KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Brickfrog]

Does this game use straight 3.5e as-written, or does it fix the glaring problems like Pathfinder did? Are 90% of the enemies in the game still immune to the rogue's central class feature? Can clerics and wizards still cast spells to literally become Fighters But Better? Are there still a thousand noob trap races completely unusable because of a huge level penalty?

Other people have said that late game enemies can rarely be sneak attacked.
Instead of a level penalty, races have a variable amount of points to spend on stats.

 

[Serus]

Restartitis is hell of a drug but i'm mostly done with that part. Last(hopefully) question, will i suffer a lot without a Cleric? I'd take a Druid and a Psionicist so pure healing power shouldn't be a problem. I'm only not sure about the spells that let you cure some status(es?). How needed is a Cleric?

Brickfrog what i wanted to say about the tutorial, it is actually, strangely enough, FUN to play. It is a small adventure. Past the first few fights.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Restartitis is hell of a drug but i'm mostly done with that part. Last(hopefully) question, will i suffer a lot without a Cleric? I'd take a Druid and a Psionicist so pure healing power shouldn't be a problem. I'm only not sure about the spells that let you cure some status(es?). How needed is a Cleric?

Brickfrog what i wanted to say about the tutorial, it is actually, strangely enough, FUN to play. It is a small adventure. Past the first few fights.

Just remember to pay attention or you'll be like me, having to restart everytime you accidentally speed up dialog.

 

[TigerKnee]

Does this game use straight 3.5e as-written, or does it fix the glaring problems like Pathfinder did?

It's Pierre's very strange homebrew where Charisma affects Reflex save.

Are 90% of the enemies in the game still immune to the rogue's central class feature?

Seems like the case in Augury of Chaos. In theory someone else could design some that don't do silly things like that.

Can clerics and wizards still cast spells to literally become Fighters But Better?

The number of pre-battle buff spells has been severely cut down even back in KOTC1. It takes too long to buff yourself to the gills if you actually have to spend in-battle rounds to do it, so CODzilla doesn't really exist here.

Are there still a thousand noob trap races completely unusable because of a huge level penalty?

Races don't use level penalty in KOTC2. I don't know if I would call any of them traps but some of them are definitely very specialized. The 20ft move races in particular are fairly hard to use.

 

[notpl]

Much obliged for the detailed response!

 

[Darth Canoli]

The game as default sets the difficulty at "Challenge mode (normal)" level (+1 ability score/every 2 levels and +1 feat/each level) nowadays. So what you call "default" will differ from what a new player who has no idea about Pierre approach to difficulty will see in-game.
That fact the "very hard" difficulty (that used be the only one) follows 3.5 rules the most closely is another thing. It just is the problem with Pierre design and his understanding of difficulty. It was discussed here long time ago. I remember people were telling Pierre to add standardised lower difficulty settings in this thread. Suggesting something easier as default if he wants to sell the game to anyone else. Hardcore players can still play it "as it was meant to be played".

And I advised him to do so as well but it doesn't change the fact the game was designed around the hardest difficulty.

Just be thankful because Pierre also added more dialog helps options on top of this, like temporary allies and such (gold dragon, angel an djinn came from my suggestions)

Are there still a thousand noob trap races completely unusable because of a huge level penalty?

Races don't use level penalty in KOTC2. I don't know if I would call any of them traps but some of them are definitely very specialized. The 20ft move races in particular are fairly hard to use.

I thank Dagda, the god of life and death for not having the level penalties drows and some other subraces gets sometimes like in Temple+ (Troll 10-12 level penalty oO )

Everything is usable and Dwarfes are good as clerics or with some martial classes like monk (+ speed), barbarian (+speed), Samourai (no armor penalty), fighter (wade-in) and because you'll get boots of haste and can add some mobility enchantments to armors to remove penalties.

But of course, a Centaur Fighter with 80 moving speed with boots of haste will be invaluable during certain fights with a huge battlescape, you mostly only need one higher mobility fighter and also one to protect the spellcasters, the dwarf can do that.

