In Progress Let's Play Legend of Cao Cao.

[Azira]

It's all good, we all fail that check once in a while. Heck, I didn't even read through their rules before making an account for my first LP. That could've turned awkward pretty fast..

 

[Cool name]

Odd, I've played this game 7 times but I don't recall there being even a vaguely romantic relationship between Cao Cao and Diao Chan. Maybe it's time for a replay.

It's nothing too impressive. There are two or three scenes in which she acts like a smiten highschool girl, and later there are one or two Cao Cao scenes that can be read like that if you want. As I always do the red route I don't know if the Cao Cao ones are always there or not, but the Diao Chan ones did not trigger at all. Considering Teh Romance is not very, you know, romantic it was kind of WOAH, WHAT?

But then it goes and I think it never comes back, which is kind of reasonable given she's with Lu Bu for, like, what? Seven years? Eight?

Lu Bu, ruining great pairings since 190 AD.



Edit: Well, Teh Romance is not very romantic unless you play...

Spoiler

 

[Cool name]

www.cubeupload.com

No bandwidth limit, files up to 5mb. Even keeps your file names if you have an account. Interface isn't too fancy but supports multiple uploads (just drag and drop)

How long does Cubeupload take to generate links or whatever it is it does? I just uploaded, uhm... 150+ images ( ) and only about a third of them appear when I preview the update. The others appear in my Cubeupload folder and stuffies, but when I put the link in my browser it says 'not found' and they don't appear in the update neither.

 

[Excidium]

No idea, I never uploaded more than ~20 so it's always instant to me

 

[Cool name]

No idea, I never uploaded more than ~20 so it's always instant to me

I'll go murderize chinese guys while for a while and then try again, then. Thank you, anyway.

 

[Cool name]

Chapter 7.

Cao Cao is weird; the Coalition is lazy; Diao Chan is hot; Lu Bu is dumb; Dong Zhuo is dumb; Wang Yun is dumb.






Scene 1. Main camp of the Coalition.

Spoiler

Red Cao follows the book pretty closely here. He pursues Dong Zhuo by himself and is ambushed by a great force. In the book he is forced to retreat but there are many nice little moments during the battle and the escape: Xiahou Dun battles Lu Bu for a short while, and when he retreats it is not because he is losing the duel but because Lu Bu's calls on his army to advance. Cao Hong gives his horse to a wounded Cao Cao, follows him on foot, and then carries him across a river on his back. And when Xu Rong, one of Dong Zhuo's lackeys, manages to catch up with them Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan appear with a few survivors from the main battle. Xiahou Dun ROFLSTOMPS Xu Rong and then they route his forces.

In the game you will be ambushed by Li Ru, Lu Bu, Li Jue, and Guo Si. If your forces are taking a beating you will get the choice to change the victory condition from defeating the enemy forces to getting Cao Cao to the exit once you survive half the turn limit. It is a pretty fun battle, and even when you do not change history that much as the battle is long and brutal enough for Dong Zhuo to put a lot of geography between the two of you and for your forces to be too battered to keep pursuing him it still feels pretty badass.

You also get a prize horsie as a reward. It is not that useful (+1 Movement) but, like, horsie!

Blue Cao on the other hand, uhm... I don't really know. He's just random.

'Who are you and what have you done with the real Cao Cao?!'

... Baka!

'WTF?'

?__?

You did too!

I don't bleeping know.

Scene 2. The Coalition disolves.

Spoiler

What about killing the degenerate piece of lard? :S

I am with Liu Bei on this topic.

And it makes me feel dirty.

After the Coalition took Luoyang and extinguished the fires that had consumed the city Sun Jian's forces did set up camp near the dynastic temple, inside the ruined city's walls. They took care of various solemn tasks while there, and during a clear night Sun Jian did see in the sky an omen that signaled the end of the dynasty. He was deeply affected by this, and as he wept he noticed a strange light coming out a nearby well. Inside he found the perfectly conservated body of a woman wearing rich clothes and with a silk bag around her neck, inside of which he found the imperial hereditary seal. Both he and his advisors saw this as a sign that he had received the mandate of heaven and thus decided to return to their own lands as quickly as possible to hide the seal and the start planning their next move.

Amusingly enough this does set in motion a long chain of events that will result in Yuan Shu's pathetic demise.

I imagine he was getting chewed by Xiahou Dun because Cao Cao's blueness did rob him of his epic scene.

Scene 3. Wang Yun's home.

Spoiler

In the novel the 'Double Snare' was actually Wang Yun plan, and Diao Chan only went through with it because she was grateful for all Wang Yun had done for her and saw it as her way to repay him.

Red Hare, part deux. Nao with boobies!

Good thing she was eighteen!

Scene 4. Men are dumb, part 1.

