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Legend of Grimrock

Gord

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Feb 16, 2011
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If anything I'd hope that they offer the possibility to build characters that reduce the necessity to waltz around, either through higher efficiency of evasion or (heavy) armor.
Basically giving you real tanks if you level your npc right vs. putting the points elsewhere (offense, secondary, etc.) and requiring dancing.
 

Metro

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That would be the better solution. They need to devote a lot more time to the character system in general. While I think the breakdowns/structure was okay in the first game the actual talents were fairly lackluster. That is, you were better off just going with one main skill and possibly maxing it out versus spreading your points around.
 

Blaine

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Except for your mage(s), particularly if you decide to specialize in Earth your first time playing, not realizing that 3/4 of the enemies are immune to poison.

Yes, I am still mad about that. Newbie traps suck.

On a different note, I didn't realize there were so many ardent fans of the Dungeon Master Two-Step on the Codex.
 

Metro

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I wouldn't say I'm an ardent fan but I do enjoy it. More of an issue of wanting to preserve that sub-genre versus morphing it into another -- not everyone's cup of tea but there should be a place for them. While brainstorming ideas of what I'd want to see in Grimlock 2 I found myself transforming it into Arx Fatalis. Of course, it's not Arx Fatalis, nor should it be. It is what it is... but hopefully someone tackles that sub-genre eventually. Maybe even Arkane, again.

As for my first playthough I sort of 'cheated' in that I looked to see what skills were particularly worthless. I tend to do that with most games. Not that I want to min/max but if there's some fundamental design flaws I'd just as soon as avoid them as they aren't really a part of the game's balance. I went frost and stopped at improved frost bolt, then put some in that supportive arcane branch.
 

Aldebaran

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If they want to tone down the dancing next time around, then a seemingly simple solution is to give creatures strikes which sweep over multiple tiles. Furthermore, if you are hit while moving, then you take more damage through an armour loss/attack of opportunity mechanic. That way the combat mambo will still be a viable play style, but it won't always be the optimal one.

Also it would be nice if magic was made into something more interesting and varied with the sequel.
 

Lady_Error

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Never got it for $15, but now GOG.com is offering a discount of 80%, as long as you pick 5 discounted games. The list also includes Witcher, The Inquisitor, Sam & Max...
 

Unkillable Cat

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If they want to tone down the dancing next time around, then a seemingly simple solution is to give creatures strikes which sweep over multiple tiles. Furthermore, if you are hit while moving, then you take more damage through an armour loss/attack of opportunity mechanic. That way the combat mambo will still be a viable play style, but it won't always be the optimal one.

I've mentioned this before, but Captive had one solution to this: There was a monster that moved SO FAST that you had to devote some serious concentration to movement in order to be able to Two Step it properly. It was one of the high-end monsters, so I only fought like one or two of them, but imagine running into six or seven of them? They hit pretty hard too.

A multiple-tile attack would yield some interesting results, or a remains-in-play area attack that effectively denied a player from entering a tile. I think that would be ideal. The original EOB was supposed to have Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill in its spell repertoire, Grimrock could maybe use something like that.

But the reason I posted in this thread was because I spotted an interesting Grimrock mod on NexusMods, called "The Master Mod". It's by Komag, whom some people may recognize as the Keeper of Metal and Gold, a vast Thief Fan Mission archive. The problem is, there are only two ways to get the mod: From NexusMods, which only allow you to download files larger than 2MB if you sign up (I ain't got time for that, and it's a 95MB file) and via Steam, which won't let you download the file if you don't have the game on Steam.
 

vorvek

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If they want to tone down the dancing next time around, then a seemingly simple solution is to give creatures strikes which sweep over multiple tiles. Furthermore, if you are hit while moving, then you take more damage through an armour loss/attack of opportunity mechanic. That way the combat mambo will still be a viable play style, but it won't always be the optimal one.

Also it would be nice if magic was made into something more interesting and varied with the sequel.

You're talking of dancing as if it was an exploit, when it was actually the only way you could fight most of the enemies on Normal difficulty and beyond, as even the toughest character you could create can barely absorb the damage from two or three hits at most. If they don't change the miss chance and damage, forcing you to just stay there getting your face ripped off would make no sense. And frankly, I really doubt this chances for LoG2, as that's pretty much the style of the game they are going for.

The original EOB was supposed to have Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill in its spell repertoire, Grimrock could maybe use something like that.

I'm pretty sure there was a poison spell in Grimrock that stayed for a while on the tile where you casted it. One of the lower level ones, if I'm not mistaken (it's been a while).
 

Mother Russia

Andhaira
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Codex 2013
If they want to tone down the dancing next time around, then a seemingly simple solution is to give creatures strikes which sweep over multiple tiles. Furthermore, if you are hit while moving, then you take more damage through an armour loss/attack of opportunity mechanic. That way the combat mambo will still be a viable play style, but it won't always be the optimal one.

