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Kotor 2

hayst

Educated
Joined
Jan 15, 2023
Messages
128
Atris just seemed like an unnecessary appendage to the story for me, almost another Kreia when we already have a Kreia.
I think her build up and backstory connection to the exile is pretty well done. She has an interesting inner conflict between her own morality and institutional power in a way Kreia doesn't. Atris is like the inverse of the exile, too invested in the structures of the Jedi around her. It feels like its leading up to something big, so it's the payoff that doesn't work for me.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
13,260
Atris just seemed like an unnecessary appendage to the story for me, almost another Kreia when we already have a Kreia.
I think her build up and backstory connection to the exile is pretty well done. She has an interesting inner conflict between her own morality and institutional power in a way Kreia doesn't. Atris is like the inverse of the exile, too invested in the structures of the Jedi around her. It feels like its leading up to something big, so it's the payoff that doesn't work for me.
She deeply loved the Exile (if male) and wanted to join him in the Mandalorian Wars.
However, she found it easier to obey the Council and not go to war. She hated your character because you had the strength to follow your convictions, while she did not, and go to war in order to save the Outer Rim and its people from the butchery unleashed upon them by the Mandalorians.
 

hayst

Educated
Joined
Jan 15, 2023
Messages
128
Atris just seemed like an unnecessary appendage to the story for me, almost another Kreia when we already have a Kreia.
I think her build up and backstory connection to the exile is pretty well done. She has an interesting inner conflict between her own morality and institutional power in a way Kreia doesn't. Atris is like the inverse of the exile, too invested in the structures of the Jedi around her. It feels like its leading up to something big, so it's the payoff that doesn't work for me.
She deeply loved the Exile (if male) and wanted to join him in the Mandalorian Wars.
However, she found it easier to obey the Council and not go to war. She hated your character because you had the strength to follow your convictions, while she did not, and go to war in order to save the Outer Rim and its people from the butchery unleashed upon them by the Mandalorians.
Easier to obey the Council is what I mean when I said too invested in the Jedi. My problem is it doesn't do anything with that conflict besides make her look petty, which is a waste because it's pretty cool setup. In a Star Wars game with lots of gray areas it feels underwhelming to say a Jedi who found fault with the organization of the council because of it's inability to act in helping people would turn Sith.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
H9GGGnq.png

(there was a cool fight in here where Atton's fighting spirit activated after he'd fallen to the pink skinned lady, and he shot her in the back for huge sneak attack damage. Was very cool.)

Been playing with TSLRCM installed as a female Jedi Consular on difficult who dumped Strength and the beginning was quite fun. Atton and female General were using modified field pistols made while escaping Peragus. Had to use force powers and positioning a lot. Usually I just make a big strength bro who kills everything and fugs handmaiden (she's so pure).

0lnUEYi.png

Story feels more coherent playing a female. I will miss Handmaiden, but Atris being a jilted lover fit awkwardly and moments like Atton fearing the General's judgment about his past makes more sense.

Also, Atton is always right about everything. Kreia was a Sith witch messing with everyone's head all the time and Disciple was a spy.
Atris is still a bitch. Always was.
A lot of her issues make sense if your character is male.

Atris just seemed like an unnecessary appendage to the story for me, almost another Kreia when we already have a Kreia.

I agree with notpl in that I'm of the camp that thinks Avellone is a bit overrated (though I probably don't hate him as much as notpl evidently does :) ) and the highfalutin' aspects of KOTOR 2 that everyone lauds are almost its weakest point, where to me the strong suit of KOTOR 2 is that the levels are pretty well designed and the story well told (up until the point it seems that they lost steam). It's actually a solid game up to that point, with the dialogue mostly being interesting enough to have a wee think about now and then. By contrast, KOTOR has a fair number of rambling sections quite early on, where you're just yomping back and forth across maps; KOTOR 2 is more action-packed.