Spoiler

Having beautiful girls throwing themselves at my feet is such a load to bear!

Nao I have two halberds!

[system] Red alert! Red alert! Hormones are revolting; All higher brain functions compromised.

Scene 5. Men are dumb, part 2.

Spoiler

You don't touch my bloody ride! You don't touch my bloody girl! And you don't bleeping touch my bloody cockroach hat!

Wasn't it Diao Chan's Double Snare, o Koei?

Anyway, from what I remember Li Jue and Guo Si couldn't care less about Dong Zhuo. After Lu Bu did turn Lord Lardass into XP Wang Yun did offer amnesty to all of Dong Zhuo's lackeys but Li Jue, Guo Si, and two other generals that do not appear in the game. Yet those had taken flight as soon as Dong Zhuo had been killed. They tried to get amnesty as well but Wang Yun would have nothing of that. Unluckily for him Li Jue had Jia Xu, styled Wenhe, among his advisors. This man came up with a plan to gain support against Wang Yun and attack the Chang'An.

Wang Yun gave Lu Bu the task to defend the city. Lu Bu did consider INT to be a dump stat. Jia Xu was a min-maxed strategist. You can guess the rest.

Scene 6. Lu Bu gonna Lu Bu.

Spoiler

Extra, Extra! Lu Bu fell into someone's ruse! The world gasps in surprise!

Scene 7. And nothing did change.

Spoiler

You have to love the Three Kingdoms. Yesterday Cao Cao and the Dongzhuonites were fighting each other to the death in some mountain passes. Today the Imperial Court, controlled by the ex-Dongzhuonites, is giving him an official appointment and sending an official petition to him, which we will see in the next chapter.

Anyway, it seems the problem was with PNGs. I did convert all files into JPGs and Cubeupload now seems to be working alright. If nothing wrong happens I'll start moving all the previous chapters there and then continue from here.

 

[Monstrous Bat]

Well, don't worry. If I recall correctly, the next blue choice made even less sense than this one. Shame that you didn't get to do the optional mission though

 

[Wyrmlord]

I remember Lu Bu was the craziest fighter in the battlefield. He had huge reach, could attack in any direction, could double attack anyone right back, and so it was a nightmare to engage him offensively and a nightmare to defend against him.

In early game, before my units were strong, I had to use ranged units to slowly wear him down. He would still block arrows with ease.

 

[Delterius]

Well, don't worry. If I recall correctly, the next blue choice made even less sense than this one. Shame that you didn't get to do the optional mission though

At this rate I expect Zhang Fei to unite China. Blue Cao just fucks up the cosmic balance like that.

at the LP.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Oh hey, the dropbox images are back! I guess the traffic has become less intense by now.

Loving the LP, as always. Don't ever stop.

 

[Wyrmlord]

This game was the first thing that sparked my interest in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms world.

It's funny because the game allows you to

Spoiler

rescue Dian Wei from death after Cao Cao is betrayed by one of his generals.

This is the ahistorical version of what really happened, and I was under the impression that Dian Wei in the actual stories continued to live and serve Cao Cao for the rest of his life.

What a shock it was to learn that Dian Wei dies in the stories.

So I discovered a huge discrepancy between what really happened in the RotTK epic and the story that this game showed. Such is the ignorance of a person who discovers a classic, not by himself, but through a videogame.

 

[treave]

If he ever appears in a movie you know he is going to take on the entire armies of Wei single-handedly, murderize several officers, steal a kiss from both Zhen Ji and Empress Bian at the same time while Cao Pi and Cao Cao hug each other in a corner and whimper in fear of his power and envy of his gentlemanly virility, defeat Lu Bu in a duel using only a feather as a weapon, and then ride into the sunset playing the greatest guzheng melody ever played... with just his toes. And then the movie proper will start for that was just the character introduction, a normal day in the simple life of Zhao Yun.

Yeah, uh, about that movie... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms:_Resurrection_of_the_Dragon

 

[Monstrous Bat]

Pretty sure it's possible to defeat Liu Bei and co. in the Xuzhou battle. It's kinda difficult, yeah, but it's a cakewalk compared to actually winning the first Battle of Puyang. I remember getting my ass handed to me when I tried to pull that off.

Also, it's been forever since I played LoCC, but I remember the magicians being pretty useful. In the early game they serve as secondary blaster mages since Poison is pretty good for weakening low INT warriors such as Lu Bu and Zhang Fei. Later, they would gain access to a bunch of very useful spells tactics, including one that weakens the victims' defence, making them much easier to kill.

