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Baltika9

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In fact, if you guys so desperately want to turn this into a Theater of Drama, I'd say A1 is your est bet:
"I'm the Maniac's Apprentice!"
"No, that big buff dude is!"
"Can there be two of them?"
"Oh, never mind, that Jing fellow lost so embarrassingly, no way he's the Maniac's student. The buff dude it is."

That, and I really, really don't want to explain to Zhang why we dressed up in a pig mask and took his name. That would be...bad.
 

Esquilax

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This debate is academic now that it's all but certain that B2 will win, so I suppose that this'll be my last word on this.

But what does that actually give us in practical terms? Why would us sparing incognito be better then us sparring under a false name when we come to them? We wouldn't gain any more information from it - in fact, we would learn less as they wouldn't talk to us while we are wearing a mask. And since we are not going to use our full capabilities anyway, them knowing that they have or haven't fought us before is irrelevant. It makes no difference if they are fighting our incognito identity or our false identity since all they are going to know about us is what we show them in the ring. And the risk of somebody noticing that we are the same person is high, unless everyone there is oblivious.

Lots. When we start challenging people down the road, they won't know that we've actually fought them before, therefore, their techniques will be known to us, but our techniques will be unknown to them. A highly perceptive and intelligent fighter might remember us if the fight lasts long, but our speed, aggression and strength will ensure that we win before that sort of fighter manages to put the pieces together. If they have seen our face before, they have a better idea of what we're capable and they're on a more even playing field with us. The more that we can make that playing field uneven, the better. You can defeat an enemy before you've even stepped into the ring.

What, morality doesn't count as an argument? All right, how about because starting this rumour could be traced back to us too easily? All it takes is for the farmer to find out why everyone is avoiding him like the plaque, deny it and then ask who said that he was the Maniac's apprentice. And then you have people looking at us funny wondering if we are lying and we have made an enemy of the farmer boy.

The only way that the Farmer boy figures out that we started the rumour is if we are dumb enough to vote for A1. Registering as Zhang's apprentice while accusing someone else of being Zhang's apprentice is really dumb, as I've said before. The farmer boy is not particularly bright (though his wife might be), so if we accuse him of being the Maniac's apprentice while keeping our hands clean, it'll work quite well.

The reason why I don't find morality to work as an argument here is because I feel you're trying to create reasons as to why C1 won't work that are ultimately influenced by your desire not to harm Guo Fu. If you don't want to put him in jeopardy, that's fine, but that doesn't make C1 any less effective.

Also, that will make the more skilled students come after us right off the bat and on the surface, that sounds fucking great: our plan is working, we get to fight them and no one gets to see our face! However, that also means that we will have to up our game and start throwing our more advanced shit out there, and this is where the problems will start: between the aggressive way we fight and the rather un-Maniac way the Farmer will fight, they'll start to put the pieces together. After all, the Maniac is called that for a reason and many people heard of his deeds, some in the crowd have actually seen him perform those deeds, so no way anyone believe that his apprentice is a mild-mannered fighter that pulls his punches, but rather the real apprentice is the guy that's using moves oddly similar to, OH SHI-, Shouwang Claws.

Good point about the Masters not yet being aware that the Southern Maniac's apprentice will be arriving. However, I would like to point out that our intention with this would not be to win, but rather to learn the techniques of our opponents. We don't have to pull out our Shouwang Claws in combat, we would simply rely on our neigong and our Mad Wolf Step to avoid damage while trying to perceive flaws as much as possible here. Remember that the bigwigs here have probably met Zhang before, and he has a rather distinctive build. They don't see our face, but Zhang is rather distinctive in that he's a huge guy who is covered in battle scars - they'd know him if they saw him, and they'll know just from our build that we're not the man himself, and likely some joker trying to stir the pot. Remember, the goal here is not to win, it's to learn.

