Review KotOR first gushings at GameSpy

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Really? I've noticed another trend. If you post in this forum with a Wasteland or Fallout avatar, you're a jackass.

I may be a jackass, but Wasteland is a great game. Moral of the story: You can suck my jackass nuts after your done sucking Bio's.

 

[Volourn]

1. Oh? If that's true, than it was the Interplay Big Wigs who are ultimately responsible for FO's success since they ake the ultimate decisions. Hmm..

2.Well.. Every game has their share of people who find the game too easy, or too hard. More than few people whined about how 'easy' NWN OC was - espicially thd ragons. All I did was provide them a link to the spoilers ection,a nd the LONG list of people whining aboust so and so being too tough, and/or asking for advice. C'est la vie. I cna't go by others on this; just my own experience. Same with you.

3. Exception, or not, you never hear people whining that FF is tb. I wonder why that is? Oh, because, people liek the game. That's why. The internet does not equal common custome. Quite frnakly, I think most people who buy games just don't care if a game is tb or RT, or whatever; as lon as said combat is fun.

4. After TOEE; Tim Cain has lost the right to criticize any game about going for the bigger "plasma gun". And, quite frankly, I wholeheartedy disagree with his assement. I surely din't play FO2 for its ph@t lewt. I played it for all the reasons I stated about why I liked it plus the vintage multiple solution quests which FO2 had plenty of. FO2 was very much about exploring the exthics of post apolcalyptic society. Very much so. Just look at the racism in Vault City, the whole reasoning for the President's actions (one of my fave villains), and the various other cities which were almost all uniformly done great.

 

[Spazmo]

And, for the record, there are *two* seriously bitter assholes that do the news posts.

I knew you lubbed us, Voss.

TO RECAP!

NWN: sucks. BioWare: oh, my, do they suck. SquareSoft: Suck more than BioWare. KotOR: No. Arcanum: Yes. -Lord Ebonstone-: http://forums.interplay.com

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Guess I should add my two cents rather than just bash an idiot. :p

1. NWN - Good game, but way overrated. I really did not like the OC, but there is alot of the fan made modules out there that are quite excellent in both story and content. Add some decent scripting and there are some of them out there that way outshine what BIO did with the game.

2. TOEE - Good game, yes, but it was just another dungeon crawl. Nothing truly spectacular with the exception of the TB combat options. But even they were just candy coating because you didn't really need to use them if you made your characters right. Now, play the game with nothing but a party of rogues and those options come in handy.

3. Arcanum - I never really got much chance to play this game extensively, but I really liked what I played. Alot. I am currently working on getting myself a copy of the game and then I will play it through some more. Ebonstone calling the game crap was obviously just something to get everyone riled up. He's a prick. Ignore him.

Geeze, I turn away from the boards for seven hours and it goes to hell in a handbasket. But that's why I love this place.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh? If that's true, than it was the Interplay Big Wigs who are ultimately responsible for FO's success since they ake the ultimate decisions. Hmm..

I meant people who make actual decisons, not the ones who just greenlight a project without going into details or controlling every aspect of it.

Exception, or not, you never hear people whining that FF is tb. I wonder why that is? Oh, because, people liek the game. That's why

Of course people will buy what they like, but publishers and developers have a different opinion: TB is bad, RT is good or Sci-Fi is bad, Fantasy is good. Go figure.

After TOEE; Tim Cain has lost the right to criticize any game about going for the bigger "plasma gun". And, quite frankly, I wholeheartedy disagree with his assement. I surely din't play FO2 for its ph@t lewt. I played it for all the reasons I stated about why I liked it plus the vintage multiple solution quests which FO2 had plenty of. FO2 was very much about exploring the exthics of post apolcalyptic society. Very much so. Just look at the racism in Vault City, the whole reasoning for the President's actions (one of my fave villains), and the various other cities which were almost all uniformly done great.

ToEE is a dungeon crawler, and as such it's a good, very solid game, so I don't think that Tim Cain lost any rights because of it. As for the ethics in FO2, it's ...I dunno... too bland, too cliche. The Master wasn't a villain, he's got into the whole mess by accident, and then he thought that he's doing the right thing, that he's going to solve the problem of mankind, etc. Now that's something. The president wasn't nearly that interesting, the line about making experiments on the vaults was way over the top, etc. The VC's racism felt out of place as well. It was unnatural, somehow the logic was lacking. FO1 showed you cities trying to adjust to the new life, FO2 cities didn't have that feel, they looked like the adjustment is over, and that somehow didn't feel right, the logic was broken.

