelligent, wise and prestigious.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Vavras left the Codex because people here gave him shit that he believed realistic simulation was an evolution over every other previous RPG mechanic. He believes stuff like turn based combat existed only because computer technology wasn't advanced enough to replicate real combat in a more "realistic" manner. That's an insanely controversial opinion to have around here but that's not the same as saying he doesn't know shit about gameplay. He is just obtusely committed to a particular design philosophy and for all intended purposes he may be very good at creating the type of combat he favors. It doesn't matter what he thinks about turn based combat as long as he doesn't attempt at making a turn based RPG.

Certainly, the type of combat he seems to have created for this game seems to be more interesting than anything we've seen from previous games of this type. The fact he is adamantly committed to a specific design vision may well result in him being particularly adopted at realizing said vision.

So, he basically ignores the inspiration from PnP that contributed to the emergence of RPGs as they emerged. Can't he see the appeal of throwing dice and keeping fingers crossed for a hit. No taste for gambling, typical for a protestant.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think it's a matter of personality. Vavra seems to be the type of guy who prefers direct action over something more conceptual. Rather than sitting back and thinking about combat in the abstract he is the type of guy who would rather go out and actually fight, and that mindset is what is informing his design philosophy. Nothing wrong with that as long as he can pull it off well. We have companies like Larian to take care of our thirst for numbers and abstractions.

 

[moon knight]

Vavras left the Codex because people here gave him shit that he believed realistic simulation was an evolution over every other previous RPG mechanic. He believes stuff like turn based combat existed only because computer technology wasn't advanced enough to replicate real combat in a more "realistic" manner.

And how does he think is possible to manage a party with a realistic real time combat system?

 

[Kem0sabe]

What this game is doing with this combat is not in any way a simulation, it's just another action combat system, an action based one at that.

People keep throwing around realistic, simulation, sandbox, etc... But this is a game after all, realistic based on what? Simulation of an abstraction of an idea about how medieval melee combat might look like? Sandbox that allows less interactions in a smaller more story focused game than Skyrim?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Have you tried fighting someone with a sword? Well, that's what Vavra means by realism. It's action over abstraction. I don't agree with him that there's only room for one design philosophy, and least of all i don't agree with him that an action based simulation makes other forms of RPG combat redundant, but in itself there's nothing wrong with simulation through direct action as a design principle.

I mean, we have no problem calling this a simulation:



What's the difference here exactly? Stuff like Arma too follows a similar design principle, and i don't seen anything wrong with that either. Aren't we making the same mistake as Vavra in claiming our design ideal in regards to combat in an RPG is the "only" valid one?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I bet Vavra is just shitposting on Codex under an unknown alt name. Nobody just leaves RPGCodex.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Vavras left the Codex because people here gave him shit that he believed realistic simulation was an evolution over every other previous RPG mechanic. He believes stuff like turn based combat existed only because computer technology wasn't advanced enough to replicate real combat in a more "realistic" manner.

And how does he think is possible to manage a party with a realistic real time combat system?

I guess in his mind it would be like a tactical shooter, where you give orders to AI controlled units or where you take direct control of a given unit while the others are moved by AI.

 

[AwesomeButton]

We have companies like Larian to take care of our thirst for numbers and abstractions.

They are such experts at number bloat that they can satisfy anyone's thirst.

 

[Infinitron]

You know it's possible that Daniel.Vavra doesn't post here because he has a million other more important things to do with his time

 

[Kem0sabe]

Have you tried fighting someone with a sword? Well, that's what Vavra means by realism. It's action over abstraction. I don't agree with him that there's only room for one design philosophy, and least of all i don't agree with him that an action based simulation makes other forms of RPG combat redundant, but in itself there's nothing wrong with simulation through direct action as a design principle.

I mean, we have no problem calling this a simulation:



What's the difference here exactly? Stuff like Arma too follows a similar design principle, and i don't seen anything wrong with that either. Aren't we making the same mistake as Vavra in claiming our design ideal in regards to combat in an RPG is the "only" valid one?

You can go out on a car and test it, the models, the drag, the torque, the physics, are all measurable and quantifiable, how it should handle on a track, you put a wheel connected to your computer and you can drive the car like it was the real thing, or as close to it as you are going to get.

Sword combat with medieval weapons is just an aproximation, none of the experts we have today ever fought in medieval times, didn't live in those times, never fought with risk to their own lives. What we have are people trying to look cool in mock combat, with their own interpretation of what some books or paintings/drawings described as combat

What we have in the game is a bunch of animations that you click a direction and attack, a stamina bar that depletes and fills up serving as health, how is that realistic or a simulation?

