Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

[aweigh]

PSP? THe PSP version's the one that was ported to PC. You're prolly thinking of the 3DS version.

 

[Ventidius]

PSP? THe PSP version's the one that was ported to PC. You're prolly thinking of the 3DS version.

Yep, got the Japanese rom and everything. Perhaps it was just my imagination, but I think I might have seen a thread here discussing its potential fan-translation. But it could also have been about Elminage 2 or 3.

EDIT: Nvm, just googled it. It was a thread by you about translating Elminage 2. So yeah, how is that going? You still working on that?

 

[aweigh]

moving the work done over to the new 3ds releases of elminage 2 and 3. expect those to be done in about 5 years

however if you only want to play elmi 2/3 (be it psp or 3ds) with "absolutely everything EXCEPT npc dialog" in english (i.e. all combat, spells, all items, etc) then... both are 100% in that regard.

it's what the "scene" calls "menu patches" or "partial translations".

you want links to 'em? I ask because some ppl don't like playing if the npc dialog isn't translated, and frankly speaking that'll never happen any time soon unless magically a team bands together to do the gigantic task.

 

[Ventidius]

you want links to 'em? I ask because some ppl don't like playing if the npc dialog isn't translated, and frankly speaking that'll never happen any time soon unless magically a team bands together to do the gigantic task.

Well, it's not like I play these games for the story. Though I can see how the quests where you have to fetch and deliver items could get complicated without those dialogues. Either way I would definetely like a link.

 

[Efe]

is Ray gigant good? would i enjoy it if i liked SotSC but hated elminage gothic. (getting lost in e:gothic dungeons was great.. but inventory and random difficulty spikes i hated)

also even if its bad, is it still not worth at 2$ ?

 

[felipepepe]

is Ray gigant good? would i enjoy it if i liked SotSC but hated elminage gothic. (getting lost in e:gothic dungeons was great.. but inventory and random difficulty spikes i hated)

also even if its bad, is it still not worth at 2$ ?

It's not terrible, but it's VERY casual and story-heavy... you'll honestly have to endure like 30 minutes of cliche visual nove before even entering a dungeon. Once you do so, they are simple and not very challenging.

Think f it as a visual novel / DRPG hybrid, focused at newcomers. Operation Abyss & Babel are a better choice, IMHO.

 

[Ventidius]

is Ray gigant good? would i enjoy it if i liked SotSC but hated elminage gothic. (getting lost in e:gothic dungeons was great.. but inventory and random difficulty spikes i hated)

also even if its bad, is it still not worth at 2$ ?

If you are looking for games with good-to-great dungeon design that are not as hard as Elminage Gothic, these are the ones you can't go wrong with:

-Etrian Odyssey series - I recommend starting with 3 or Untold 1
-The Dark Spire - Like EG, this one takes heavy inspiration from Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, but it isn't as brutal as the former
-The Operation series, as mentioned by felipepepe
-Dungeon Travelers 2, if you have a Vita

 

[Efe]

guess ill skip ray gigant.
as for your suggestions, dont have vita, no discount on operation series, etrian and dark spire are not available for pc (or i couldnt find it).
do they make dungeon crawlers mostly for portable consoles these days?

 

[Ventidius]

guess ill skip ray gigant.
as for your suggestions, dont have vita, no discount on operation series, etrian and dark spire are not available for pc (or i couldnt find it).
do they make dungeon crawlers mostly for portable consoles these days?

Well, since most of the experienced crawler devs still in the business are basically all Japanese, the good releases mostly skew towards consoles; and portables seem to have become the home of RPGs in Japan it seems - which kinda makes sense when you consider that text/menu-heavy games benefit from the player being close to the screen.

Still, these Japanese devs have been porting a lot of these games to Steam lately. SOSC, EG, the Operation series... I wouldn't have expected that a few years back, so there is hope more ports will come.

