Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

[duanth123]

Is there anything comparable to Gothic's 90+ levels in Wiz-gaming? Or was that like an unheard of "Fuck you, have 90 levels" type of thing

Edit. 'Fuck you' in a good way

starfish actually makes long ass games.

wiz empire 1 only features 3 dungeons, but it took me 25 hours to completely map out the 1st one!

wiz empire 2 easily took me upwards 75 hours (but i'm almost sure didn't reach 100) to reach the half-way point of the post-game dungeon before i shelved it (for other crawlers that were waiting).

empire 3, being as barren/empty as it is as i mentioned earlier, i reached its post game in less than 40 hours and do not plan to finish it. (i do plan to eventually finish the empire 2 post-game dungeon, though).

elminage: original right now i'm on my 2nd playthrough and in neither of my two playthroughs i have done the post-game dungeon: in my current, 2nd playthrough of Original, i'm currently clocked at 61 hours and am finishing up the final "normal dungeon" the dragon's fang. i have no idea how long the post-game dungeon is in 'Original.

gothic is nuts, you may have noticed i have been typing "the post-game dungeon"; well starfish decided 1 wasn't enough: there's 3, with the first two being bigger (each one, individually) than any of the "story dungeons" and then the 3rd post-game dungeon is the 20f Ibag's Tower which is basically... well, it's fucking gigantic.

to be fair to the classics though Wiz 5 and 6 are no slouches. I clocked 52 hours before seeing the credits roll on the PS1 remake of Wiz 5, and i also played through the SNES version of Wiz 5 but that one didn't have a clock: but it felt shorter than my ps1 playthrough.

i suspected it before but now i am quite certain: the SNES remakes (wiz 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6) don't necessarily feature FEWER encounters but they are definitely "easier". they are 100% wizardry faithful, but after i played the SNES remakes and then immediately afterwards played the PS1 remakes and THEN immediately afterwards started playing through the NEC-PC 98 port of the original Wiz 5 all i have to say is:

the snes versions "felt faster/easier". i can't really make a hard-facts list of the details but that's how they felt/played. the encounter rate comparison video of the Wiz 3 versions (snes/ps1/nec-pc 98) i recorded shows definite proof that the encounters are not the same in each version. the changes are all so integrated into the experience while playing though that i can't honestly say i ever felt a tangible difference.

as i said i only began suspecting the ps1 remakes were more accurate to the originals because i played them immediately after playing the snes versions. i absolutely had a way, way harder/tougher/longer time finishing wiz 5 on ps1 than on the snes.

the snes remake of wiz 6 is fantastic, btw, just remembered it has not been mentioned. it was fan-translated but the guy (guys, whatever) all they did was very smartly utilize the original game script of wiz 6 and they "translated" the japanese text into the original game script. So it's not a real translation they just switched the game scripts.

obviously there are differences like not being able to ask keywords to NPCs: in the snes version of wiz 5/6 what happens is the NPC simply tells you all of the critical story/puzzle script/dialog all at once in a huge info dump.

it's handled waaay better in the fan-translated Wiz 6 (snes), waaay better than the CAPCOM-localized Wiz 5 on snes. the snes wiz 5 features flat-out truncated NPC dialog and since that was the first version i played i always thought the game wasn't supposed to make a lick of sense.

it wasn't until i played the ps1 version of wiz 5 and suiddenly noticed every NPC in the game was talking in a much more normal manner and giving me much better "edited" text to read and not huge nonsense info-dumps that i realized: holy shit, wiz 5 actually does have a story! it's just that the snes version's game script was mutilated! heh.

no such script mutilation in the fan-translated snes wiz 6 tho. it plays fucking beautifully, looks gorgeous, and it is text-accurate to the original. Yes, for example in the original dos/apple ii versions you can engage in extraneous dialog with Quiggs asking him keywords that are not related to anything story/puzzle/critical, that is true: there is "less text", but everything that is important is elegantly edited and info-dumped on the player in snes wiz 6 unlike snes wiz 5, and using the original text to the letter.