 

[JarlFrank]

My first attempts with ironman make it feel possible. Lowest difficulty and a pre-planned path through the game shall allow me to survive this! But first I need to finish my current normal playthrough so I can plan out my approach. Chapter 3 is a lot more open and you need to be careful in which order to tackle the encounters (and which ones to maybe avoid entirely - rust monsters for example).

But I'll have to look into how ironman actually works. If it deletes your save upon loading it, I need to back it up and delete it manually just to protect myself from bugs that freeze or crash the game.

 

[Whisper]

At the end of the day, I've completed the game on the "original" difficulty in summer 2020 and the new default normal mode (in summer last year). So I know how both feel.

The latter is a much less frustrating experience. It still has plenty of challenge, but actually forgives some mistakes and a (slightly) sub optimal party. It also requires less perfect RNG on initiative and save rolls (except for some of the optional fights like the spider queen which are still very difficult).

Not to say Archmage won't be enjoyable to some, but people should be aware what they are getting into.

I had good experience with a rogue, though I was initially very sceptical about it. That said, I stopped playing with that party when I hit chapter 4, so odds are the rogue might lose a lot of usefulness there given that every piece of shit enemy has foresight or unnatural immunity to critical hits.

I found Rogue fairly weak in the final chapter when I did my playthrough last year. I was constantly wishing it was another full caster or martial.

So "Normal" in this game is not "easy" as in other games?

Does "Normal" provides enough challenge?

 

[Darth Canoli]

With this low difficulty level selected, you then have to harvest as much XP as you can in order to prepare yourself for each challenge. With all the new content added in Finchbury, you can absolutely get yourself to a level where you're able to ironman at least all the way through chapter 2. I'm currently at chapter 3 in my normal playthrough and am going to take a look at the optimal strategy for getting through that area while minimizing the risk of death.

If you do it on easy, I'll do it on normal.
No max abilities, I already checked, I'll just add one extra point to one fighter to get to 13 Int (max allowed 12), Also created/added the team in the right order for the pool.

Spoiler

1. Fortitude saving throws
2. Reflex saving throws
3. +1 STR
4. +1 DEX
5. +1 CON
6. Will saving throws

 

[Whisper]

How many enemies in end-game are immune to enchantment or illusion control-spells?

 

[Efe]

why are these zombies not going away when I kill necromancers
how do I understand elevation is there?.

 

[JarlFrank]

At the end of the day, I've completed the game on the "original" difficulty in summer 2020 and the new default normal mode (in summer last year). So I know how both feel.

The latter is a much less frustrating experience. It still has plenty of challenge, but actually forgives some mistakes and a (slightly) sub optimal party. It also requires less perfect RNG on initiative and save rolls (except for some of the optional fights like the spider queen which are still very difficult).

Not to say Archmage won't be enjoyable to some, but people should be aware what they are getting into.

I had good experience with a rogue, though I was initially very sceptical about it. That said, I stopped playing with that party when I hit chapter 4, so odds are the rogue might lose a lot of usefulness there given that every piece of shit enemy has foresight or unnatural immunity to critical hits.

I found Rogue fairly weak in the final chapter when I did my playthrough last year. I was constantly wishing it was another full caster or martial.

So "Normal" in this game is not "easy" as in other games?

Does "Normal" provides enough challenge?

Normal is challenging in this game, yes. Easy is actually somewhat easy if you harvest enough XP in Finchbury. Hard is HARD but doable if you harvest enough XP in Finchbury, savescum, and pick your battles wisely.

 

[Darth Canoli]

How many enemies in end-game are immune to enchantment or illusion control-spells?

There's immune and there's saving throws, +DC and a Death Knight will help you to get through their defenses, there's also % of magic resistance on some enemies.
Some bosses are immune or have insanely high saving throws which is basically the same but not much hard immunity.

But spells like chaos and confusion are AoE and as there's a shitload of mobs, it's a good alternative to summons.