That said, some Western devs have indeed joined the blobber dungeon crawler trend lately and released new games of this sort on PC. The most notable of those are probably Paper Sorcerer and StarCrawlers. Both of them are on sale right now on Steam(at least in the EU store). Paper Sorcerer is always pretty cheap anyhow. I haven't personally tried them, but from what I have glanced on the Codex my impression is "they are OK, but not as good as the Japanese crawlers", which is about what I'd expect given that Japanese devs like Starfish and EXP are veterans at this. Still, Paper Sorcerer at least is worth a shot at that price, and probably much better than Ray Gigant.

 

[Celerity]

Probably the best console for crawlers is the PSTV. It's basically a Vita but not portable and 4x cheaper. You could wait for PC ports I guess but that might be a while. You also can't be triggered over weeb shit.

 

[newtmonkey]

Since I have been enjoying Wiz 1 so much recently, I decided to check out the Japanese wiz clones I got on Steam over the last year (but never played).

1. Operation Abyss: New Tokyo Legacy
Kind of what I was worried about with these Japanese games to begin with, TONNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSS of text that was likely accurately translated but not localized at all (i.e. nothing wrong with it grammatically, but no attempt whatsoever was made to make it read like natural English), childish characters, weird Japanese obsession with kick ass little girls. I really don't get it. I just played 30 mins to get through the intro and try some battles, and the intro dungeon is a bunch of empty rooms? Kind of regretting this one.

2. Stranger of Sword City
A bit better, mostly because of the art and the fact that the text is much more naturally translated (and succinct). Was not happy that the intro area is—again—a kickass little girl saving your useless ass as enemies take out your full HP with every hit, but barely scratch her.
Getting to the hub area was annoying because then the game switched from pretty atmospheric and well-written dialog to the exposition dumps I expect from Japanese games, full of terms they decided to make up for stuff that has been in RPGs for 40 fucking years.

3. Elminage Gothic
Woah. This is more like it. I only played for 10 minutes because I need to get to bed, but this is quite shocking. It is like playing Wizardry all over again. You get a little opening movie, then you are in town and you are off. The plot is literally "Here ye, here ye, go fight some monsters" and then you are playing the game. Within 5 minutes!!!
I really like the artwork for the monsters, and the soundtrack is quite creepy on headphones. My only gripe is that the interface feels like some kind of unholy combination of console game and smartphone game.

I'll play all of these, and will most likely skip through 90% of the dialog in OA:NTL and SoSC (since most of it is "Is that..." "..." "Yes..." "Oh..." "But..." "...." "Collect Vanguard Blood Code from enemies to Source your Core to Bind Access Layer to Venture Adventure"), but I am suprised that the most "budget/shovelware" looking one of the three seems (so far) to be the most serious option of them all!

 

[Dorarnae]

Since I have been enjoying Wiz 1 so much recently, I decided to check out the Japanese wiz clones I got on Steam over the last year (but never played).

1. Operation Abyss: New Tokyo Legacy
Kind of what I was worried about with these Japanese games to begin with, TONNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSS of text that was likely accurately translated but not localized at all (i.e. nothing wrong with it grammatically, but no attempt whatsoever was made to make it read like natural English), childish characters, weird Japanese obsession with kick ass little girls. I really don't get it. I just played 30 mins to get through the intro and try some battles, and the intro dungeon is a bunch of empty rooms? Kind of regretting this one.

2. Stranger of Sword City
A bit better, mostly because of the art and the fact that the text is much more naturally translated (and succinct). Was not happy that the intro area is—again—a kickass little girl saving your useless ass as enemies take out your full HP with every hit, but barely scratch her.
Getting to the hub area was annoying because then the game switched from pretty atmospheric and well-written dialog to the exposition dumps I expect from Japanese games, full of terms they decided to make up for stuff that has been in RPGs for 40 fucking years.