(btw, it goes without saying that all versions, except obviously the primitive NES ports, are 100% gameplay-content / dungeon-content accurate to the originals; all of my previous observation that you've just read is exclusively and specifically about the text and the text only; oh, and of course, the previous talk of the encounter differences and whatnot).

i didn't finish wiz 5 NEC-PC 98 version but i played enough of it to feel satisfied that the experience i played through w/ the PS1 remake of wiz 5 is absolutely, 100% comparable to the original in every single meaningful way. the same could DEFINITELY not be said of the snes wiz 5.

why have you yet to play this?

 

[aweigh]

cos i don't have a vita

would play it otherwise.

 

[felipepepe]

You could build a +90 level dungeon with all these walls of text.

If only I could get people to focus this expletive power into a book review for Wizardry 1-3, 5, 6 and/or Elminage: Gothic...

 

[H-K]

cos i don't have a vita

would play it otherwise.

It's also on PSP in Japanese and here is a Japanese Wiki: http://www49.atwiki.jp/dungeon-travelers2/pages/1.html

 

[Dorarnae]

cos i don't have a vita

would play it otherwise.

It's also on PSP in Japanese and here is a Japanese Wiki: http://www49.atwiki.jp/dungeon-travelers2/pages/1.html

yeah the post game on that game is massive. probably the dungeon crawler I've spent the most time on. first time I played, I completed it in about 230 hours. then second time was around 130 hours .
it can be done much faster but I like to have at least 5 crowned character hehe.

 

[aweigh]

I'M playing it right now. it's... definitely "something different".

 

[aweigh]

AWWW MAN i just checked the files and they compressed everything, including the "menu stuff". all of the dungeon travelers 2 game data is all inside 1 single 600mb file which is a compressed archive container with the extension .SFS

not even a quick "menu patch" is possible, or at least not with my skills. jesus who would think the japs would lock down the hentai games tighter than other rpgs, heh. even the elminage games are an open book in comparison.

Hey, what about the other "to hearts"-whatever crawler that exists for PSP? is the Vita version a roll-up of both of those games? might be worth looking at the other game's files

 

[H-K]

Both games are released on both PSP and Vita in Japan but only the Vita version of the second game is available in EU/US.

The first game is a remake of a PC game called Final Dragon Chronicle but I don't know how different it is other then the CGs being less lewd on PSP/Vita but I guess the PSP/Vita version is better since Sting is listed as the developer for that version on Wikipedia while the PC game was developed by Leaf.

 

[Viata]

Didn't know they had a psp release, downloading it. Thanks guys.

 

[Dorarnae]

Both games are released on both PSP and Vita in Japan but only the Vita version of the second game is available in EU/US.

The first game is a remake of a PC game called Final Dragon Chronicle but I don't know how different it is other then the CGs being less lewd on PSP/Vita but I guess the PSP/Vita version is better since Sting is listed as the developer for that version on Wikipedia while the PC game was developed by Leaf.

I think the original game on pc had only the main 20 floor dungeon and it ended there with the boss in the center.
the remake on psp/vita added a few other dungeon.

 

[Shackleton]

Ok kids, enough bickering. Here's some good news:

My interview with Experience inc/ Team Muramasa was approved,I'll be sending questions to Motoya Ataka - director or Wizardry Xth, Generation Xth, Labyrinth Cross Blood, Operation Abyss, Students of the Round & Stranger in Sword City. This guy is basically THE Wizardry-like authority, made more of those games than anyone else.

So, any questions you would like to ask? aweigh Crooked Bee Courtier Siveon MrRichard999 Helly Viata H-K Machine

So anything to report felipepepe ?

Were there any nuggets of wisdom to impart?

 

[felipepepe]

I had to change the interview a bit since they can only talk freely about games made 100% by them - so no questions about Ray Gigant or Demon's Gaze -, but they agreed with my second version and should be sending them back next week or so.

Whoever is replying me speaks perfect English, is very polite and agreed with a rather long interview. I'm hyped to see the replies.

 

[desocupado]

So, dudes, I'm not reading 36 pages of this.

I'm feeling like playing something nice. I like complex and fun combat, I absolutely hate obtuse puzzles and searching for shit is the bane of my existence. Good graphics (and stuff with tits) is nice, but not required. And unless the story/dialogue is really cool and well written, I prefer a minimalistic story. I've filled my quota of inane jrpg dialogue for a lifetime in my youth.