I never tried the control undead spells.

why are these zombies not going away when I kill necromancers
how do I understand elevation is there?.

Use an aoe spell to do this, then cancel, I'm not sure there's an another way, some spells and bard chants were recently modified to work through different heights.

 

[Serus]

DS games are 2E. Read up on 3E action economy and natural weapons. It works the same as PnP. It is a weird ass homebrew but it is faithful on this point, if a generous interpretation.

The dumb and lazy version: free claws are only usable in a full attack action, by default a full turn. So only a 5-feet-step is allowed. Move more than that, only one main hand weapon hit.

No wonder you guys can enjoy the game this much, ignorance is bliss indeed. Despite D1P to support Pierre, I have a hard time impressed by 3E anymore.

I believe the question is if all mantis natural attacks count as unarmed (for example: to bypass DR) or only the first/main attack when playing as a mantis monk.


Edit: I just noticed, Augury of Chaos is a module for 1 to 6 characters of maximum level 2. So you, in theory should be able to level your party legally before starting?

 

[Whisper]

Difficulty is insane as per this review?

https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=11599

Or was changed?

p.s. i mean like this:

Now contrast that with some of the dumber fights out there, which almost resemble puzzles in how there is only one obvious way of getting through them. I’ll list three encounters which, I think, are very representative of the problems that riddle the general design.

- The first one is at the start of chapter 2, when you’ve just been stripped of your gear and have to fight with sticks and stones. Your party is level 3. It’s standing in a corridor, when it gets ambushed by a level 10 minotaur mage knight. The mino is pre-buffed with mage armour, blur and mirror image, gets a surprise round and always opens with a Web spell. Once your dudes are caught in the web, the monster can clobber you senseless with its superior melee reach, which only gets bigger thanks to the Enlarge spell that it usually casts on its second turn.

- The second is an obvious “puzzle” fight. When you’re still armed with sticks and stones in chapter 2, and your party may be level 3-4, you come across a death dragon. Fortunately, a fight before this one gives you a mace of disruption that has a chance to instakill undead. So what is very clearly expected of you, is to take the mace and hope you trigger the effect against the dragon. The caveat is that the chance to trigger it is, I think, 5%.

- The third is an infamous spider queen battle. This comes in chapter 3, and your party will be well above level 10 at this point. The start is relatively innocent – you come across a mob of giant spiders, with some caster-spiders among them. However, after two turns, a spider queen spawns in a corner of the arena, with three more caster-spiders to accompany it. The queen is a level 22 wizard with nearly 600 HP and all the spells and pre-buffs that I outlined earlier. She opens with accelerated spell and a double cast of prismatic void. As if that were not enough, after a few more turns, a gigantic adamantine statue comes to life from out of nowhere, with two more caster spiders. I think the statue can do twelve attacks a turn with its four magic two-handed weapons, though I’m not even sure anymore. Also, it explodes on death for massive damage. It's worth noting as well that just before the fight you find an excellent anti-magic greatsword that has a dispel magic effect on it. Sounds useful against the spider queen and her many buffs… except that one of these is of course Dispelling Buffer, which reduces the sword’s dispel chance to zero. Yes, zero.

Your only hope of surviving this fight is to be aware of the spider queen’s spawn, beeline your dudes there immediately, hope for a good initiative roll and try to somehow prevent her from being able to act. After that it’s only a matter of clearing out the remaining swarm of high-level spider mages and the ridiculous statue. If you fail at any step of the way, it’s instant reloading time, because otherwise you’ll be vapourised. The same is true of the death dragon – if you don’t luck out and whack it to death in one hit, you reload the game or you get wiped. It’s also true of the minotaur mage – if your characters don’t save vs the web effect, you might as well reload immediately too. This is perhaps the greatest failing of Augury of Chaos, and it ties into the quick draw contests I referenced earlier. Some of the battles are so reliant on getting lucky rolls on your first turn (especially initiative) that there is no point in continuing the fight if the dice don’t go your way, because you are not going to succeed anyway. When this happens, you will find yourself spending more time on reloading failed attempts than actually playing the game for real, and this just shouldn’t be happening. It was also never the case in KotC1, even in the hardest final battles.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Edit: I just noticed, Augury of Chaos is a module for 1 to 6 characters of maximum level 2. So you, in theory should be able to level your party legally before starting?