Begging that question is irrelevant, though, because he isn't a jerk at all. What we don't want to do is cause some great harm to the poor chap because he has done nothing deserving of it. Like I was trying to say in my post, and I probably horribly failed to get the point across, we don't know how much trouble we would be putting him in if we spread rumors about him. As I see it, at least, we are weighing the possible gain of misdirecting some suspicion from us onto him, but we are gambling with the unknown nature of the deceit. While it might be just that, rumors, for all we know it could lead to his getting cast out of the pugilistic world or even getting he or his wife killed or wounded.

I am more willing to accept personal responsibility for hiding our identity and the faults that could come of that than I am willing to gamble with an innocent man's future. We are Tigers, not Monkeys!

I disagree with you on the approach, but you know what, this is an attitude that I can respect. You feel uncomfortable with using the man for your own ends, you don't want to stoop to that level, and that's that. I'm totally cool with that. What I am not cool with is manufacturing these rationalizations that C1 won't be effective when deep down, you probably know that it is. This is why I felt that the question was quite relevant, btw. People don't want to fuck the nice, honest guy and his sweet wife over - really, that's reason enough not to do it! You don't have to invent any other ones.
 

treave

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Guys, guys, I'll just remind you that we have an INT stat of 7. He may be cunning, but he's no genius mastermind. This doesn't affect any of the choices here, which can be viable in creating the desired effect on the competition even at his level of intelligence, but do keep in mind that if you really wanted to play a super smart character that pulls everyone's strings, and has exceedingly complex, farsighted plans, you lost that chance when character voting closed. The stats just don't justify such an ability. You may have your own plans as voters, but it doesn't mean the character will be capable of pulling it off.

If you really want a master plan in-game, you are better off finding a strategist NPC who can provide you with one. For now, what is happening here is that the character is pretty much making things up as he goes, improvising a very bare bones plan. Shulgi he is not, not even with a successful C.
 
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Baltika9

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Yeah, that's something that really confuses and pisses me off, voting based on our previous characters. Self referential humor is fine and dandy, but who gives a shit what Shulgi/Ean/Marius Hax/Jeremiah would do in this situation.
Xu Jing is Xu Jing, he's his own guy with his own story. On that note,
B2
 

Helly

Translating for brofists
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Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Aubtey.jpg
+
Tony.jpg
= :yeah:
 

Tigranes

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I'm still reading through the thread but for god's sake:

If you're going to do B, do C! There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to do B. It's exactly the same but we are LESS ANONYMOUS. What is more anonymous, "John Doe the Merchant's Son" you met + "John Doe the Merchant's Son" you see in the ttournament... vs "John Doe the Merchant's Son who already said he's not sure he will compete" + "Zhang Jue Trololo"? It is just painfully obvious and none of the B voters have actually explained at all why it's better. With C, onlookers won't even be sure we competed, and people won't even remember our face because they can't freaking see it. If we slip and lay the smack down or use a Zhang technique, other participnts may know but onlookers won't know it's John Doe the Merchant's Son...look, C has no downsides to B and many potential upsides AND is funnier. What's with this "B2 kthxbai" bandwagon?

As for 1/2 and Esquilax's plan, I obviously am supportive of misdirection. For those reluctant to screw the Farmer over I think the rumours this creates will make things uncertain enough that the Farmer is not screwed over much.

As for the intelligence warning, sure Jing is not Senya or Dio but I think he's already proved he's quick on his feet and good enough with his words to do this. It's not particularly complicated - just maintain our meek mild-mannered identity and say we did this to hopefully make our opponents a bit apprehensive so we won't be beaten up too badly, and of course, guys, my Shaolin buddies, you know I'm not the apprentice.

Besides, we will be creating the situation: "I'M ZHANG JUE! NO, I"M ZHANG JUE!"
 

Tigranes

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Having read all the posts: guys, if you are refusing C1 on grounds of morality or wanting Jing to be a more front and centre fellow, fine: pick C2, which is clearly the best bet for anonymity.