 

[Cool name]

@ Monstrous Bat:

Oh, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention to say it is impossible. I just meant it was either impossible or pretty hard given my situation. I was surrounded by Tao Qian's dudes, almost out of MP on my strategists, half my troops were kind of battered, it was raining, I am too stingy to use recovery beans at this point in the game, and being Blue Cao meant we wouldn't have heal on him at all without rushing the fortress while rushing the fortress meant we would be too battered to deal with the reinforcements. I was trying to get a victory on the seventh/eight/ninth turn as Liu Bei usually reaches you in the ninth or tenth turn but got too swamped. Maybe I could have gotten a victory in the ninth turn (breaking through the enemy troops and killing him without dealing with the guys on the sides) but it was unlikely so I just went Cannon Cao. Ever since I did read the historical version of that battle I find it hard to get all pumped up to murderize Tao Qian.

Amusingly enough I did manage to almost win the first Puyang battle on my first try, but then Lu Bu happened. It was RNG based though, as ever since then I have been really unlucky on that mission.

@ treave:

Yeah, that was one of the ones playing on my head while writing that.

@ Wyrmlord:

At least you went and read the proper Romance afterwards. To this day I meet people who considers themselves fans of the Romance yet think Cao Pi and Zhen Ji's story is really cute and romantic, which is, like, WTF READ THE FUCKING BOOK INSTEAD OF PLAYING DYNASTY WARRIORS!

@ Crooked Bee:

*dons the sexy submissive maid uniform*

Well, I won't stop as long as Mistress reads them.

*bows*

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I remember Lu Bu was the craziest fighter in the battlefield. He had huge reach, could attack in any direction, could double attack anyone right back, and so it was a nightmare to engage him offensively and a nightmare to defend against him.

In early game, before my units were strong, I had to use ranged units to slowly wear him down. He would still block arrows with ease.

Yes, Lu Bu is pretty ridiculous. Koei really likes to make him totally OP. The only game where I remember him not being totally WTF was RTKXI. He is still a meatgrinder in that one but he's so dumb you can pretty much have him running in circles for whole years if you have someone with high INT and an ability like Siren or the one that gives auto-success against low-INT generals. 'I'm going to attack Cao Cao!', Cao Cao uses misinform, 'OH NOEZ, I MUST RETURN TO DEFEND HULAO GATE!', he runs all the way back to Hulao gate, 'I have been had! I'm going to attack Cao Cao!', Cao Cao uses misinform, 'OH NOEZ, THE ENEMY IS AT HULAO GATE!', he runs all the way back to Hulao gate, 'Damn you Cao Cao! I will destroy you now!', Cao Cao uses misinform, 'OH NOEZ! I MUST SAVE HULAO GATE!'. :D

I almost feel bad for him. After a while you just want to hug him and tell him it's going to be alright.

Though then you'd have to keep in mind he'd probably find some way to hug-betray you then and there, somehow.

RoTK's extra dramatized depiction of Lu Bu pretty classical morality play stuff all in all, a big strong dumb guy with a mean streak a mile wide, who's strength ends up being useless because of his critically flawed character. In the game context here, through the fact his lack of brainpower renders his muscle power useless.

Besides generally Koei's gist seems to be that Guan Yu was an even tougher hombre (then again out of the two Guan Yu is worshipped as a deity; Lu Bu is treated as a cautionary story about being strong, dumb and evil). Or at the very least had a much prettier beard (it's quite hilarious about how much space is Romance uses just to talk about how nice Guan Yu's beard looks like and how precious it is). In the book, pretty much the only guy portrayed as an even more of an unstoppable walking deus ex machina was Zhuge "I assassinate people by writing them mean letters" Liang.


PS: I liked how the screenshot made it seem that Wang Yun committed suicide by stabbing himself in the head.

PPS: BC totally voted for Zhao Yun in those best boyfriend polls Koei makes for these characters.

EDIT: Speaking of Koei's creative license with Dynasty Warriors and the fanboys of certain characters being really weird, there's definately more to be said about Lu Bu and Diaochan than Zhen Ji and Cao Pi. Namely the fact Koei flip-flops about how that relationship works all the time between the book's 100% manipulation of two evil brutes and actual lurvs. Another thing here is that Westerners don't know that China was not a monogamous society, in case of Cao Pi for example Lady Zhen was just one of his many wives (and one that fell out of favor too and was eventually driven to commit suicide).

Or the fact majority of these kinds of things in RoTK are far more motivated by "BOOBS!" than any sort of romantic sentiments (to such an extent that rumouring Cao Cao has been afflicted by "BOOBS!" is cause enough for war due to the behaviour being a very real threat in RoTK land). And Lady Zhen herself is pretty much a textbook example of taking a war trophy wife.

Incidentally, I for one find it somewhat curious Lu Bu's fame type in DW7E is Brave and not Evil. Though it's probably because the Rebellion action is only available at sufficient Brave level. I for one wouldn't call Lu Bu an actually courageous person in any manner, and the book certainly didn't depict him as brave either. He was more of a bully, the kind of coward that is brave in the sense that because he's generally faced with a one-sided fight in his favour he can act tough. When he actually had to get into an even fight with the super sworn bros he did leg it rather quickly, and in the end he did end up begging for his life and lashing out at Liu Bei for pointing out certain facts about his MO before Cao Cao lays down the law on him to shut his mouth.

