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MASS EFFECT 5 - yes or no

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
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So yeah, the narrative of Doom Eternal beats Andromeda.

Wow, then the story of Andremeda must have been really bad, because the story of Doom Eternal is a complete mess.

Back to the circlejerk already, boys? Make an unsubstantiated claim, get a reply from someone who hasn't played both games, drawing an outlandish conclusion from thin air.

Circlejerk of life finds a way. It may not be true, but it feels so good to think it is true, so keep on jerking boys!

A separate thought; so yeah, the narrative of MYST beats Ultima VII the Black Gate.

Wow, then the story of Ultima VII the Black Gate must have been really bad because the story of MYST is a complete mess.

Andromeda does not have great combat.

Best in the ME series by far, no contest. I wouldn't describe it as "great combat", but I wouldn't describe any combat in an RPG to be "great".

In MEA, combat is strategic, fluid and fun. It's not for combatfags, that's true.

This is the codex, unsubstantiated claims are the norm. Story quality is also naturally subjective. Although I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a BioWare game story worse than Andromeda's 30-hour snoozefest. It's really Andromeda's lackluster companions that set it apart. Basically any BioWare game with companions had better companions.

I do agree with you on combat though, it's the best in the series.
 

Dramart

Learned
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It's going to be trash because the writers are cunts. The best story is from the first game, bring back Drew Karpyshyn and make girls with round booty like Miranda.
 

Padzi

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vdweller

GyuxRBl.jpg
 

Tytus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
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Mazovia



Commander Jane Shepard would never forget the night her life changed, the night she first discovered the true depths of her own depravity and perversion. The Normandy was enjoying a month of well-earned shore leave on Earth when her omni-tool buzzed, alerting her to a new extranet message. She only took the briefest glance at her wrist as she swiped away the notification; it seemed to be a video file from an address she didn’t know. Figuring it was spam, it wasn’t until she had undressed in her captain's quarters that night that she tapped away at her omni-tool, saw the unopened file in her inbox, and took a better look at it.

The finger she just used to tap the command to open her mail paused over the hovering omni-tool. The picture used as a preview for the video file was a close up of a smooth, hairless, and human cunt. A curious and smirking smile crossed Jane’s face. The confusion of the type of video quickly gave away to growing interest and arousal. Jane happened to love women hairless just like that, and it seems like some idiot had sent her their private sex tape without meaning to.

She sort of had to watch it, didn’t she? Her finger lingered over the orange floating button, then hit it. After when dawn came on the Normandy tomorrow, Jane Shepard would never be the same woman.

It wasn’t just any video, it was a recording of a rape. Worse than that, it wasn’t just any woman being raped, it was someone Jane knew intimately; Miranda Lawson.

Jane Shepard stared in shock at the grunting and moaning Miranda on the video as the man on top of her was fucking her so hard the bed was rocking against the durasteel wall in the background. Jane didn’t have any doubts that this encounter wasn’t consensual; her first officer and occasional lover was crying sharply in pain at every thrust of her rapist’s frankly massive cock. One of the monster’s hands was on her perfectly formed throat, squeezing it red. A look of pure revulsion crossed Miranda’s face as the rapist licked the falling tears away from her face.

Jane broke out of her shock and hit the pause button on her video, the revolted face of pain on Miranda frozen as her rapists’s thick cock pushed deep inside of her. Snapping her eyes up from the video she spoke to the room.

“EDI, where is Miranda Lawson?”

Nearly before she finished speaking, the nearly robotic tones of the artificial intelligence of the Normandy replied.

“Unknown, Commander. She has not returned from her shore leave yet.”

Her eyes dropped back down to the frozen video. Fuck. Miranda could be in danger, was clearly in some danger. The seconds went on, but Jane didn’t do anything. Her nude body had a strange tingling that she hadn’t really encountered before. In the end, she made a choice.

She hit the play button.

It takes her just three more minutes before her hand starts to drift between her thighs and stroke her damp slit. She laid there nude on the bed transfixed as two men joined the first raping Miranda, one claiming her cunt and one burying himself in Miranda’s genetically perfect ass. Jane sunk her fingers into her cunt as one of Miranda’s rapists came down her perfect throat. Even through every gag and sputter, Miranda didn’t complain and barely moved or reacted. She stares at the camera blankly as her face is raped, and the man fucking her cunt groans in climax and fills her cunt with cum.

Jane was deeply in love with her girlfriend Liara, but the couple had an understanding. Shepard was a woman with ravenous needs, and Liara couldn’t always be there to satisfy them because of her own duties as the Shadow Broker. The asari was in love with Shepard possibly even more than Shepard was with her, so the blue alien overlooked her lover’s indiscretions with the other female members of the Normandy crew.