B2 is neither the best option for manipulation nor for anonymity. It reduces the value of our merchant's son persona, it reveals our face to the world, and if we do screw up and show ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZhang's techniqueees or something the repercussions are higher. For NO TANGIBLE BENEFIT whatsoever, I haven't read a single thing saying why B2 is better than C2.
 

treave

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Yeah, my warning wasn't so really much for this choice, rather than hedging against a dark and terrible future where people get butthurt their long game meta-plan didn't pan out the way it would because they overestimated the character's intelligence, thinking that he was just as smart as they are.
 

Kipeci

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We told the monks that we would be participating. If our face doesn't appear, we must be one of the masked fighters. Specifically, we'll be the masked fighter that otherwise looks exactly like us. If we succumb to the r00fles and declare that we are Zhang, presumably they're going to be rather confused by our behavior and things could unravel rather heavily from there if you really are stuck on that anonymity bent.
 

Tigranes

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Wrong.

Young Master Guan! What a pleasure to see you here!” shouts out a monk as he hurries over. He bows at you with his palms placed together and you return the gesture. The monk is Xuzhan; you had helped him and his friends exit the maze of brothels and gambling dens yesterday. “I didn’t know you were participating!”

“Perhaps. I am not sure if I will. My meagre skill at martial arts managed to win a crest, and convince my father to let me come, but looking at the level of competition here I am afraid I will not be able to get anywhere,” you say nervously. In truth, what you have seen so far does not impress you one bit.

We said we are not sure about participating. We can choose to keep the mask on the whole tim, if we want / need, dodging recognition; or we can simply say we were nervous, etc.

Wearing a mask is NOT suspicious because many people are doing it. And our Shaolin friends already talked about how those 'jokers' aren't taken very seriously, so it HELPS us - in C1's confusion, or in C2's low profile.

Again, my point is if you want anonymity and no fucking about with tricks, C2 > B2. Again, I have not yet heard any positive reason for the reverse.
 

Baltika9

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Having read all the posts: guys, if you are refusing C1 on grounds of morality or wanting Jing to be a more front and centre fellow, fine: pick C2, which is clearly the best bet for anonymity.

B2 is neither the best option for manipulation nor for anonymity. It reduces the value of our merchant's son persona, it reveals our face to the world, and if we do screw up and show ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZhang's techniqueees or something the repercussions are higher. For NO TANGIBLE BENEFIT whatsoever, I haven't read a single thing saying why B2 is better than C2.
The contrast isn't as horrible as you think. All concerns about the Farmer aside now: B lets us blend in with the unmasked participants as our affable merchant persona, and it's a great cover. With Jing's social skills and Quiling's tips from last night, we can definitely pull this off so that we can completely blend in with the crowd and socialize with our marks. Nobody's going to talk freely to the dude in the mask. However, we won't be able to push our opponents too far lest they get suspicious.
 

Tigranes

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Given we can opt to wear our mask during the fights and take it off, C2 gives us more flexibility; with B we are stuck to our persona comee what may.
 

Absinthe

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Not voting, but I'll note that Yifang will probably be participating. Cao'er might participate. Songfeng school might also have a participant. At any rate, Cao'er will definitely be watching the participants.

Treave, we still have chances to raise int, right?
 

Baltika9

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Given we can opt to wear our mask during the fights and take it off, C2 gives us more flexibility; with B we are stuck to our persona comee what may.
The mask only gives us one unmasking ticket, that's it, and it has to be public, otherwise no one will acknowlesge tge newbie.
My point still stands that no one will talk openly with the masked joker or after he publically takes ot off.

Going in masked gives other advantages, like us being able to fight harder without bringing attention on our merchant persona. But that nullifies our social strengths, and Jing is very skilled in that area. I really do thonk that 1B is to our best advantage.
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Esquilax said:
Look, if you don't like bending the rules, why did you vote unorthodox to begin with? I'm not saying that unorthodox = asshole, but you have to be willing to use an orthodox character's general naivete against them. They have the contacts and the big sect behind them, but we've got the "art of skulduggery" as Mike Tyson put it in his documentary. I don't understand, what is your goal here? Do you even want to complete Zhang's challenge? Or Shun's mission? Because if you don't, well, you have a completely different idea of the character than I do and a vastly different perception of things, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
Okay. *Takes a deep breath*

It should have been painfully obvious by now that we do not have the same idea of what Jing's character is and how it should develop.