3. Elminage Gothic
Woah. This is more like it. I only played for 10 minutes because I need to get to bed, but this is quite shocking. It is like playing Wizardry all over again. You get a little opening movie, then you are in town and you are off. The plot is literally "Here ye, here ye, go fight some monsters" and then you are playing the game. Within 5 minutes!!!
I really like the artwork for the monsters, and the soundtrack is quite creepy on headphones. My only gripe is that the interface feels like some kind of unholy combination of console game and smartphone game.

I'll play all of these, and will most likely skip through 90% of the dialog in OA:NTL and SoSC (since most of it is "Is that..." "..." "Yes..." "Oh..." "But..." "...." "Collect Vanguard Blood Code from enemies to Source your Core to Bind Access Layer to Venture Adventure"), but I am suprised that the most "budget/shovelware" looking one of the three seems (so far) to be the most serious option of them all!

I enjoy experience inc. game for what they are but yeah the elminage series is <3
the other good japanese wizardry are the gaiden serie. dimguil and prisoners of the battle were nice.

 

[newtmonkey]

Thank you! I will check those out.

 

[newtmonkey]

LOL
What is this guy smoking...
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/x452375769

Wizardry Gimguil PSX bug fix vers for the totally reasonable price of...
90,000,000 YEN

 

[Dorarnae]

LOL
What is this guy smoking...
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/x452375769

Wizardry Gimguil PSX bug fix vers for the totally reasonable price of...
90,000,000 YEN

damn..lol
Dimguil can be a bit expensive. like 30-50$ on ebay, I think I managed to get my copy at 20$ ish back then.
also I don't know if there's a translation, but if you don't mind playing in japanese and little bit of english (can set items and spell to english if I remember).

 

[newtmonkey]

The problem with Dimguil is that the first release was buggy (random freezes that can be avoided if you follow a bunch of specific rules). You can find that one used for cheap here. The fixed version, however, runs around 25,000 yen minimum used. I would prefer to play on actual hardware connected to a CRT TV, but in this case I might just emulate.

---

In other news, I got a refund for Operation Abyss, I simply could not stand the anime stuff and all the faux-cool jargon they invented for stuff that has been in every RPG for the last 40 years, and it annoyed me that making characters was so convoluted. (How hard would it be to just say CLASS: SAMURAI on the class selection screen?)

I bought the 3DS version of Elminage Original and OMG did I get addicted. I played for like 5 hours straight last night, just using basic classes for now (2 fighters, priest, thief, 2 mages). What a game. As much as I like the DW Bradley Wiz games, Elminage 1-gothic truly does feel like Wizardy VI-IX in an alternate universe where Sir Tech just went on refining the concept from 1-3 and 5.

 

[Dorarnae]

The problem with Dimguil is that the first release was buggy (random freezes that can be avoided if you follow a bunch of specific rules). You can find that one used for cheap here. The fixed version, however, runs around 25,000 yen minimum used. I would prefer to play on actual hardware connected to a CRT TV, but in this case I might just emulate.

---

In other news, I got a refund for Operation Abyss, I simply could not stand the anime stuff and all the faux-cool jargon they invented for stuff that has been in every RPG for the last 40 years, and it annoyed me that making characters was so convoluted. (How hard would it be to just say CLASS: SAMURAI on the class selection screen?)

I bought the 3DS version of Elminage Original and OMG did I get addicted. I played for like 5 hours straight last night, just using basic classes for now (2 fighters, priest, thief, 2 mages). What a game. As much as I like the DW Bradley Wiz games, Elminage 1-gothic truly does feel like Wizardy VI-IX in an alternate universe where Sir Tech just went on refining the concept from 1-3 and 5.

I didn't know that about dimguil. I don't remember if mine freeze. I know the ps1 version of Wizardry empire 2 has a bug though(if you ran away from a certain fixed battle the game froze).
and yeah elminage series is the best. you should of told me you were going to get elminage original, I have the pc version(I can send it to you) which in my opinion is a bit better because of faceload and musicload

 

[newtmonkey]

Thank you for the offer! I got the 3ds one though because it is more convenient to play when I am not at my desk.