It's gotta be for PC or emulatable, but nothing fancy cause I've got a laptop with integrated graphics, probably won't run ps2 or psp or whatever.

I was going to try Stranger in Sword City, but it's got a bug with touchpads :/

Any recommendations?

 

[aweigh]

desocupado

elminage: gothic (windows pc)

wizardry empire 2 (windows pc)

elminage: original (ppsspp emulator)

generation xth: code hazard (windows pc)

paper sorcerer (windows pc)

the dark spire (desmume emulator)

stranger in sword city (windows pc)

wizardry 1 (epsxe emulator)

wizardry 2 (epsxe emulator)

wizardry 3 (epsxe emulator)

wizardry 4 (epsxe emulator)

wizardry 5 (epsxe emulator)

wizardry 6 (snes9x emulator)

wizardry gaiden 4 (snes9x emulator)

etrian odyssey 1 (desmume emulator)

etrian odyssey 2 (desmume emulator)

etrian odyssey 3 (desmume emulator)

 

[Dorarnae]

the dark spire has obtuse puzzle though, I'd stay away from it hehe.

 

[desocupado]

I started Elminage Gothic. Seems nice, story is unobtrusive, combat is cool and all.

However, it requires an (reasonably cheap) item to access the map. All the places in the dungeon look exactly the same, there's a shitload of doors and redundant pathways, and the map is kinda hard to read, as in telling what is an wall and what is not.

So I'm progressing the game, trying to get back to the hub to rest and heal, and I run out of map items.

...

Fuck that, I'm gonna try Stranger in Sword City. At least I can skip the inane jrpg dialogue.

 

[hackncrazy]

Hi guys, I'm pretty new to the 1st person Dungeon Crawler genre (so far I have only played Legend of Grimrock 1 and 2).

I'm looking for something similar in terms of exploration/puzzle solving and combat. For what I've seen, the Wizardry games and clones are turn-based, which doesn't botter me at all (as long as it's not an "automatic" game, where you have just to keep pressing attack and wait the outcome).

So, in terms of exploration and puzle solve, does the games mentioned in the thread are in any way similar to Grimrock or should I look different kinds of 1st person Dungeon Crawlers?

 

[Siveon]

Or you could just map the dungeons out yourself. That's like a genre staple, man.

 

[duanth123]

I started Elminage Gothic. Seems nice, story is unobtrusive, combat is cool and all.

However, it requires an (reasonably cheap) item to access the map. All the places in the dungeon look exactly the same, there's a shitload of doors and redundant pathways, and the map is kinda hard to read, as in telling what is an wall and what is not.

So I'm progressing the game, trying to get back to the hub to rest and heal, and I run out of map items.

...

Fuck that, I'm gonna try Stranger in Sword City. At least I can skip the inane jrpg dialogue.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=343482884

http://steamcommunity.com/app/291960/discussions/0/616188677602487895/?ctp=3

 

[felipepepe]

Or you could just map the dungeons out yourself. That's like a genre staple, man.

Eh, not really... Only if you're limiting yourself to early Wizardry & hardcore clones.

Even Wizardry VII had an automap, and modern takes like Generation Xth, Stranger in Sword City, Wizards & Warriors, Clash of Heroes, Etrian Odissey and Strange Journey all have one as well. I love blobbers, but I don't really care for drawing my own maps. Especially since very few games have map designs tricky enough for it to be a challenge, rather than a busy work.

 

[desocupado]

I started Elminage Gothic. Seems nice, story is unobtrusive, combat is cool and all.

However, it requires an (reasonably cheap) item to access the map. All the places in the dungeon look exactly the same, there's a shitload of doors and redundant pathways, and the map is kinda hard to read, as in telling what is an wall and what is not.

So I'm progressing the game, trying to get back to the hub to rest and heal, and I run out of map items.

...

Fuck that, I'm gonna try Stranger in Sword City. At least I can skip the inane jrpg dialogue.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=343482884

http://steamcommunity.com/app/291960/discussions/0/616188677602487895/?ctp=3

Thank you gentle sir.

 

[Siveon]

Only if you're limiting yourself to early Wizardry & hardcore clones.

Well Elminage is one of the hardcore ones. It clearly wasn't built around automap like the games you mentioned.

Unrelated, but calling Etrian Odyssey's system 'automap' is a bit of a stretch (so is calling mapping a staple I suppose). It's more like assisted mapping than anything else.