Let's remember some of your last choices and arguments:
* murder Song Lingshu in her sleep to dispose of one of your marks faster
* expose Cao'er's story to the public and bring the shame upon Abbess Miecao so that you could use the ensuing outrage to your own advantage
* screw over the boy who already has it tough to draw away attention from yourself

You are not saying that unorthodox = asshole, you are embracing it.

I went with unorthodox to be able to break the rules I don't like, not to make a habit of breaking whatever rules I come across whenever an opportunity presents itself. There are such things as principles. I said time and time again that I do not place much importance on Zhang's mission if it will transform me into his likeness along the way.

I understand that we were bestowed a rare chance to have one of the Great Pugilists as our master, but I do not think that seeing the apprenticeship to it's logical conclusion would be best for us. Zhang's idea of a perfect warrior is of a man that knows no fear because he has no attachments. No one fights more furiously than the one who has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Zhang does not seem to have any emotions left in him except for his ever-present amusement at what others consider important in life. I have not seen him holding any other values safe for personal power, and he does not seem to care about anybody.

But I do. I care for the people that have been kind to me and that I consider to be my family (Shun, Yao and Cao'er), I care for the people I kind of started to befriend but was forced to separate from for a long time (Qilin), I care for the people that I only met briefly (Lihua, Yifang, Xiahou and the poor farmer couple, some of them I literally knew for no longer than a day), and I care for the ones I didn't get to meet in person at all (Song Lingshu). It doesn't mean I care for all people equally, or that somewhere down the road I'll start hugging strangers and stepping over ladybugs. I don't believe in love and peace, and neither am I a fan of honor before reason approach. I have no mercy for my enemies - should I chance upon Rong Jr. the Second, I will be the first to drop the sword and unsheathe my dagger. But I will not betray friends, turn down allies or involve bystanders, not unless my life would depend on it, and some things I won't do even then. This is how I differentiate myself from Zhang. This is how I maintain my individuality. This is how I perceive the practical side of his teachings while rejecting the greater idea behind them, which I find detestable - I make a conscious choice to care.

Some time back you were worried that Zhang would be a bad influence on Jing, and promoted a choice that many considered silly - writing poetry over the corpses of your animal friends - to withstand the taint his tutelage might bring. I did find that method admirable in its subtlety. Yet now that the training is over and we are out of his reach for the moment, you seem to think that the danger have already passed, and there is no need to exercise caution. You seem to think of these 'unorthodox' ideas as a sign of Jing growing up, while I view them as a herald of corruption that will slowly corrode our soul if we do not resist it. Zhang still has us in his grasp. He did task us with a mission so difficult that it is almost impossible to complete without resorting to a dirty trick or two. Or a hundred. It will gnaw at your integrity bit by bit, like water wears away the stone, until you find yourself perfectly fine with anything to achieve your ends. This is how Zhang goes around his business - walking over corpses like other people do over grass, and taking what he wants. If we do not want to become this, we should not make such decisions lightly, and we certainly should avoid them if there are alternatives. It does not have anything to do with honor, orthodoxy and the like - it is preserving the basic human decency we are talking about here.

Telling me that not wanting to break what I consider the backbone of the character makes me into a pussy who does not have it in him to accomplish Shun's mission and probably does not even care about it is a fallacy and a straw man argument of the worst kind.

[End of rant]

Right. Now that it is out of the way, about the update.

The choice between A, B and C is whether we go under our own identity, our existing false identity, or making a second false identity just to mess with people.