Miranda had been one of those indiscretions, one of the them that Jane liked to think back rather fondly on, if with a little frustration. See, Miranda was straight. She was perfectly genetically curated and created by her father to be the peak of perfection; but she had a flaw. She wasn’t really attracted to Jane, or any woman. She submitted to pleasing Jane with her amazing tongue and even more skilled fingers out of a sense of deference and thanks for all the work saving the galaxy, not to mention her own sister, Jane had done.

Her cunt spasmed as she curled her finger inside of it, pumping her fingers into herself at the same speed that one of her best friends was getting raped on the screen in front of her. The group repositioned themselves on the video, and Jane was treated to a full view of Miranda’s hairless cunt - red and swollen from the fucking of course, but it glistened not only with cum but with Miranda’s own natural arousal.

Shepard could see that Miranda was wet with arousal, and anger flared deep inside of her own heart and stomach. She started attacking her cunt with her own fingers harder. How dare the slut on the screen be getting off to this? Jane remembered vividly how hard it had been to get her lover in a similar mood, and ended up having to use lube to facilitate the fucking the Spectre would give with dildos and such to her subordinate.

Everything Shepard did to please Miranda and it usually did nothing; and here the little rapewhore was getting off to the abuse happening to her.

Miranda was crying now, her face streaming hot and wet tears.

The man who had been raping Miranda’s mouth moved between her legs when they repositioned. His cock was so massive Shepard felt a twinge of imagined pain as she watched him force the entire length into her lover’s cunt, Miranda howling in pain around the new cock that filled her mouth.

At this point even more people entered the room and Miranda started to beg for mercy, for a rest. They gave her none, and soon the genetically perfect woman was surrounded by so many men she very nearly couldn’t be seen, only the thrusting motions of her body being fucked could be observed.

It wasn’t long before Shepard could see her lover’s face again, tear-covered and red. Her eyes are rolled into the back of the head and her mouth slackly open for the cock raping it. Shepard took a massive inhaled breath, and suddenly came around the fingers fucking her own cunt.

There was a rope around Miranda’s neck that went up and off screen. Somehow in the scrum around her to fuck and rape her, one of her assailants slipped a noose around her neck and tightened it. After all Shepard watched, that is what made her cum. The complete lack of contempt for Miranda’s perfect life, for the woman they were destroying. She wasn’t the height of human perfection to them, she was just the lowest of whore trash to them.

Because that’s what Miranda Lawson was to them. A whore piece of trash.

Shepard knew she shouldn’t watch the rest of the video, but her orgasm kept going on, quickly followed by a second, and then a third when she grabbed her omni-tool dildo and crammed her own cunt full of it as the grand finale of the video arrived.

A man entered the screen, but unlike the dozens that have been raping Miranda over the rest of the video, he was wearing a black skin tight suit that fit his muscular form particularly well. With a tinge of realization and anger, Shepard noticed that the suit was N7, the Systems Alliance designation for special forces. It even had the N7 helmet with the darkened visor to hide the identity of the man, but not the voice which Shepard didn't recognize.

“This one is for you, Jane.”

And with that, he grabbed the other end of the rope and gave it a sudden strong pull, hoisting Miranda Lawson into the air right from the ground where she was laying. She rose up and up into the air until her toes were entirely off the metal floor of the room. She immediately started to strangle, her hands flying ineffectively to the rope crushing her pretty little neck.

Miranda’s eyes were staring straight at the camera as her face turned from red to purple. Shepard never took her eyes off the writhing, lethally dancing perfect body of her friend and lover as her unmitigated demise was happening. She came again, and again, during this extremely short time as Miranda’s powerful legs began to spastically twitch, losing their more precise movements.

On the screen before the masturbating Shepard, the fingers and hands of Miranda Lawson slipped from the rope and dangled twitchily alongside her swaying torso. The very last flicker of light in her friend’s eyes finally faded, snuffed out by the helmeted and dressed man still standing in the background of the shot.

Shepard felt an anger she’d never felt before. She also felt an arousal she never felt before, never stopping the pumping of the omni-dildo into her cunt as the only sound on the video became the gentle creak of the rope that suspended the literal dead weight of Miranda’s corpse.

The man wearing the N7 suit stepped closer to the camera until only the visor of the helmet was in the shot, blissfully obscuring the obscene corpse of her friend and finally letting Shepard’s mind focus on him. She could hear his breathing and thought she could just see his eyes through the darkened black visor.

“This was because of you, Shepard. This won't be the last time you hear from me.”