 

[treave]

Incidentally, I for one find it somewhat curious Lu Bu's fame type in DW7E is Brave and not Evil. Though it's probably because the Rebellion action is only available at sufficient Brave level. I for one wouldn't call Lu Bu an actually courageous person in any manner, and the book certainly didn't depict him as brave either. He was more of a bully, the kind of coward that is brave in the sense that because he's generally faced with a one-sided fight in his favour he can act tough. When he actually had to get into an even fight with the super sworn bros he did leg it rather quickly, and in the end he did end up begging for his life and lashing out at Liu Bei for pointing out certain facts about his MO before Cao Cao lays down the law on him to shut his mouth.

Well, you do need some balls to assassinate your foster father, the most powerful man in the Imperial Court. Historically his reputation is much the same as in popular culture; mighty warrior, but horribly short-sighted and impetuous. I don't think he's ever been hinted to be cowardly in a fight.

Still, the man has zero ability to think more than one step ahead. Basically the political imbecile of his age, though perhaps if he were born today he would have achieved a lot more success in life.

 

[Cool name]

PPS: BC totally voted for Zhao Yun in those best boyfriend polls Koei makes for these characters.

I am kind of ambivalent about him. He's pretty much perfect. Everything he does he does better than everyone else. He's beautiful, strong, kind, gentlemanly, calm, composed, charismatic, dutiful, brave, honorable, loyal, etc, etc, etc, and a one man army as well. Everyone else is flawed as bleep. Even Kongming, who is pretty much glorious trolling incarnate, is flawed. Even Liu Bei, who is suposed to be 'the perfect ruler,' is kind of a self-righteous asshole. But Zhao Yun is without flaw. No matter what happens he will do the right thingie, he will win, and he will be a perfect gentleman while at it. It's kind of hateful and frustrating, yet at the same time he's kind of... cute. You can't help but love him a little bit just because he's such a positive and inspiring character and you think, like, how awesome would it be if people like him actually existed?

So I kind of hate him... But kind of like him... It's difficult.

Namely the fact Koei flip-flops about how that relationship works all the time between the book's 100% manipulation of two evil brutes and actual lurvs.

Or both at the same time. Diao Chan's route's ending in DW6 is pretty much WTF incarnate: It turns out she was actually kind of a super secret agent or something like that manipulating Lu Bu's warband to finish off all the warlords and thus bring peace and prosperity back to the Han... And in doing so fell in love with Lu Bu, and they live happily ever after and the Dynasty flourishes and stuffies. It was, like, WHAT? Oh, I see what you did there. LOL.

Incidentally, I for one find it somewhat curious Lu Bu's fame type in DW7E is Brave and not Evil. Though it's probably because the Rebellion action is only available at sufficient Brave level. I for one wouldn't call Lu Bu an actually courageous person in any manner, and the book certainly didn't depict him as brave either. He was more of a bully, the kind of coward that is brave in the sense that because he's generally faced with a one-sided fight in his favour he can act tough. When he actually had to get into an even fight with the super sworn bros he did leg it rather quickly, and in the end he did end up begging for his life and lashing out at Liu Bei for pointing out certain facts about his MO before Cao Cao lays down the law on him to shut his mouth.

I don't know if I would call Lu Bu evil per se. Compared to much of the stuff that goes on in the Three Kingdoms he kind of comes off more like a wandering warlord just trying to get by, and his only merit is being a bloody great warrior so that's all he can do. That's also his downfall: He is a great warrior and ambitious, which makes him dangerous and unpredictable, yet dumb as a brick, which makes him not stand a chance when against all the cunning assholes of the time. If he had been smart he would have been a real contender, if he had been less ambitious he would have had a successful career with one of the real warlords.

I don't personally like how Liu Bei is with him, though. Liu Bei was as much of a wandering and oportunistic warlord as Lu Bu was, and Lu Bu did help him when Liu Bei was pretty much fucked otherwise. That's the kind of thingie why I do truly hate Liu Bei: He's all self righteous as bleep but he never goes through with it. Compare him with Guan Yu, who remembers the time Cao Cao was good to him and thus repays the debt when the time comes, or with Chen Gong when he decides not to kill The Cao in his sleep or in the way he acts when later executed. Liu Bei did it just out of self interest: Lu Bu is a powerful and unpredictable element in our really big China-shaped weiqi board so he has to go, fuck righteousness.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I haven't played the baseline Dynasty Warriors games that much after 5. I'm much more into the Empires games, since those let you in on the RoTK madness (chasing boobs, betraying everyone, etc). I did hear that just before Koei decided to stop giving a shit about localized voices (DW7E has only Jap VO), they FINALLY started getting the pronounciation right. I actually kind of miss the crappy and cheesy English voice-overs. They grow on you.