I've mentioned this before, but Captive had one solution to this: There was a monster that moved SO FAST that you had to devote some serious concentration to movement in order to be able to Two Step it properly. It was one of the high-end monsters, so I only fought like one or two of them, but imagine running into six or seven of them? They hit pretty hard too.

A multiple-tile attack would yield some interesting results, or a remains-in-play area attack that effectively denied a player from entering a tile. I think that would be ideal. The original EOB was supposed to have Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill in its spell repertoire, Grimrock could maybe use something like that.

But the reason I posted in this thread was because I spotted an interesting Grimrock mod on NexusMods, called "The Master Mod". It's by Komag, whom some people may recognize as the Keeper of Metal and Gold, a vast Thief Fan Mission archive. The problem is, there are only two ways to get the mod: From NexusMods, which only allow you to download files larger than 2MB if you sign up (I ain't got time for that, and it's a 95MB file) and via Steam, which won't let you download the file if you don't have the game on Steam.

Can't you activate the game on steam even if you bought it on GoG? You don't need to be online to be able to play it even if you bought it from steam, so I don't really see why you wouldn't buy it on steam unless you don't want steam installed on your PC and/or wanna support GoG (or the devs directly, which IMO is best)
 

neilsouth

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Dec 24, 2007
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234

Lady_Error

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Played Grimrock for the first time. It is as boring as I imagined it would be.

Without a real story it's just mindless hack'n'slash.
 

Themadcow

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Feb 17, 2012
Messages
315
People wanting something different should just look elsewhere. The original game, while not perfect, delivered pretty much the exact experience that fans of this sub-genre wanted. To change that too drastically would be like, I dunno, turning the Dragon Age series into a shitty ARPG.
 

Lady_Error

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Played Grimrock for the first time. It is as boring as I imagined it would be.

Without a real story it's just mindless hack'n'slash.

So you have never played Dungeon Master, of which this game is based off of?

I remember enjoying Dungeon Master back in the day, and even sort of liking Part 2. I don't know what makes Grimrock so boring. I guess with that sort of graphical opulence you could expect at least some NPC's, maybe shops, side-quests.
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
People wanting something different should just look elsewhere. The original game, while not perfect, delivered pretty much the exact experience that fans of this sub-genre wanted. To change that too drastically would be like, I dunno, turning the Dragon Age series into a shitty ARPG.
I agree. The game does what it intends to do and fills the exact niche it was supposed to. Trying to cram a storyline and emotional engagement into it would be ill-fitting.

It's an atmospheric Dungeon Master clone and it's fun if that's what you want. I hope the sequel improves upon it, though, because some aspects like character building are pretty mediocre in the original.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Well, I've signed up with NexusMods and downloaded the "Master Quest" mod for Grimrock. That should keep me going over the Easter holiday, since there's nothing family-related going on.

I'm wondering if there's anyone else here on the Codex playing it, because I'm having some trouble with the "Time and Tide" puzzle on Level 4. In the original you were supposed to weigh down the pressure plate, wait for the teleport to appear then toss a throwing knife through it. In MQ, nothing goes through the teleporter, no matter when or what I throw.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Right, so I've played through the "Master Quest" mod for Grimrock, and it mainly does two things for the game: It ups the difficulty of the puzzles, and it adds a short sequence after the endgame where you make your escape from Mount Grimrock. Monster encounters are mostly left alone, though there are instances where you deal with tougher varieties of the standard monsters. Oh, and the mod scales the monsters to your level, meaning that it presents a challenge even to a powerhouse party.

There are 2 new "bossfights" to be found, but one of them is optional. The mod also does something else which REALLY makes Grimrock look awesome, it adds z-axis planes that are visible around you. What this means is that what would otherwise be dull passages become large grandiose halls, and in one memorable case with towering statues surrounding a bottomless chasm. Small 'levels inside levels' are also possible, which is best shown when you finally reach the Tomb of Designers.

My party consisted of a Human Fighter, Lizardmen Rogue that focused on melee attack, a Human Rogue that focused on ranged attacks and a Insectoid Mage specializing in Fire and Air magic. I got this party to Level 17 via this mod.

Now I'm gonna have a go at the Chaos Key mod.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Ugh - I gave up on the Chaos Key after a couple of hours of play. Not my cup of tea. Reasons include:

# There's a concept in level/gaming design that could be called the Quadruple Lock - basically your progress is impeded by a door that needs four keys to unlock, and each key is located down its own path that often has a theme. These doors are usually found near the endgame, and serve as cheap filler material. Guess what the Chaos Key STARTS with? First a Double Lock, then a full-fledged Quadruple Lock right after it. These doors slow down any progress to a crawl, and for a game/mod to START with one is just a bad idea, let alone two.