I don't think "the Star Wars universe" ever had any problem with morally grey characters, even in Force terms. Han Solo was one, Lando Calrissian another. IIRC the EU had a fair amount of exploration of the grey Jedi, and even KOTOR had Jolee Bindu ferchrissakes.
The problem there was that Atris was meant to replace Kreia as Darth Traya depending on your playthrough, but the game was rushed out for a Christmas release and Lucas Arts didn't permit them to finish the game post-release. Even with the Restored Content Mod, there is a lot of planned content, especially relating to Atris, that went unfinished.
 

Aphex81

Scholar
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
139
I think Kreia was just a vehicle for your run of the mill atheist/communist deconstruction of morality. Keep in mind that all sides are written by the Author including the Jedi Council. Instead of blaming the apprentices that succumbed to the dark side because they could not resist their lower instincts the game blames the teachings. The answer of course is a more "nuanced" more human approach wich just means a watered down version of the Jedi Kodex in order to erode it's strict rules. Instead of holding yourself to a higher standart the atheist/communist wants to bring everyone down to his lack of standarts.

Edit.: Actually it might be self aware about the message or even a meta commentary on deconstruction itself since Kreia is proven wrong in her assumptions multiple times if you play a light side Jedi and she is revealed to be a Sith.
 
Last edited:

Paladino

Novice
Joined
Aug 6, 2023
Messages
35
I think Kreia was just a vehicle for your run of the mill atheist/communist deconstruction of morality. Keep in mind that all sides are written by the Author including the Jedi Council. Instead of blaming the apprentices that succumbed to the dark side because they could not resist their lower instincts the game blames the teachings. The answer of course is a more "nuanced" more human approach wich just means a watered down version of the Jedi Kodex in order to erode it's strict rules. Instead of holding yourself to a higher standart the atheist/communist wants to bring everyone down to his lack of standarts.
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's pure nonsensical amoral nihilism and "anti-God" vitriol placed in a fictional world that's at its core a morality tale, which only makes it more jarring and stupid for a Star Wars fan like me.

I tried to play KotORII many times in a "let's see what it says if I stay true to the setting", but no, there's no way for the MC to correct the characters and their narrative because Avellone's ignorant/disingenuous approach permeates everything, including the most logical responses which are conveniently just bland and superficial.
 

Paladino

Novice
Joined
Aug 6, 2023
Messages
35
She ends up being a villain. But she's also Avellone's vehicle for his own misunderstandings about the mythology of the series, and misunderstandings of basic philosophical questions too. For instance, he pretends that having a destiny and having free will are two mutually exclusive concepts.
 

AW8

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,852
Location
North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
She ends up being a villain.
No, she's the villain, and she's the villain from the very start.

But she's also Avellone's vehicle for his own misunderstandings about the mythology of the series, and misunderstandings of basic philosophical questions too. For instance, he pretends that having a destiny and having free will are two mutually exclusive concepts.
You're mixing up the author with the fictional villain.



there's no way for the MC to correct the characters and their narrative because Avellone's ignorant/disingenuous approach permeates everything, including the most logical responses which are conveniently just bland and superficial.
Being able to convince Darth Traya to change her ways would be as ridiculous as Luke convincing the Emperor to stop being an evil asshole.
 

Paladino

Novice
Joined
Aug 6, 2023
Messages
35
She ends up being a villain.
No, she's the villain, and she's the villain from the very start.

Yes, and she's also the MC's mentor, and a lot of what she spouts you're meant to take as valid. And it is presented as valid. Wether she's the villain or not is irrelevant to the argument.

But she's also Avellone's vehicle for his own misunderstandings about the mythology of the series, and misunderstandings of basic philosophical questions too. For instance, he pretends that having a destiny and having free will are two mutually exclusive concepts.
You're mixing up the author with the fictional villain.