As for Liu Bei, I'd say a big thing there is that he's a very different sort of virtuous person than the Western Greco-Roman-Judeo-Christian kind of idea of virtue. I mean, there is that bit where that one hunter cooks and feeds him his wife because he doesn't have any meat for his noble guest, and this is treated a really really honourable and good thing to do. Besides, Liu Bei somehow loses the mandate of heavanz and dooms Shu when he goes after Wu for revenge, which is also somewhat odd from a Westerners perspective.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Fucking Vaarna, he is an expert on everything.

Something as niche as Chinese classical epics and their relationship with videogames, and boy, is this guy discussing it with passion.

Only on the Codex.

 

[Cool name]

I haven't played the baseline Dynasty Warriors games that much after 5. I'm much more into the Empires games, since those let you in on the RoTK madness (chasing boobs, betraying everyone, etc). I did hear that just before Koei decided to stop giving a shit about localized voices (DW7E has only Jap VO), they FINALLY started getting the pronounciation right. I actually kind of miss the crappy and cheesy English voice-overs. They grow on you.

I have to get DW7E myself. T_T But I am quite sure once I do I will spend far more time unlocking pretty, sexy, flashy clothes than trying to tie Xiahou Dun to a bed somewhere. Fashion uber alles.

As for Liu Bei, I'd say a big thing there is that he's a very different sort of virtuous person than the Western Greco-Roman-Judeo-Christian kind of idea of virtue. I mean, there is that bit where that one hunter cooks and feeds him his wife because he doesn't have any meat for his noble guest, and this is treated a really really honourable and good thing to do. Besides, Liu Bei somehow loses the mandate of heavanz and dooms Shu when he goes after Wu for revenge, which is also somewhat odd from a Westerners perspective.

Liu Bei double crossing Lu Bu is not an isolated case. I guess the tragedy of Liu Bei is that his heart was in the right place but in the end he was only human, or that his heart was in the right place but in the end he could not simply remain untouched by the chaos of the era.

He judges, but he never judges himself. Liu Bei stops Cao Cao from destroying Tao Qian to avenge his father, yet Liu Bei marches to face Wu to avenge Guan Yu. He understands a ruler can't have personal desires nor act on personal passions, that a ruler no longer is an individual but a people, yet even when he knows it he can't make peace with it.

If there's a truly saintly and heroic figure in the story that's Guan Yu. He doesn't betray Liu Bei, but he pays his debt to Cao Cao. He kills whom his duty is to kill, yet he is always respectful and solemn about it. And when in the end he makes peace with his own death he is actually being compared to Liu Bei, being the example Liu Bei should follow. He is killed and wants revenge, yet he understands he has no more right to it than all those he killed himself. Liu Bei loses his sworn brother and wants revenge, but he does not understand he has no more right to it than all those whose loved the ones he killed or had others kill. In doing so he is not above the era of violence and chaos, he is just another part of it, one more warlord claiming to be fighting for the realm and the people when he is truly only fighting for himself. Guan Yu surpases the era, Liu Bei becomes it.

I guess it is not that I dislike Liu Bei because Cao Cao and the Sun Family are better than him but because he is the same as they are but he believes himself to be better than them, different than them.

But, hey, this is not The Law or anything. Just my personal interpretation, and it changes a little bit every time I read it. If anything Teh Romance is so enthralling precisely because after seven hundred years we are still discussing it. There's a lot to learn from it... Including lots and lots of didactic and practical examples of the thirty six stratagems!

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I haven't played the baseline Dynasty Warriors games that much after 5. I'm much more into the Empires games, since those let you in on the RoTK madness (chasing boobs, betraying everyone, etc). I did hear that just before Koei decided to stop giving a shit about localized voices (DW7E has only Jap VO), they FINALLY started getting the pronounciation right. I actually kind of miss the crappy and cheesy English voice-overs. They grow on you.

I have to get DW7E myself. T_T But I am quite sure once I do I will spend far more time unlocking pretty, sexy, flashy clothes than trying to tie Xiahou Dun to a bed somewhere. Fashion uber alles.

Acquiring fashion/boobs/dicks is actually easier than last time around due to various handy improvements. For one thing, Friendship is a grade you can always check (so no semi-random friendmaking anymore), and then you are no longer limited to making friends with either Free Officers or your Ruler's employed officers, a Free Officer can now chit-chat and do skirmishes with anyone in their present location (AKA "getting Diaochan away from Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo 101").