Anyway, back to KOTOR. We had a conversation about quests long time ago, so now that you're playing the game, what's your opinion on quests and dialogues?

 

[Voss]

I knew you lubbed us, Voss.

Of course I do. It brightens my day to deal with people more bitter than me.


Otaku: ToEE. Improved feint is such a lovely thing.

The game (and some recent PnP sessions) have made me realize why some people really hate D&D 3.0/3.5 there can be an absurd number of random, temporary modifiers flying around at any one time.

 

[taks]

Which still doesn't stop it from having roleplaying.

nope, the lack of roleplaying stops it from having roleplaying...

mark

 

[taks]

while the fact that Tim Cain made Fallout means that he could do it again given proper resources

uh, tim cain was a PROGRAMMER on fallout. get your facts straight. he had some design duties, but very little compared to his programming duties. he did not "make" fallout... he "contributed" to the development of fallout. only a few folks from the fallout team are actually currently employed by troika (they left after the bomb that was arcanum). quite frankly, his strong programming abilities are very apparent in ToEE... his lack of game design abilities are as well.

mark

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

1.) Troika < Bioware. Yes, it's my opinion. It's backed by a truckload of fact, though. (SEE: Sales, Profitability, Reviews, General Consensus.)

None of those are facts saying that BioWare is better. Sales and profit are the same thing, and no indication of being "Better", but more being popular with the mainstream. Let's face it, the mainstream is why Deer Hunter is the best selling game ever made. Does that mean the developers who made Deer Hunter are the best developers to ever walk the earth? Don't think so.

Reviews and general consensus are both opinions, which kind of rules them out as to being facts. Reviews in this day and age are often bought and paid for by publishers in exchange for content, free games, free trinkets, and so forth. General consensus, well, see my point about Deer Hunter. I'd say most people who really love KotOR are more wrapped up in the combat animations and shiny, embossed Sith trooper armor than they are in the mechanics of the game.

2.) Credibility. This is one of the most biased game sites I've ever visited. The gay little cracks at the end of every news item aren't clever, they're just indicative of one seriously bitter asshole.

I'm biased towards what I like and don't like. That's being honest. What's not honest are all the sites that claimed NWN campaign was the best role-playing experience ever made - and that'd pretty much be all of them except this one.

Another thing that's not honest is claiming that KotOR's interface and controls were completely redone for the PC. It's a console port, and the controls and interface stink to high heaven of it being such.

uh, tim cain was a PROGRAMMER on fallout. get your facts straight. he had some design duties, but very little compared to his programming duties. he did not "make" fallout... he "contributed" to the development of fallout. only a few folks from the fallout team are actually currently employed by troika (they left after the bomb that was arcanum). quite frankly, his strong programming abilities are very apparent in ToEE... his lack of game design abilities are as well.

Most of them are still there. The only one that left was Chris Jones, who was a contract programmer. However, if you think Tim Cain did so little of the design, why don't you re-read the credits for Fallout, particularly the credits for developing the SPECIAL system.

 

[Vault Dweller]

while the fact that Tim Cain made Fallout means that he could do it again given proper resources

uh, tim cain was a PROGRAMMER on fallout. get your facts straight.

Tim Cain was a LEAD programmer and a producer.

quite frankly, his strong programming abilities are very apparent in ToEE... his lack of game design abilities are as well.

Yes, of course, the solid TB combat shows nothing of his skills, while minor bugs clearly demonstrate what a failure Tim Cain is. And Arcanum of course sucks too

 

[Jed]

I've noticed another trend. If you post in this forum with a Wasteland or Fallout avatar, you're a jackass.

Fuck off, wet-ass.

Do you honestly think Fallout was all Tim Cain? Fallout 2 was a fine RPG, and Cain was gone by then. There were a ton more people involved in Fallout than just Mr. Cain--Troika's initial shoddy products prove that fact pretty damn readily.

Yup, there was also Jason Anderson, Leonard Boyarsky, Jesse Reynolds, Mike McArthur, & Sharon Shellman, to name a few otherss. Oh, and all these people now work for Troika. Y'know, FYI.

For the record, I'm not here to defend Bioware.

So what then? Just to tell us we're stupid and BIASED! for not liking them? How does that qualify as not defending Bioware? Oh, I get it--you just want to open our perspectives to some companies that are objectively better than the ones that make the games we like. I mean, wow...those are some big facts you got there. No, seriously. Put them back in your pants now, please.