No, I'm familiar with what Avellone said over the years in regards to his take on the films' mythology, and his "problems" with the Force and certain factions. Those takes ended up being reflected on Kreia and other characters as well. That doesn't mean he subscribes to everything Kreia says. But a lot of it is a reflection of his takes on the whole thing.

there's no way for the MC to correct the characters and their narrative because Avellone's ignorant/disingenuous approach permeates everything, including the most logical responses which are conveniently just bland and superficial.
Being able to convince Darth Traya to change her ways would be as ridiculous as Luke convincing the Emperor to stop being an evil asshole.

That's not what I meant at all. I'm talking about arguing their point of view, their opinions and philosophies. But the MC's options are nothing but bland and superficial.

And again, it's not just Kreia. It's everything else as well. How the Jedi, their actions and philosophies are presented. And so on...
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,320
She ends up being a villain. But she's also Avellone's vehicle for his own misunderstandings about the mythology of the series, and misunderstandings of basic philosophical questions too. For instance, he pretends that having a destiny and having free will are two mutually exclusive concepts.

Because they are. To be fair free will is such an incoherent concept that's difficult to say for sure which other ideas it may contradict.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
13,260
She ends up being a villain. But she's also Avellone's vehicle for his own misunderstandings about the mythology of the series, and misunderstandings of basic philosophical questions too. For instance, he pretends that having a destiny and having free will are two mutually exclusive concepts.

Because they are. To be fair free will is such an incoherent concept that's difficult to say for sure which other ideas it may contradict.
Kreia referred to a Free Will which is independent from the Force itself.
Having recently finished my playthrough of Kotor2, her entire philosophy is an utter rejection of the Force, to break free from its influence. However, her way of enforcing this extremist and arguably insane view of the Force was evil (to expand the Malachor V wound in the Force so that it encompasses the entire Galaxy).
 

AW8

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,852
Location
North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yes, and she's also the MC's mentor, and a lot of what she spouts you're meant to take as valid. And it is presented as valid.
It's not. It's just a viewpoint, the player is free to agree or disagree with her, the whole Influence system is built around it. You can constantly mock her and tell her to stuff her teachings.

She's also completely alone. No one likes her. The Sith think her ideas are weakening them, the Jedi think her teachings are corrupting them. She never manages to convince either group of her worldview, only dominating them with superior power. Being more powerful does not mean she's right.

Wether she's the villain or not is irrelevant to the argument.
It strongly suggests that the writer does not share her worldview, otherwise she'd probably be the hero.

That's not what I meant at all. I'm talking about arguing their point of view, their opinions and philosophies. But the MC's options are nothing but bland and superficial.

And again, it's not just Kreia. It's everything else as well. How the Jedi, their actions and philosophies are presented. And so on...
The Jedi are your former bosses, and old. They're set in their ways. The Sith have been corrupted down to basically living ideas, they're also dead set in their ways.
You will never be able to change them - it's not that kind of game. You couldn't discuss philosophy with Zhar or Malak in the first game either. The meat of both games is to go out into the world and meet someone in need, then choosing whether to help him or kick him.
 

DY050503

Educated
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
58
Just finished the game days ago, a lot of characters in this game seems not able to express their opinions clearly or have logical discussions. Also, there is a lack of immersion in this game as the player to be the main character with a 'pre-plot setting'.
 

AdamReith

Magister
Patron
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
2,109
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Yeah, I never felt like the I was meaningful involved in the story of KOTOR 2. It was like watching a (bad) movie.
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
10,919
Location
Nottingham
Yeah, I never felt like the I was meaningful involved in the story of KOTOR 2. It was like watching a (bad) movie.
This is my issue with it.

After my recent, very enjoyable, return to KOTOR 1 and jumped straight into KOTOR 2 and I just felt like a bystander half the time.

The game glitched out a lot and the pacing wasn't great either, so I decided to jack it off after around 18 hours, but it mostly felt like unfulfilled potential up until that point.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
13,260
This is not a game that would benefit from difficulty mod.
The game would benefit from better enemy combat AI.
Them using their force powers more effectively, targetting your more vulnerable party members, etc.
 

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