 

[aweigh]

while i don't dispute that Elminage is a hard-core clone of Wizardry i think Starfish has elevated the original Wiz 1-5 blueprint to such a degree that it has surpassed the status of clone and is actually a continuation / natural progression of the classic Wizardry gameplay; much more so than the actual western Wizardry titles 6, 7 and 8 which completely eschewed that blueprint in favor of Bradley's designs.

the fact that the Elminage series developers are actual ex-Wizardry developers as well should not be understated either. Wiz Empire 1, 2 and 3 are Wizardry canon.

in any case i never once drew a single map for any of the Elminage games including Gothic which is the only Elminage game (in my opinion) to feature Wizardry-level dungeons. Elminage 1, 2 and 3 (i.e. the previous ones) are more interested in the numerical side of things and in polishing and elevating the already existing Wiz 1-5 gameplay blueprint than in creating Wiz-level mazes.

that's really why the people who love Elminage: Gothic love it so much:

- ex-Wiz developers reveling in their Wiz-talent by implementing the Wizardry-blueprint to the nth degree; to such a degree that, as i said earlier, it truly becomes a replacement for it instead of a clone of it.

- only game in the Elminage series to make a concentrated effort in presenting the player with intentionally hard-core mazes. the previous entries all features at least 1 or 2 dungeons that are of note, (in the case of elminage: Original it would be the very 1st dungeon and the last story dungeon IMO), but it's the strength of its gameplay mechanics and its art and music that carry the weight of the game's appeal; in Gothic there is little music to none at all and it features almost no story to speak of but in liue of those things every single dungeon is memorable.

the problem i have with Exp Inc / Team Muramasa games is that unlike Starfish they try to do it all in every title. They try to deliver a memorable story while overhauling the existing Wiz 1-5 gameplay blueprint and at the same time also give the player noteworthy mazes to explore. this sounds great on paper but in execution they fail on every single front. the closest they've gotten to a truly great dungeon crawler is with their recent Stranger of Sword City and ironically it is precisely because they decided to concentrate less on story and dialog and instead concentrate more on trying to create memorable mazes and hewing closer to more traditional Wiz 1-5 gameplay instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

(getting rid of their tedious crafting system in favor of a more traditional Wiz 1-5 itemization design helps SoSC a lot in giving the player a better dungeon crawling experience as it gives more meaning to the encounter design, which in turn gives more meaning to the maze design.)

@felipepe

EDIT: btw, this entire post is/was a small part of that elminage: gothic review i keep promising you. you can see why i MSG'd you that i was deliberating on sending it now because of how i kept swerving into more of an overview of the wizardry legacy than in actually reviewing Gothic itself.

 

[desocupado]

I made a party in Stranger in Sword City, Samurai named "deso" and 5 big titted ladies with various roles. I liked the map, the concept of Morale as a resource that recharges as you fight, and I really like the monster art style. However there's one small thing that might ruin it for me.

It requires me to press a button to move through ALL combat messages.

You might imagine "dude, that's nothing", well, I usually agree, but I'm starting to show carpal tunnel symptoms and stuff. The last thing I should be doing is playing games, but really repetitive stuff, I really gotta avoid. I stopped playing Crawl Stone Soup cause of that.

Anyway, gothic doesn't have that, there's a long pause between key presses, and with the thing that improves the map contrast and gives the map item infinite usage, it's playable now. It seems cool, but nobody in my party has big tits.

Game is also hard as fuck. I made two fighters, 1 cleric, 1 valkyrie, 1 mage and 1 alchemist. Mage, cleric and alchemist are pretty much useless so far, specially with all the "-1 mp" traps.

Also, is there ANY way to identify shit in the dungeon if you don't have a bishop?

And uh, anybody cares to explain alchemy to me?

EDIT: Uh, do things get quicker in the other dungeons? Cause I got like, more than 2 hours and I barely explored the second floor of the starting dungeon. Checking the maps of the game, there's like, a hundred maps, and I took 2 hours to explore 1 and half.

 

[aweigh]

desocupado

- Just like in Wizardry the only character class that has access to the "Identify" ability is the Bishop class.