Bioware's not my favorite RPG dev. crew by any means though... I think that award would either go to old-school Black Isle, (ie, pre-Lionheart),

...So you liked PS and IWD? RPG-dom's greatest adventure game, and a mediocre dungeon crawl. Wow. That's some great taste you got there, I mean that objectively, of course.

or maybe Jeff Vogel's Spiderweb Software.

But he doesn't have tons of favorable reviews, huge profits, and the general consensus is that there are no particle effects in his games. How does this jibe with your "objective facts"?

My only guilty pleasure I deserve to be flamed for is my SquareEnix (formerly Squaresoft) obsession.

This explains the holes in your logic.

Incidentally, I think the things you cite as detrimental to our "credibility," mainly the fact that we have actual opinions outside of the "general consensus" is actually what gives us more credibility than other similar sites. Nobody here, save for Visceris, is influenced by pay or free trinkets from shitbag companies with deep pockets. Well, Volurn is on the Bioware Street Team, so he gets paid to give "testimonials," but that's a whole other story....

 

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

Incidentally, I think the things you cite as detrimental to our "credibility," mainly the fact that we have actual opinions outside of the "general consensus" is actually what gives us more credibility than other similar sites.

Do you have actual opinions? Not that I can see... any opinion I've seen on this site is 100% unbridled, counter-culture, mental masturbation. There's no orignality here, only the "individuality" of, popular opinion is yes, you say no. Popular opinion is red, you say blue.

I didn't know so many of you loved Arcanum so much. Most places I've gone have been more or less in agreement that it wasn't what it could have been, and in its final form wasn't that great a game anyway. The ToEE love is bizarre too. IWD is a mediocre dungeon crawl... but ToEE isn't? Is that because Troika developed it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pre-Lionheart BI also include Fallout and Fallout 2? I like those games too--Fallout is probably my favorite CRPG of all time. Am I "hardcore" into it? Nope. Good game, I hope for a third someday, but I'm not sending death threats to the fellow making a console title out of it. It's a shame they're making that instead of FO3, but *shrug* there's not much I can do to change that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Do you have actual opinions? Not that I can see... any opinion I've seen on this site is 100% unbridled, counter-culture, mental masturbation. There's no orignality here, only the "individuality" of, popular opinion is yes, you say no. Popular opinion is red, you say blue.

You are mistaken. Nobody here cares or keeps truck of what the latest popular opinion is. Our opinions are based on arguments. I haven't seen many stand alone "it sucks" or it's kewl" opinions. If you look through the threads you'd find detailed explanation of every opinion. In fact, that what I would have done - looked through the threads to see what the site is all about and whether or not it's right for me.

I didn't know so many of you loved Arcanum so much.

See above

Most places I've gone have been more or less in agreement that it wasn't what it could have been, and in its final form wasn't that great a game anyway.

Most people are stupid, so no big surprises here

The ToEE love is bizarre too. IWD is a mediocre dungeon crawl... but ToEE isn't? Is that because Troika developed it?

Can't speak for everyone, but I love ToEE's TB combat. The best I've ever seen.

Good game, I hope for a third someday, but I'm not sending death threats to the fellow making a console title out of it.

Neither am I

It's a shame they're making that instead of FO3, but *shrug* there's not much I can do to change that.

I used to believe that too, till I saw the reaction of Interplay to the FOBOS "riots". Nobody likes bad publicity.

 

[Volourn]

X? I get paid? I wish I knew that. Setiously, I wish you'd stop spreading flat out lies that you cna't even bein to abck up.

VD, I'll be posting stuff on quest when i finish the first planet. Been playing the game for 6 hours (at least according to the game which I know it's lying as I've played it for much more; but oh well). Overall, I like the quests. Very few of the quests are simple fed exes; but then I'm still relatively early in the game.

 

[Jed]

Fallout pre-dates Black Isle. BG too, if I'm not mistaken. Downhill on both accounts once BI forms...

 

[Voss]

Do you have actual opinions? Not that I can see... any opinion I've seen on this site is 100% unbridled, counter-culture, mental masturbation. There's no orignality here, only the "individuality" of, popular opinion is yes, you say no. Popular opinion is red, you say blue.

Feel free to actually read a lot of posts in these forums. Particularly when it comes to Arcanum and ToEE. Theres a lot of fondness for expressed for Arcanum and ToEE (to a slightly lesser extent), but there is also plenty of criticism about the areas that those games are weak in.

Its interesting that you're reacting to counter what you perceive to be the popular opinion on these forums though. Particularly since you're arguing with roughly 5 people.