 

[Burning Bridges]

Certainly, the type of combat he seems to have created for this game seems to be more interesting than anything we've seen from previous games of this type. The fact he is adamantly committed to a specific design vision may well result in him being particularly adept at realizing said vision.

That combat was pioneered by M&B that's why the parallel came up.

Vavras left the Codex because people here gave him shit that he believed realistic simulation was an evolution over every other previous RPG mechanic.

Yes! And how I hope he had just meant it serious, because that's exactly why I had such high hopes in this game, when it was just a vision on their shitty homepage. A hybrid of simulation and RPG, running on the latest technology and made by some of the most gifted artists ever would be the perfect game for a lot of people like me.

But I'm afraid simulation and total lack of interactivity, reliance on QTE events and consolitis etc are a bit at odds.

There was a time when this would have been common sense. The best simPGs imo were the Ultima Underworlds 1+2 as well as the System Shocks, and they were exactly following the technological developments. All those games were brave for their time in using simulation aspects like movable objects, physic engines with good RPG mechanics. VtmB comes to my mind too, though it was less interactive it was also very unrestrictive. Even Morrowind deserves credit for having the most flexible object system imagineable at its time.

But as I said, none of those games took control from the player for more than a few short times, to bore him to death with QTE events.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Have you tried fighting someone with a sword? Well, that's what Vavra means by realism. It's action over abstraction. I don't agree with him that there's only room for one design philosophy, and least of all i don't agree with him that an action based simulation makes other forms of RPG combat redundant, but in itself there's nothing wrong with simulation through direct action as a design principle.

I mean, we have no problem calling this a simulation:



What's the difference here exactly? Stuff like Arma too follows a similar design principle, and i don't seen anything wrong with that either. Aren't we making the same mistake as Vavra in claiming our design ideal in regards to combat in an RPG is the "only" valid one?

You can go out on a car and test it, the models, the drag, the torque, the physics, are all measurable and quantifiable, how it should handle on a track, you put a wheel connected to your computer and you can drive the car like it was the real thing, or as close to it as you are going to get.

Sword combat with medieval weapons is just an aproximation, none of the experts we have today ever fought in medieval times, didn't live in those times, never fought with risk to their own lives. What we have are people trying to look cool in mock combat, with their own interpretation of what some books or paintings/drawings described as combat

What we have in the game is a bunch of animations that you click a direction and attack, a stamina bar that depletes and fills up serving as health, how is that realistic or a simulation?

You are splitting airs. The game is attempting to simulate medieval combat the same way something like Assetto Corsa or rFactor are attempting to simulate real race driving. It doesn't matter how successful Kingdom Come is at replicating real medieval combat. It is the principle of the thing we are discussing here. Whether they are successful at doing what they are trying to do is another argument entirely.

 

[Makabb]

What this game is doing with this combat is not in any way a simulation, it's just another action combat system, an action based one at that.

People keep throwing around realistic, simulation, sandbox, etc... But this is a game after all, realistic based on what? Simulation of an abstraction of an idea about how medieval melee combat might look like? Sandbox that allows less interactions in a smaller more story focused game than Skyrim?

They call it realistic because of the graphics and the world building, the landscape and areas look like real world places....... the rpg mechanics will be gud, the combat will be shit...... here, I reviewed KCD before release and you can expect this to be 100% accurate.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, there's some Deus Ex shit going on with the way quests are designed in this game:



The dialog and writing, while not particularly stellar, seem to have that same simple nativity we used to have in games back in the day and they don't try to go for extreme edginess and try hardness, which i like.

 

[Makabb]

I bet Vavra is just shitposting on Codex under an unknown alt name. Nobody just leaves RPGCodex.

plot twist, Burning Bridges is Vavra and he is shitting on his own game because he hates the combat

 

[Burning Bridges]

BTW, there's some Deus Ex shit going on with the way quests are designed in this game:



The dialog and writing, while not particularly stellar, seem to have that same simple nativity we used to have in games back in the day and they don't try to go for extreme edginess and try hardness, which i like.

Btw when I see this, I can't wait till Birger Pal plays this.

 

[Jrpgfan]

You know it's possible that Daniel.Vavra doesn't post here because he has a million other more important things to do with his time

Like promoting his RPG on a RPG focused site?

I think he just ragequit after losing an argument. Guys like him are not used to it, but he learned one doesn't simply come to the codex with half-assed arguments and gets away with it.