Fashion on the other hand is acquired purely through points (incidentally, it's all better). And Koei has made 15 Edit character fashion DLCs for the game (1 dorraa each), as well as 20 voice DLCs (10 male, 10 female; they're alternate versions of pre-existing voices with different voice actors; combo pack of all 20 is ten dorraa).

As for Liu Bei, I'd say a big thing there is that he's a very different sort of virtuous person than the Western Greco-Roman-Judeo-Christian kind of idea of virtue. I mean, there is that bit where that one hunter cooks and feeds him his wife because he doesn't have any meat for his noble guest, and this is treated a really really honourable and good thing to do. Besides, Liu Bei somehow loses the mandate of heavanz and dooms Shu when he goes after Wu for revenge, which is also somewhat odd from a Westerners perspective.

Liu Bei double crossing Lu Bu is not an isolated case. I guess the tragedy of Liu Bei is that his heart was in the right place but in the end he was only human, or that his heart was in the right place but in the end he could not simply remain untouched by the chaos of the era.

He judges, but he never judges himself. Liu Bei stops Cao Cao from destroying Tao Qian to avenge his father, yet Liu Bei marches to face Wu to avenge Guan Yu. He understands a ruler can't have personal desires nor act on personal passions, that a ruler no longer is an individual but a people, yet even when he knows it he can't make peace with it.

If there's a truly saintly and heroic figure in the story that's Guan Yu. He doesn't betray Liu Bei, but he pays his debt to Cao Cao. He kills whom his duty is to kill, yet he is always respectful and solemn about it. And when in the end he makes peace with his own death he is actually being compared to Liu Bei, being the example Liu Bei should follow. He is killed and wants revenge, yet he understands he has no more right to it than all those he killed himself. Liu Bei loses his sworn brother and wants revenge, but he does not understand he has no more right to it than all those whose loved the ones he killed or had others kill. In doing so he is not above the era of violence and chaos, he is just another part of it, one more warlord claiming to be fighting for the realm and the people when he is truly only fighting for himself. Guan Yu surpases the era, Liu Bei becomes it.

I guess it is not that I dislike Liu Bei because Cao Cao and the Sun Family are better than him but because he is the same as they are but he believes himself to be better than them, different than them.

But, hey, this is not The Law or anything. Just my personal interpretation, and it changes a little bit every time I read it. If anything Teh Romance is so enthralling precisely because after seven hundred years we are still discussing it. There's a lot to learn from it... Including lots and lots of didactic and practical examples of the thirty six stratagems!

Well, the book expressly treats Liu Bei's revenge trip to Wu as the reason why Shu became doomed since it was not virtuous, and EVERYONE (who matters) told him he shouldn't do it. IIRC cannibalism was involved again. And he shortly dies after the failed expedition. The gist with Liu Bei's fall from grace in terms of the Mandate wasn't so much his own flaws, but rather that his brothers meant too much for him. The book is very resolute in backing up Shu as the legitimate Han successor (this is pretty much the book's be-all-end-all argument for why Liu Bei is better than the rest) and so it's treated as a tragedy. Cao Cao is more of a villainous figure (of course by no means like Dong Zhuo or his own son), being a highly paranoid man who'd also turn very harsh, cruel and judgmental if anything angered him (this is basically where the Zuo Ci fable goes).

Guan Yu's ghost doesn't have such problems (the book has a huge woody for Guan, since he's super-duper great and perfect, and killing him by ambush treachery makes you lowest of the low), what with him coming back to haunt everyone and then Lu Meng drops dead while bleeding from his urethra (as well as all the other orifices).

As for the stratagems, the book has a pretty strong habit of just letting Zhuge do whatever the hell he wants. That thing with the rocks causing brian meltdown among the pursuing troops is a good example.

 

[Tigranes]