 

[Jed]

1.) Troika < Bioware. Yes, it's my opinion. It's backed by a truckload of fact, though. (SEE: Sales, Profitability, Reviews, General Consensus.)

I think your logic here is the most offensive part of your presence, and why no one here is interested in your whining. By this same logic, Star Trek: Enterprise is TEH BESTEST SCIFY EVAR!!! Nevermind how much better shows like Babylon 5 and Farscape are/were. And if I may be allowed to continue my analogy, this would be a site more interested in disecting the plots of Babs & Farscape than stroking the overbloated and uninteresting pap churned out by the Star Trek industry. There--constructive dialogue. Where's yours?

 

[Rayt]

Fallout pre-dates Black Isle. BG too, if I'm not mistaken. Downhill on both accounts once BI forms...

Are you sure? My BG copy has a Black Isle logo slapped on it.

 

[Rayt]

1.) Troika < Bioware. Yes, it's my opinion. It's backed by a truckload of fact, though. (SEE: Sales, Profitability, Reviews, General Consensus.)

I think your logic here is the most offensive part of your presence, and why no one here is interested in your whining. By this same logic, Star Trek: Enterprise is TEH BESTEST SCIFY EVAR!!! Nevermind how much better shows like Babylon 5 and Farscape are/were. And if I may be allowed to continue my analogy, this would be a site more interested in disecting the plots of Babs & Farscape than stroking the overbloated and uninteresting pap churned out by the Star Trek industry. There--constructive dialogue. Where's yours?

That's not really fair, as Babylon 5 and Farscape have plotlines that run for many episodes, while Star Trek plots are crammed in one episode. It's different set up.

 

[Jed]

That's not really fair, as Babylon 5 and Farscape have plotlines that run for many episodes, while Star Trek plots are crammed in one episode. It's different set up.

That's absolutely not true. The set up for Enterprise is not significantly dissimilar to either of those other, greater shows.

Are you sure? My BG copy has a Black Isle logo slapped on it.

No, I'm not positive about that. But I know they weren't around for Fallout, yet they've retroactively slapped their logo on the FO site, so a little revisionism here or there, it's all in a day's work, right?

 

[Voss]

That's not really fair, as Babylon 5 and Farscape have plotlines that run for many episodes, while Star Trek plots are crammed in one episode. It's different set up.

One of Star Trek's many flaws, which goes a long way to keep it low quality. At the end of the episode, everything is exactly the same... Except for 'very special episodes'.

Though Enterprise is reaching for the long story arc, but doesn't have the writing or acting talent to pull it off.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Did I hear Babylon 5?! :D

That show was incredible and my all time favorite series ever. The only thing wrong that I can point out with the show was the bouncing around of certain characters, but that was no fault of the writers. It was merely the actors/actresses leaving the show for good reasons. Talia Winters is a good example. The actress that played her is married irl to the actor who played Garibaldi (my personal fave character) and they have children. She eventually decided to leave the show to be with her kids more and so they had to write off her character. It happens.

Actually, there is one more gripe I can bring up about the show. When TNT got the rights to it, Turner told them to make the explosions more... well... explosioney. One thing I loved about the early episodes of B5 was the realistic portrayal of explosions in space. No big fireballs that roll on forever, just flashes that suffocated in the lack of air around them and fizzled away quickly.

All in all though, it was a wonderful series and I was glad when they started releasing them on DVD. I just hope season three comes out soon.

Edit: STNG had some decent episodes and I loved the movie First Contact, but all in all, ST is just too overrated.

 

[Voss]

Season three is out already. Bought it about a month ago.
Season Four is due in January.
Why they didn't release it for X-mas sales, I've no idea.
But I'm taking a certain amount of pleasure in the idea that the waiting is keeping me between Tick and Tock.

Season Five... well, I'm not too keen on it, so it'll come when it comes.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Season three is out already. Bought it about a month ago.

Really? Wow. I need to get out more. LOL
Good thing I just landed a job.

The people where I'm staying had never seen the show until I got seasons one and two on DVD. Now they are screaming for more.

Season Five did have it's problems, but that was mostly thanks to Ted Turner flexing his muscles to get things done the way he wanted. He was financing it, and took advantage of that fact.

 

[Voss]

Yeah. The git.
Turner is an evil, evil man. And not in that evil is TEH KEWL sense that the kiddies have now adays.

It just didn't flow the way the other seasons did. And I just didn't like the way the indep telepaths were handled (both how they acted and how they were reacted to).

As a note, if you're stateside, Best Buy has it (or had it) at a good price.