- the Alchemy class is the only character class I consider mandatory. There are several items that can be created through transmutation / alchemy such as the Sheephair Brush which makes fixed encounters visible on the map, the Dove bell and the Crow bell which remove/attract encounters respectively, the dice of fate which reveal the dice rolls the game makes when something happens in battle, and a few other items.

- the only item gotten from transmutation/alchemy that i consider essential is the sheephair brush because of the convenience of knowing where the fixed encounters are located so you can grind them for loot later on in the game (if you want to), or alternatively for avoiding them on your way to a deeper floor of the dungeon (if you want to).

- however there is another alchemy item that could be considered even more "essential" and it's one called the treasure chest which rejuvenates a character's age by -1 year.

- the easiest way to see what items you can make via transmutation/alchemy is simply to select the option -> select one of the Ores -> and scroll through your list of remaining Ores and look at the bottom portion of the screen where the name of the resulting alchemy item will be displayed.

- my favorite party in Gothic is:

1x Fighter -> Lord
1x Samurai (preferably right from char-gen, but if impatient then Fighter -> Samurai)
1x Thief (you can steal some good stuff later on once the Thief learns their class mastery skills, and even if the enemy doesn't have anything worth stealing a Thief's ability to remove an enemy's gear can render powerful opponents completely harmless; plus there's nothing like having the security a Thief provides when disarming trapped chests as chest traps can often wipe your party just like in Wizardry)

(...and on top of all that the Thief has the highest chance to detect secret doors as well)

1x ****** (whatever you want; if going for maximum combat effectiveness then a Valkyrie or a Ninja, but I usually use this slot as my flavor pick)

1x Bishop (convenience)
1x Alchemist (mandatory IMO; especially once they learn their class mastery ability and you can remove Ores from gear after enchanting it)

- Just like you I find Exp Inc / Team Muramasa's insistence on not providing auto-scrolling battle feedback to be incredibly annoying and tedious, and for the exact same reasons as you do (wrist worries / hand worries).

Here is a link to the Elminage: Gothic wikia which has everything you could possibly want: http://translate.google.com/transla...p://spoiler2.sakura.ne.jp/srv2/elg/index.html

obviously that is a link to a translated version of the japanese wikia. From reading your post about how you're using the infinite magic maps mod then I know you already have a link to the american wikia. BTW, i also utilized the infinite magic map mod in my first playthrough so don't feel bad about it. of all the Elminage games Gothic is the only one that utilizes that way of accessing the auto-map and it is a call-back to the developers previous series of games, Wizardry Empire 1, 2 and 3 which utilized magic maps just like Gothic.

EDIT: Alchemists can transmute/alchemize 2 seperate Ores and create a special type of item like the ones I described above. However the main use for alchemists is for enchanting gear which they can do right from Lv. 1. The different Ores each provide access to different enchantments and as you play through the game you will find different uses for each one.

once an alchemist reaches level 26 they learn class mastery abilities which allow them the ability to remove ores from enchanted gear and they also gain the ability to increase the number of enchantment points an Ore has as they continue to level up.

expect to have a party within the level range of 50-60 by the time you finish the main story-line's dungeons, and probably level 200-225 if you actually complete the post-game, so yeah level 26 is... not really that high.

for maximum power-gaming make sure to class-change a priest/mage/alchemist into another spell-casting class as soon as they learn 7th spell-level spells. Although it's not really necessary but for the post-game dungeons it's very convenient having 2 or even 3 characters with access to multiple spell schools. But i repeat, it's not necessary as Dorateen or Dorarnae or Courtier can attest all 3 of them have finished the Gothic post-game with parties that didn't feature class-changed characters.

don't expect much melee dmg output from mages/bishops/alchemists but you do eventually get some worthwhile weapons for those classes mainly Whips, two or three specific Staffs and during the post-game a very powerful L-ranged missile weapon (though it requires enchanting it with Double Damage qualities in order to unlock its damage output; the best Ore for that is the Millstone).

since they will never be able to deal high dmg numbers i recommend enchanting their weapons with the highest possible chance to inflict Sleep, Silence or Confusion. the best Ore for that is the Sensolite or the Devil's Lapis. (i.e. their hits won't do much melee dmg but at least every successful hit will carry a chance to inflict a status ailment on the enemy which in many cases is even better).