You can even do it in the party creation screen, I think I recall doing it for the mini module made by pikachu.

Difficulty is insane as per this review?

https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=11599

Or was changed?

That was the original difficulty, aka the hardest difficulty now.
Besides this, many pre-combat options, like allies were added.

Just play on easy or normal if you don't like being kicked in the balls.

 

[Whisper]

Edit: I just noticed, Augury of Chaos is a module for 1 to 6 characters of maximum level 2. So you, in theory should be able to level your party legally before starting?

You can even do it in the party creation screen, I think I recall doing it for the mini module made by pikachu.

Difficulty is insane as per this review?

https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=11599

Or was changed?

That was the original difficulty, aka the hardest difficulty now.
Besides this, many pre-combat options, like allies were added.

Just play on easy or normal if you don't like being kicked in the balls.

I mean, does he lie about this or this insanity is really true?

"- The first one is at the start of chapter 2, when you’ve just been stripped of your gear and have to fight with sticks and stones. Your party is level 3. It’s standing in a corridor, when it gets ambushed by a level 10 minotaur mage knight. The mino is pre-buffed with mage armour, blur and mirror image, gets a surprise round and always opens with a Web spell. Once your dudes are caught in the web, the monster can clobber you senseless with its superior melee reach, which only gets bigger thanks to the Enlarge spell that it usually casts on its second turn.

- The second is an obvious “puzzle” fight. When you’re still armed with sticks and stones in chapter 2, and your party may be level 3-4, you come across a death dragon. Fortunately, a fight before this one gives you a mace of disruption that has a chance to instakill undead. So what is very clearly expected of you, is to take the mace and hope you trigger the effect against the dragon. The caveat is that the chance to trigger it is, I think, 5%.

- The third is an infamous spider queen battle. This comes in chapter 3, and your party will be well above level 10 at this point. The start is relatively innocent – you come across a mob of giant spiders, with some caster-spiders among them. However, after two turns, a spider queen spawns in a corner of the arena, with three more caster-spiders to accompany it. The queen is a level 22 wizard with nearly 600 HP and all the spells and pre-buffs that I outlined earlier. She opens with accelerated spell and a double cast of prismatic void. As if that were not enough, after a few more turns, a gigantic adamantine statue comes to life from out of nowhere, with two more caster spiders. I think the statue can do twelve attacks a turn with its four magic two-handed weapons, though I’m not even sure anymore. Also, it explodes on death for massive damage. It's worth noting as well that just before the fight you find an excellent anti-magic greatsword that has a dispel magic effect on it. Sounds useful against the spider queen and her many buffs… except that one of these is of course Dispelling Buffer, which reduces the sword’s dispel chance to zero. Yes, zero."

 

[Tacgnol]

Edit: I just noticed, Augury of Chaos is a module for 1 to 6 characters of maximum level 2. So you, in theory should be able to level your party legally before starting?

You can even do it in the party creation screen, I think I recall doing it for the mini module made by pikachu.

Difficulty is insane as per this review?

https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=11599

Or was changed?

That was the original difficulty, aka the hardest difficulty now.
Besides this, many pre-combat options, like allies were added.

Just play on easy or normal if you don't like being kicked in the balls.

I mean, does he lie about this or this insanity is really true?

"- The first one is at the start of chapter 2, when you’ve just been stripped of your gear and have to fight with sticks and stones. Your party is level 3. It’s standing in a corridor, when it gets ambushed by a level 10 minotaur mage knight. The mino is pre-buffed with mage armour, blur and mirror image, gets a surprise round and always opens with a Web spell. Once your dudes are caught in the web, the monster can clobber you senseless with its superior melee reach, which only gets bigger thanks to the Enlarge spell that it usually casts on its second turn.