 

[newtmonkey]

Put another 5 hours into Elminage Original last night (until my 3DS battery died), am officially addicted!

I'm still sticking with the basic classes and am around level 10 or so. I love how nonlinear this game is. After exploring a level, I can go downstairs to boost the difficulty, or just go explore another dungeon of roughly the same difficulty. I've been jumping mostly between exploring Cladia Cave downwards and Maulaya Forest outward.

Finally being able to afford the Flamberge is a major turning point for a starting party. Your fighter goes from 6-9 damage per turn to around 60 per enemy per row overnight. You would think that would break the game early on, but surprisingly the game still throws challenges at you in the best Wizardry tradition.

aweigh
First of all, I want to thank you for all your passionate posts on the topic of these kinds of games. You really convinced me to give all of these games a try, when I thought they would be far too primitive to enjoy (I couldn't have been more wrong!). I am still working my way through the DOS version of Wiz 1, and playing that game seriously for once has really opened my eyes to what a great game it was and is!
I am looking into picking up some of the Wizardry games that were released on the Playstation 1/2 systems. I already have Liylgamyn Saga/New Age of Liylgamyn and BUSIN, plan on getting BUSIN 0, and am waiting to find a bug-fixed version of DIMGUIL. Would you recommend Wiz Empire 1 through 3? What is this anime looking Wiz Xth game?

 

[Dorarnae]

Put another 5 hours into Elminage Original last night (until my 3DS battery died), am officially addicted!

I'm still sticking with the basic classes and am around level 10 or so. I love how nonlinear this game is. After exploring a level, I can go downstairs to boost the difficulty, or just go explore another dungeon of roughly the same difficulty. I've been jumping mostly between exploring Cladia Cave downwards and Maulaya Forest outward.

Finally being able to afford the Flamberge is a major turning point for a starting party. Your fighter goes from 6-9 damage per turn to around 60 per enemy per row overnight. You would think that would break the game early on, but surprisingly the game still throws challenges at you in the best Wizardry tradition.

aweigh
First of all, I want to thank you for all your passionate posts on the topic of these kinds of games. You really convinced me to give all of these games a try, when I thought they would be far too primitive to enjoy (I couldn't have been more wrong!). I am still working my way through the DOS version of Wiz 1, and playing that game seriously for once has really opened my eyes to what a great game it was and is!
I am looking into picking up some of the Wizardry games that were released on the Playstation 1/2 systems. I already have Liylgamyn Saga/New Age of Liylgamyn and BUSIN, plan on getting BUSIN 0, and am waiting to find a bug-fixed version of DIMGUIL. Would you recommend Wiz Empire 1 through 3? What is this anime looking Wiz Xth game?

In my opinion you can skip Wizardry Xth and Xth2. they're not 'bad' and actually better than that Class of heroes thing, but they're not awesome either. Do get Busin 0 though, if you liked the first game, you'll enjoy the second one even more, well maybe not story wise but gameplay wise it's a much better game with being able to skip all that battle animation, more classes and harder difficulty overall.
Wizardry empire series is ok. the third game is quite short though, the psp version has an additional dungeon for post game I think but no boss in it and that version of the game is quite expensive.
aweigh really likes empire 2. it's not a bad game but for me I was a bit disapointed with one of the dungeon being the same as in the first game. and those questions doors are a pain in the butt a bit, I feel like there's too many of em.
I liked the first one, but the difficulty could of been a bit higher in the game.

Dimguil is cool but personally I'd get Prisonners of the battle first, that one is really good. it's a bit more ''classic'' I guess, it doesn't have all the class like bard,valkyrie ect...but I like the loot in that game and how you can gamble for magical properties later on...
I also found the dungeon maps to be better, I mapped that game with a pen and it was nice. (only game I did that)

oh and I forgot, while elminage 1-2-3 and gothic are great. don't touch elminage Ibun, that one is garbage.