I do not fancy A because at most it accomplishes the same as C1, only it links our face to our actions and blows our merchant story to pieces. I can't understand how the outburst it will inevitably cause might be used to further our goals, unless we go for the win, or resume Tigranes plan from the previous update.

Esquilax's C1 lets us get up close and personal with our marks, while shutting off any chances of communicating with other participants. Who would want to talk to a masked figure who may or may not be Zhang's apprentice? Unless we succeed in making the whole thing into a farce, I do not see us chatting happily like we just did with Shaolin monks and their ilk. C1 makes it easier for us to last against the best among the best, as no one knows if we are a real thing or not - it would be hard for them to make anything out of our mish-mash style if we do not resort to the outright outlawed techniques (so you can use your Mad Wolf Step - it won't be linked back to Xu Jing), and our merchant persona is somewhat safe from suspicion.

I say somewhat because you still have to take the mask off once the matches are over. You aren't exactly inconspicuous walking the streets in that thing. It leaves a chance of exposure if someone sees you taking the mask off. I guess this is why you have taken lessons from Qilin on losing tails in a city, but double identity always carries an extra risk.

Strangely, C2 accomplishes most of the same, though with less confusion your opponents will pay more attention to your slip ups. It still allows you to fight back without being asked questions later, and it carries the same drawbacks. It is certainly less effective, but more humane, should anyone dislike stepping over peoples heads. Like I do.

You can't fight as freely in B2, since, well, a merchant boy out of the woods with no school affiliation beating up their champions is bound to raise eyebrows and focus the attention on you. And you don't want your fighting style to be associated with your face. So the most you would be able to afford is to observe your marks from afar while beating the mooks with regular skills. It leaves far more options to talk with the other participants, however.

B1 I don't find particularly attractive. Combatants will just swarm Guo Fu as their only target, and then they might realize he isn't the real deal. At least in C1, it serves some purpose, splitting their attention.

The choice between C1 and B2 comes down to where you want to look for information - either you learn of your opponents' moves in combat, or you learn of their personalities and habits behind the scenes. Since I was content to be an observer anyway, and we went in anonymously to socialize in the "locker room", B2 is the choice I am naturally inclined to make.

As for the farmer we've just met, I may not exactly want to 'make friends' with a person I've known for 5 minutes and I might never see again in my life. However, I do not wish to antagonize them either, for personal reasons. So it cements my vote. B2.

Edit: Flopped to C2 due to the clarification from treave.
 
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Kashmir Slippers

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A question for treave.

Is there anything to gain from this tournament? Aside from gaining knowledge about our opponents, is there anything physical that we could earn? If we get in xth place do we get some cash or something, or is it just an honor thing?
 

Baltika9

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But I do. I care for the people that have been kind to me and that I consider to be my family (Shun, Yao and Cao'er), I care for the people I kind of started to befriend but was forced to separate from for a long time (Qilin), I care for the people that I only met briefly (Lihua, Yifang, Xiahou and the poor farmer couple, some of them I literally knew for no longer than a day), and I care for the ones I didn't get to meet in person at all (Song Lingshu).
B-but what about Yunzi, man? :(
 

Nevill

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I didn't know where to place her. In my heart, she is as good as family, but baka Jing doesn't see it that way yet. He'll learn one day. :D
 

Tigranes

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I am broadly sympathetic to Nevill's sentiment and agree with his view of Jing. At the same time, I think it's hugely exaggerated theatrics for the current situation because C1 is nothing like Esquilax's other heinous plans like selling out the Abbess (and to be fair, he only very briefly entertained that). It doesn't put the Farmer's life in danger, and it doesn't even sabotage his tournament hopes significantly. It doesn't betray Zhang (who would be amused) or any of our friends, it doesn't compromise Jing's missions or morals in any significant way.