# There's a monster that pops up at regular intervals, it's unkillable and spams spells at you. Its only saving grace is that it rarely sticks around for longer than a few seconds. I imported a strong party, where its damage barely fazed me, but I can guess that a freshly-started party would be butchered pretty quickly by this monster. It popped up FOUR times during the two hours I played the mod. Not cool.

# An invisible maze where the path is revealed if you wait long enough? Why even bother?

# A puzzle where you must step on 6 pressure plates to punch out a number. 7 out of every 10 people who solved this puzzle just stomped about randomly, clueless as to what the solution was.

And from what little I could glean about what lies ahead in this mod, there was NOTHING to look forward to. This mod seems to be heavily inspired by Chaos Strikes Back, but I doubt that CSB had worse pacing than this.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Had a run through a couple of Grimrock mods. "The Mine of Malen Vael" was first. THIS is how you do a good mod. All the workers in a mine have disappeared, and your party is hired to investigate. It's only 5 floors deep, and they all use the same tileset, but that doesn't detract from the experience. It's clearly aimed at a 'fresh' party, where some puzzles provide a real challenge, like the one with the Ogre. The level design and puzzles feel fresh and interesting and are never too complicated. The worst one is the "Serve dinner" puzzle, which is one of the first puzzles encountered, but once past that the game eases up a little. There are no new monsters, only reskins of old ones, but I still strongly recommend this mod.

Then I had a look at "Eye of the Dragon", which is a 'remake' of sorts of Eye of the Beholder 2. It has the same level layout (and even has an outdoor forest area) but in some cases it rips EOB2 graphics straight out of the classic game. I encountered no new monsters, just the standard ones re-hashed into EOB2 roles, and while the... ah-hem, DRAGON temple looked nice, it also felt kinda cheap in places. There are no Clerics to welcome you, no old woman to lead you to the temple, no adventurer looking for her sister, so the temple looks and feels abandoned. What's worse, the first button you come across in the game INSTA-KILLS your party, and you haven't even found a Crystal yet at that point. Despite this being the final version, I'd say this mod is half-finished, at best. I do NOT recommend this mod. I'd rather hold out for the 'true' EOB remake that's being done with the Grimrock engine.
 

Multi-headed Cow

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Thanks for all these writeups on Grimrock mods. Appreciate it. :salute:
 

Unkillable Cat

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Had a go at one more. 'Dungeon Master - Lord of Chaos' sounds like the mod to end all mods, with 70+ levels and tons of extra goodies in it. This is clearly a mod where Quantity is chosen over Quality. On the plus side, it uses some REALLY creepy-looking tilesets, giving one the feeling that you're really not welcome in the dungeon. There are also some well-chosen scenery dotted around to re-inforce that feeling, and the choice of ambient music is pretty good. A point that's sort of in the middle is the useage of various images that are plastered on the walls. These are your typical gothic/fantasy images, of vampires, skeletons, creepy eyes, etc. At first they really look cool, but they're just scattered all over the place, if they had been used with some care, it would have really upped the scare factor of the mod.

The downsides... are many. First off, while there is good ambient music, there are also 'ambient sounds' used. Screams, sudden noises, thumps, creaking doors, thunderclaps, fiendish laughter, it's like someone dropped a sound studio in this mod. These sounds are EVERYWHERE, and they're LOUD. Again, moderation in usage would have done loads to make this mod better, this is just too much and it becomes annoying really quick. But wait, there's more. I made it to Level 8 of this mod (Area of Darkness) and the quality of the level design is... pathetic. One level was just a spiraling narrow passageway with the occasional 3x3 room at the corners. One level was one long winding passage full of monsters. One level was a mix of large rooms and long winding passageways, only to inform me once I reached the end that I had to find four secret buttons to exit the level. Backtracking has never been this boring. The 'labyrinth' is a large block of net-like passages in which you must find 5 buttons to open the exit. Level-wise, the whole mod is filler. There are NO traps, no ambushes, but damage is sometimes dealt in your face for no good reason. There is no thought, ingenuity, or clever usage of space involved.

Equipment-wise, this mod goes schizo. You start out finding a room with basic equipment, only to stumble upon a veritable armoury on the next level where you're given equipment that a high-level character is barely qualified to use! This stuff is more powerful than any of the weapons found in the original Grimrock! And later on I found an upgrade for all of them! My fighter found a badass flail that swings faster than my Rogue swings his dagger. Also, I found some flaming rocks in a fireplace, and each of them weighed 10 tons! WTF?!?

I only have one question here: When is the author going to hit puberty?

NOT recommended.
 

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