@Agassi @Vaarna_Aarne

It's incredibly difficult to make judgments on Liu Bei because of the nature of the documentation we have and the opaqueness of Liu Bei's own character. One of the most convincing interpretations I've read hinges on the idea that Liu Bei is someone who understands so completely the manipulative power of a honourable and good man that he fools himself also into truly being such a man. As in, the best actor is one who is not fully aware of his/her own acting at all. For example, take the sequence of events when Liu Bei comes in control of Yi. By most accounts, Liu Bei is openly premeditating the stealthy takeover of Yi under the pretext of helping Liu Zhang at Hanzhong; either from Pang Tong's three plans, or from Zhang Song (who eventually gets killed for doing Liu Bei's dirty work). Liu Bei eventually does all the things that fit the strategic model of a stealthy takeover, indeed, practices a variation of a very textbook ancient Chinese stratagem: gaining military access to your neighbour under pretext of reaching an enemy on the other side then turning on him. (Ironically, this was exactly the move Zhou Yu allegedly meant to play on Liu Bei not so long before.) But Liu Bei performs such predilection, moral dilemma and torturous guilt at every stage that both Liu Bei's lieutenants and many of Liu Zhang's become convinced he is truly doing this only for the good of the cause of Han. The same applies to his relationship with Lu Bu, and even how he is able to 'recruit' Zhao Yun from Gongsun Zan. The most fascinating thing about Liu Bei is that I think it's unreasonable to suggest he was a master manipulator in Cao Cao's mold and was putting on a great act all his life; firstly, he goes so far several times in giving up all of his strategic cards for this performance, and secondly, it would take a truly unbelievable being to gamble everything so often on such a strategy. I think this is resolvable by positing that Liu Bei is someone who to some level is very much aware of how his honour is what lets him get away with so much stuff (i.e. a lifetime of leeching off other people, bringing misfortune upon them, poaching their best lieutenants and taking their lands); that it soon becomes the only thing he can use to possibly bid for victory. But at the same time he does not 'know' this in such a pragmatic and manipulative sense, and genuinely perceives it according to the code of honour. After all, even in his deathbed, having thrown away half of his kingdom and historically his best shot at reviving Han, he binds Zhuge Liang's loyalty to his son by pre-empting him; the story goes, Liu Bei tells Zhuge Liang, if my son proves incapable, you must depose him and finish the job yourself.

It must have been immensely frustrating and fascinating for Cao Cao, who if we go by stories of his interaction with Liu Bei (most famously the discussion of heroes of the age), knew perfectly well what Liu Bei was doing, and how he could never do it himself. The thing is, if we take the 'contemporary' 'original' text of Luo Guanzhong, it does not deconstruct Liu Bei in the way that traditional Western critique would be tempted to; i.e. by and large it avoids doing precisely what Agassi mentions about his 'human failings' or his contradictory behaviour. The opacity that I spoke of earlier as Liu Bei's greatest asset is maintained in the text - thus the text does not ever really question if Liu Bei 'knows what he's doing' or if he is contradicting or if he is having a moment of 'human failure'. Even his failures and outbursts, his regrets and lamentations, remain within the frame of the code of honour, just as Liu Bei himself maintains that beautiful thing until his death - I would argue, his final disastrous campaign does not in fact destroy it. Of course these are all different interpretations so I'm not going hurr durr people are wrong, but to me this is why I can't really see Liu Bei as 'seeing himself as different from everyone but ends up as only human'.

With Guan Yu it is even more solidified, of course, since all versions of the story I know of totally absolve him from blame in his final defeat (if he made any error it was his resolute loyalty, etc) and he receives a superheroic death. Again, what I like about the texts is how there is no deconstruction of his pride even when it proves fatal - unlike, say, how Lu Bu becomes a shibboleth for the dangers of pride or whatever, you do not find an assemblage of events and descriptions that open that dark crevice up in Guan Yu's character. Insufferable as he must have been in real life, the text respects that which Guan Yu successfully fetishised into a frame for his life.

 

[treave]

I think the problem is that Liu Bei as portrayed in Luo Guanzhong's writings and the Liu Bei as recorded in other historical chronicles appaer to be contradictory if you take the novel as an account of his actual personality. I don't believe he was some master manipulator either, but I'm certain the model Confucian principles attributed to Liu Bei were heavily exaggerated to the extent that he looks like a hypocritical dick.

He is a giant dick, but in the context of the day, not really any worse than the other warlords. All of them would have at least pretended to subscribe to those Confucian principles to lend themselves some trappings of legitimacy as a respected, learned ruler. Even Lu Bu tries to justify himself at times, though as you can see he fails very hard at it. Heck, Cao Cao, regarded as the 'villain' of the age, didn't crown himself Emperor even though he had earned it. It's just that Liu Bei was better at the political game than most, and his success makes a sharp contrast to the other dozen failed little warlords that also paid lip service to Confucian principles but are now buried in the dust of history.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Incidentally, I find it amusing how little men cry in stuff based on RoTK, since in the book men being deeply moved to tears happens ALL THE GODDAMN TIME. Seriously, it's probably the most used action and reaction in the book.

 

[Cool name]

Chapter 9

The Cacao Rangers invade Puyang but it kind of doesn't work out; Lu Bu and Chen Gong do the 'villain and advisor' routine.






Scene 1. Cao Cao's camp outside Puyang.

Spoiler

Lu Bu, too dumb to come up with a plan to take an empty city.

Shame the sprites are not animated in game. I would really, really, really like The Cao to be shaking his little fist as he says that.

Meet Yu Jin, styled Wenze. By this point in the story he's already a veteran of several campaigns, making his debut during the Yellow Turban rebellion, and has been with The Cao since before the campaign against Tao Qian. In time he will grow to be one of Cao Cao's Five Elite Generals, but eventually he will suffer from great shame.