 

[aweigh]

i do agree there are waaaay too many riddle doors in Empire 2. as for the gaiden series, it has 2 great wizardry titles hidden in it:

- wiz gaiden 4: throb of the demon's heart for super nintendo

- (gaiden 6) prisoners of the battle

gaiden 4 for snes utilizes races and spell schools from wiz6 whereas gaiden 6 (PotB), like dorarnae says, is much more traditional and (in my opinion) much more enjoyable.

gaiden 6 is straight-up a wizardry 3 clone and playing it one could definitely say it is essentially a fan-scenario extra or whatever; the differences however are the addition of dual-wielding (taken from wiz 6 and onwards) and the addition of a FANTASTIC item enchantment system where you pay gold pieces to the shop owner to give any item an enchantment BUT it will be random, and it even be a negative enchantment like making your weapon cursed while buffing it in other areas.

it's not that expensive to enchant items and there is NO scumming the RNG seed for the enchantment even if abusing save-states (gaiden 6 is a PS2 game) as each weapon (apparently) loads the enchantment-seed upon weapon identification (!!!). they really wanted to avoid save-scumming for better enchantments, and they succeeded!

gaiden 4 (snes) is a feudal-japan setting transplantation of wizardry where you explore mystical caverns/dojos/japanese towers instead of a more traditional dungeon, and it has more in common with wiz 5 than any other wizardry because of the presence of multiple riddles, puzzles, talking NPCs and such things.

gaiden 6 (ps2) as mentioned is a straight-up clone of Wizardry as it was during Wiz 3 times, except with the modern additions of weapon enchanting and being able to dual-wield weapons. there are no NPCs to talk to inside dungeons and basically no puzzles except for 1 or 2 extremely basic switch-based ones (and, of course, "puzzling" dungeon design).

i enjoyed gaiden 6: PotB a lot more because IMO it has better dungeons than gaiden 4, but both of these games are easily better than 95% of any other 'crawlers you'll find out there.

newtmonkey
Dorarnae

 

[newtmonkey]

Dorarnae
Thanks for your impression on the Xth games, etc. I'll skip Xth, just doesn't seem interesting at all.


aweigh
Thank you for the writeups! I just recently got a used PS2 (mostly to play the BUSIN games), and will be on the lookout for gaiden 6. Used copies are quite expensive here, so will have to look around a bit for a deal.

 

[CryptRat]

Having a map to travel back and forth is OK but I think I prefer full maps to find than automaps for multiple reasons :
- an automap tells you exactly where you went or didn't go, and I don't like that.
- The maps can be place wherever the developper wants, and when intended finding a map may require passing through a particular obstacle first or even multi-level travel or something if some part is better without a map. Besides overall there are inevitably some cool periods where you walk "blindly".
- Finding such a map is satisfying, as much as finding some very good item, hunting for maps is a fun part of the game.

 

[aweigh]

yeah hunting for maps is a big part of Prisoner of the Battles (wiz gaiden 6 for ps2).

in each dungeon there is a hidden switch which rewards you with a complete map of the floor with unlimited access and finding the switches is half the fun.

 

[Dorarnae]

yeah hunting for maps is a big part of Prisoner of the Battles (wiz gaiden 6 for ps2).

in each dungeon there is a hidden switch which rewards you with a complete map of the floor with unlimited access and finding the switches is half the fun.

most of the time those switch are near the end of the floor, so you mostly explored the entire floor before you find the switch. which help when going back to town and then head back deeper in the dungeon...

In the very last dungeon of the game though, there are multiple switch and only one of them is the map, the others switches will RESET your map. lol.
so I ended up not checking those switch and relied on my pen/paper (because if I remember you can't even cast lvl 1 spell at first, you need to unlock them).
the very last dungeon is really awesome.