- The second is an obvious “puzzle” fight. When you’re still armed with sticks and stones in chapter 2, and your party may be level 3-4, you come across a death dragon. Fortunately, a fight before this one gives you a mace of disruption that has a chance to instakill undead. So what is very clearly expected of you, is to take the mace and hope you trigger the effect against the dragon. The caveat is that the chance to trigger it is, I think, 5%.

- The third is an infamous spider queen battle. This comes in chapter 3, and your party will be well above level 10 at this point. The start is relatively innocent – you come across a mob of giant spiders, with some caster-spiders among them. However, after two turns, a spider queen spawns in a corner of the arena, with three more caster-spiders to accompany it. The queen is a level 22 wizard with nearly 600 HP and all the spells and pre-buffs that I outlined earlier. She opens with accelerated spell and a double cast of prismatic void. As if that were not enough, after a few more turns, a gigantic adamantine statue comes to life from out of nowhere, with two more caster spiders. I think the statue can do twelve attacks a turn with its four magic two-handed weapons, though I’m not even sure anymore. Also, it explodes on death for massive damage. It's worth noting as well that just before the fight you find an excellent anti-magic greatsword that has a dispel magic effect on it. Sounds useful against the spider queen and her many buffs… except that one of these is of course Dispelling Buffer, which reduces the sword’s dispel chance to zero. Yes, zero."

Roxor's review was accurate for the release version back in Summer 2020.

First: You still get stripped of your gear, but the minotaur knight encounter is gone, at least on normal.

Second: I assume Roxor was referring to the crypt puzzle with the second, and yes that's still quite hard, but you are more likely to be level 7-8 now which makes a big difference.

Third: Spider queen is still crazy, but it is an entirely optional fight. She still does a save or die insta kill on her first turn, you have to grapple or stop her casting or you die.

One big thing that has changed since Roxor wrote the review is the addition of the village at the start. It gets you to level 4 before you start the sewers, previously you started the sewers at level 1.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I mean, does he lie about this or this insanity is really true?

[...]

It's all true.

Playing early versions felt like being slapped by an angry fisherman and then kicked in the balls before being drowned in the toilets.

But players were ready for it, 20XX games were like being spoonfed guano.
The alternative (KotC 2) tastes like life.

 

[Tacgnol]

Darth Canoli

Incidentally, is the minotaur knight sewer encounter still there on Archmage, or did Pierre remove it entirely?

In all honesty I imagine it would be a lot easier now that you start the sewers at a higher level anyway.

 

[dacencora]

First: You still get stripped of your gear, but the minotaur knight encounter is gone, at least on normal.

Is it really gone? It used to only appear if you opened the gate noisily IIRC. There was definitely a way to skip it in the original version. I remember getting ambushed by it the first couple of times until I found out you could bypass it.

 

[Tacgnol]

Entirely possible it's still there and I've just managed to skip it on the last two playthroughs.

Either way, I imagine it's a lot easier now the party is a few levels higher.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Is it really gone? It used to only appear if you opened the gate noisily IIRC. There was definitely a way to skip it in the original version. I remember getting ambushed by it the first couple of times until I found out you could bypass it.

You're probably right, I thought it was the druid but that might be it, I remember not having it on earlier version but got the Minotaur during my last playthrough.

I don't think Pierre removed anything, so far, be he might modify the tutorial adventure so if I was you, I'd make a save of the actual version, Steamtards might yet take their toll.

 

[Jvegi]

I knew it, another patch. I guess I'll have to download the 2 gig file from his site again, move files manually, and hope the saves work correctly.

Or, wait for another year...

 

[Tacgnol]

I knew it, another patch. I guess I'll have to download the 2 gig file from his site again, move files manually, and hope the saves work correctly.

Or, wait for another year...

It's just a hotfix for the moon crypt puzzle anyway iirc, so if you've already got past that it probably doesn't matter.