That said, I've now heard more reasonable arguments for B2. It's a pity I can already see crystal clear the very obvious way it will pan out: sometime during combat we will have to make use of some our techniques, and the more astute observers - whether Masters in the crowd, or the other young stars we fight - will think, we've seen this before... this John Doe, merchant's son, worth watching. Oh, I see our Shaolin disciples / friends have already spoken to this boy, let's collect all that information and file it away... oh, look who have we here, this exact same man turns up on our doorstep later demanding a challenge! I don't think necessarily we wll be identified as Zhang Jue's disciple (though catastrophe can happen with any choice), but I think we're setting ourselves up for a suboptimal result further down the line when our challenges might require additional subterfuge.

It's short-sighted thinking that compromises our original objective of anonymity on a spurious imagination that C1 makes us a baby-eater, or the idea that Jing is too stupid to handle wearing a mask during the fight (C2) and talking maskless with other combatants.
 

Baltika9

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The challenges must come from Xu Jing, Zhang Jue's disciple, though. We can't mask that at the Monasteries, they'll know. Which is why I think it is more valuable to invest in analyzing our marks' personalities so that we know which buttons to press to goad them into a fight later on.
 

Nevill

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Tigranes said:
At the same time, I think it's hugely exaggerated theatrics for the current situation because C1 is nothing like Esquilax's other heinous plans like selling out the Abbess (and to be fair, he only very briefly entertained that). It doesn't put the Farmer's life in danger, and it doesn't even sabotage his tournament hopes significantly. It doesn't betray Zhang (who would be amused) or any of our friends, it doesn't compromise Jing's missions or morals in any significant way.
It's not a bad plan, I'll give it that. However, we do not know what implications it will have on farmer's life and his ability to become accepted into a martial school. It is not our decision to make, man, to mess with someone's life like that. I find it incompatible with my view of the character.

C2 is really less effective than that. B2 and C1 seem like the best of the bunch.

We don't need to win the tournament, so I don't see why would we use our unorthodox techniques. If we are pressed into it by one of the champions, we can just lose on purpose. Nobody would monitor John Doe, though, if we won't start making rapid progress at the tournament.

That said, going with our face open has its own risks. I'd suggest perusing this list and try to find who we may encounter. Cao'er and Rong Muben come to mind. Xiahou is a long shot, but if he is here I can see him being oblivious enough to call us by our real name.
 

Esquilax

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Nevill, I've suggested doing a few shady things, sure, and I quickly became convinced that ratting out the Abbess was a bad idea, but I don't think it's fair for you to use past decisions like that against me. Nevertheless, in the middle of your rant, you never really answered my question - what's your goal? My goal is that I want to accomplish Zhang's mission and find out what the Prince is up to after neglecting his mission for so long. Look, we possess mostly lethal techniques and are under a mission from a man who is universally feared and hated - we'll be in a position in which we might have to kill someone in the future, and you have to accept that. We'll just get way more out of C1 than we will from B2.

Esquilax's C1 lets us get up close and personal with our marks, while shutting off any chances of communicating with other participants. Who would want to talk to a masked figure who may or may not be Zhang's apprentice? Unless we succeed in making the whole thing into a farce, I do not see us chatting happily like we just did with Shaolin monks and their ilk. C1 makes it easier for us to last against the best among the best, as no one knows if we are a real thing or not - it would be hard for them to make anything out of our mish-mash style if we do not resort to the outright outlawed techniques (so you can use your Mad Wolf Step - it won't be linked back to Xu Jing), and our merchant persona is somewhat safe from suspicion.
...
The choice between C1 and B2 comes down to where you want to look for information - either you learn of your opponents' moves in combat, or you learn of their personalities and habits behind the scenes. Since I was content to be an observer anyway, and we went in anonymously to socialize in the "locker room", B2 is the choice I am naturally inclined to make.

Not true, we'd still have our merchant boy persona for the times that we aren't in the ring - this is why we take off the mask and switch back into the merchant persona. The purpose is to gain the knowledge of both their psychological and their technical weaknesses. Our persona as a merchant boy will allow us to fly under the radar and make a few friends, while our Zhang Jue alias allows us to test out what sort of abilities our marks have in combat. Provided we pull off the ruse competently, we will get knowledge of both the technical and the psychological holes that we can exploit. In that sense, I feel that it's the best of both worlds.