In the game he is our second archer.

Let's chat with our generals.

This is sound advise for the battles to come. In the novel Cao Cao has to face Lu Bu three times to retake Puyang. We can either follow the same path or, if we are both very good and very lucky, we can try to actually win the first or second engagement. Doing so will take us directly to the mission after the third battle for Puyang.

Cao Cao will equip the silver armor. I take the raven robe from Xun You and give it to Dian Wei.

Then I deploy.

Scene 2. The not very heroic first battle for Puyang.

Spoiler

Neither does not listening to your advisor's unanimous advice, since we are at it. Remember that one instead.

As you can see the enemy has a large army which will be coming to us from two different directions. They have four named generals as well: Zhang Liao, Zang Ba, Chen Gong, and Lu Bu.

I would prefer to approach directly one of the gates and duke it out there but, alas, the game does not let me make such a choice.

Meet Zhang Liao, styled Wenyuan. If my memory doesn't betray me to this point he's been following Lu Bu around since he traded an adoptive father for a horsie, and he's a very popular and well known character who in time will become the greatest of Cao Cao's five elite generals. Through the story he will participate in many battles and do many cool thingies, and be generally pretty badass. His call to fame has to be the battle Xiaoyao Ford in which first he scared the fuck out of both Sun Quan and his forces with a pretty epic charge and then proceeded to turn lots of dudes into XP while Sun Quan runs for his dear life. And I am sure then he went all...

(•_•) Chi Bi? We did let you win.

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■) War would be pretty boring otherwise.

... even if no one mentions it.

I seem to remember he was not very well liked among Cao Cao's other generals though.

Anyway, I retreat my smaller group to minimize the damage they will receive from the south group in the first turn of engagement. I want to kill as many of the dudes to the right as I can before I focus on Zhang Liao's group as he can be pretty hard to kill if the RNG does not want to help.

But in the end I move The Cao to the group dealing with Zhang Liao because the other group has way too many people and it makes moving around kind of hard.

Xun You has to heal both groups. In this battle he gets no free time at all.

At first we do pretty well. We turn lots of their dudes into XP, removing about half the initial group in a single turn of combat. But through the second turn of fighting we don't do as well.

Then they send everything else they still have at the gates.

And during their move...

Bleep this. I am going home.

Everyone but Cao Cao attacks for the last time as to maximise XP gained from the mission. Cao Cao moves to the escape area once they are done.

In the novel Cao Cao has to retreat because he greatly underestimates Lu Bu. Maybe he does this as he does not know of Chen Gong, but I do not remember properly. As his forces did retreat and chaos ensued he was twice about to be caught. The first time it was Dian Wei who did save him by dismounting and exchanging his spear for a lot of battle axes that he did throw against the advancing cavalry, every axe killing a rider until the enemy fled. Then Lu Bu himself tried to catch him, but Xiahou Dun and some dudes fought Lu Bu and his dudes all night and under the rain so that Cao Cao might return to camp, and then retreated.

Scene 3. Meanwhile, deep in the bowels of Lu Bu's evil lair...

Spoiler

Both: Nyahahahaha!

And that's it for today because my hands are all hurty hurty. In the next chapter Cao Cao will try again, and once again fail. If my hands are less ouchie ouchie by then they will also recruit Xu Chu and assault Puyang for the third time. In between all that Liu Bei will turn out to be a total gold digga when Tao Qian dies and leaves everything he owns to him. Historical accounts and The Romance itself disagree with me on that it did involve lots and lots of hot steamy sex but that only shows how little they know about the secret techniques of the ancient gold diggah and sugar baby martial arts schools. For shame, old chinese dudes.



Now back to playing RTKVIII as Dong Zhuo's cute-as-a-button unrecorded (i.e: 100% fanfictioned in) daughter. He's actually a pretty awesome dad so far. He even threw a banquet when his uber lovely and charming daughter joined his corp of advisors. And 'Hey, mister! Join my dad's army of evil! *puppy eyes* Pleeeaaaseee... *thugs robe*' never fails.

I can't believe I am starting to grow attached to Lord Lardass and his evil army's dudes. D:

Shame in VIII you can marry neither Lu Bu nor Cao Cao. It would be pretty awesome to see how would history change if Lu Bu were not to fall for Diao Chan or if Cao Cao became Dong Zhuo's son-in-law instead of going rebel.

Can you marry freely in RTKX or is it like VIII in that you can only marry pre-scripted characters?

my fave RoTK manga: http://www.batoto.net/comic/_/comics/the-ravages-of-time-r1920

(may not be historically accurate)

OoOoOoooh, I'm going to read the bleep out of it. Megathankies!



Edit: Someone did post this little thingie in the comments...

Spoiler

Completely unrelated to the comic itself, but... Everything makes sense now.