The really tricky part will be in switching from one identity to another when we take the mask off. We would need to avoid prying eyes, and that isn't going to be easy.

I say somewhat because you still have to take the mask off once the matches are over. You aren't exactly inconspicuous walking the streets in that thing. It leaves a chance of exposure if someone sees you taking the mask off. I guess this is why you have taken lessons from Qilin on losing tails in a city, but double identity always carries an extra risk.

Strangely, C2 accomplishes most of the same, though with less confusion your opponents will pay more attention to your slip ups. It still allows you to fight back without being asked questions later, and it carries the same drawbacks. It is certainly less effective, but more humane, should anyone dislike stepping over peoples heads. Like I do.

Absolutely, agree with you completely. That's why you you need C1 to make the mask plan work. But yeah, no arguments here.

It's not a bad plan, I'll give it that. However, we do not know what implications it will have on farmer's life and his ability to become accepted into a martial school. It is not our decision to make, man, to mess with someone's life like that. I find it incompatible with my view of the character.

I have no issues with the rest of your post here, but what is your view of the character? I am getting the feeling that at times you are treating Xu Jing as the character that you want him to be rather than the character that he is. "Oh, I don't like that Jing is so automatic and reflexive when it comes to killing people. We should change that." "I don't like that Jing is so fervently loyal to the Prince. We should change that." "I don't like that Jing would have killed Song Lingshu had he been ordered to do so. We should change that."

“If you order me to kill Song Lingshu, I will,” you say quietly.

“It is not an order. I am asking if you are willing to perform my duties for me.”

Personally, I like him as he is - he just doesn't happen to be this heroic guy that you want to turn him into. Not saying characters can't change and evolve, but perhaps you see him as a lot more heroic than I do. However, treave, would have the answer here: when it comes to fulfilling an order, just how far is Jing willing to go? I just don't know what kind of version of the character that you have, but I am becoming more convinced that it is far different than the one that I have read. I see a guy who is loyal, protective of those close to him, yes, but also willing to do whatever the fuck it takes to fulfil his duties. And if that involves getting his hands dirty, well, he'll do that too.

Perhaps treave can give us a better idea of Jing's moral compass as well. But my point is that I see no reason to try and change everything about this character because every personality trait isn't to your liking. The flaws are part of the appeal too.
 
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Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
The challenges must come from Xu Jing, Zhang Jue's disciple, though. We can't mask that at the Monasteries, they'll know. Which is why I think it is more valuable to invest in analyzing our marks' personalities so that we know which buttons to press to goad them into a fight later on.

We don't have to say it before we fight them. Moreover, we could wear the mask to the challenges also. Imagine:

'Oh, here is a man who claims to be Zhang's disciple come to challenge our best. Bloody hell, it's that weird dude wearing his pig mask. Isn't he the one that got beaten soundly in the tournament? It's hard to remember since there were several such ridiculouas fellows, but none of them were a big threat.

Oh, wait, he's just kicked my disciple's butt with some moves that are unmistakeably of Zhang's teaching! Who the hell is this guy? Is he the same guy wearing that mask back in the tournament? It can't be! The fighting style and prowess is miles apart. This must be the real disciple. But was he at the tournament? Under another name? Another mask? Who is the real Zhang Jue Disciple? I'll have to warn the other sects, but how will they know if they are being challenged by the real thing?'

As opposed to the B2 option:

'Oh, here's the fellow who claims to be Zhang's disciple come to challenge our best. I've never seen himb efore... oh, wait, he was that mild-mannered fellow who lost in the tournament."

Look, whichever way you cut it, C1/C2 does everything B2 does and more. Your point about socialising with our marks more? We can do that with C2, we already went over this a dozen times - we can take our mask off in the locker room with that option. Sorry for sounding like a dick but you keep saying again and again the same mistaken stuff.
 

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