There was something familiar in the voice of the masked man, but Shepard couldn’t place it. It wasn't anyone in the Alliance she knew, it had to be someone wearing the outfit to mock and infuriate Shepard - and it worked. The video abruptly ended after his statement, and the sweaty nude Shepard stayed panting on the bed. There was so much work to do as her first officer, friend, and lover had just been executed because of Jane, as a message or threat to her.

There was so much to do, Jane knew. Her fingers tap-tapped on her omni-tool, and the video started anew from the start. Another tap-tap on the tool caused the omni-dildo in her cunt to start vibrating.

All of that would have to wait until tomorrow, Shepard had to watch the video again.


:deathclaw::deathclaw::deathclaw::shredder::shredder::shredder::deathclaw::deathclaw::deathclaw:
:timetoburn::timetoburn::timetoburn:
 

DalekFlay

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I do agree with you on combat though, it's the best in the series.

I mostly suffered through Andromeda for the sci-fi visuals, but the combat really wasn't terrible. At least as a sniper assassin type. Much less popamole than 2 and 3.
 
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Seriously still don't get Torment. The setting is so fucking boring, it's almost entirely just shit you've already seen in D&D and elsewhere, except done worse. The fact that virtually all problems are solved with at least some kind of violence (with skill checks only letting you avoid a fraction of the killing) makes the whole thing even more boring, it's difficult to care about the setting or characters when you kill like 500 faceless, nameless people every single day.
you're very right my dude.
 

Atlantico

unida e indivisible
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But 'strategic'? Perhaps you should elaborate because it looks like you've just added it to your list because you associate it with something positive.

There are different character builds to consider, there are different weapon builds to consider, enemy types with different defenses, different body parts, which react differently to different weapons, builds and environment.

It means, that just running into any encounter without thinking, will get you hurt or dead. In other words, you have strategic resources at your disposal, and you can use them to improve your odds.

It's still a twitch shooter, not Rainbow Six, and it's definitely not for combatfags but there is strategy in the combat, more so than ever in any ME game before it.

This is the codex, unsubstantiated claims are the norm.

A long and proud tradition in these parts.

Story quality is also naturally subjective. Although I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a BioWare game story worse than Andromeda's 30-hour snoozefest.

You don't have to go far, DAI and Anthem are both easily worse than MEA.

This focus on the main story is fine and all, but it's actually the side-missions which give MEA the clear advantage. They're quite good and make for excellent worldbuilding. The main story is serviceable, though uninspired.

Unlike, e.g. DAI, where side missions had nothing to do with the main plot or world, and were just collect-a-thons. The few collect-a-thons in MEA are at least part of the worldbuilding, so as you conclude them, *something usually happens* to change the game world. In DAI, you got an achievement.

Regardless, this is subjective to a large degree, and my position is that there hasn't been a good story in ME games anyway since the first one. The rest has all been garbage-tier.
 
Last edited:

J1M

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14,629
You are also exaggerating the enemy variety.

Regardless, it's not really a strategic choice when one of the game's main features is the option to change your skill trees and abilities mid-combat.
 

Atlantico

unida e indivisible
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You are also exaggerating the enemy variety.

I am not, let me quote myself: There are different [...] enemy types with different defenses, different body parts, which react differently to different weapons.

This is all spot on, and no exaggeration. You don't like it, doesn't matter. It is what it is. MEA has plenty of flaws, no need to make new ones up, just because.

Regardless, it's not really a strategic choice when one of the game's main features is the option to change your skill trees and abilities mid-combat.

You have to build your skill trees beforehand. It is not feasible to be a master of everything.

You can switch skill trees mid combat, but you can't change your loadout. You're stuck with whatever weapons you chose before leaving the ship, or station.

Changing skill trees is not impactful if you don't have the equipment to support it, so you have to make skill trees that make sense in that frame.

No matter how you try to twist and turn it, MEA has combat strategy.

You won't go far in the game just by smashing the awesome button. MEA combat is competently made.
 

madhouse

Guest
I can't stand the trend of doing re-makes and the need for endless sequels. Just make something new.
EDIT: No.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
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Messages
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You don't have to go far, DAI and Anthem are both easily worse than MEA.

Regardless, this is subjective to a large degree, and my position is that there hasn't been a good story in ME games anyway since the first one. The rest has all been garbage-tier.

Oh fuck, Anthem was so bad I completely forgot it even fucking existed. However, like most people who saw the trainwreck in realtime, I never paid for it so I have no idea what the story was about. I'll give you the point though, although I think DAI's companion dialogue and lore (despite both being quite bad) still give it an edge over MEA.

I'll go against the grain and say that the story, although perhaps not the writing, of the first ME is more generic and uninspired than ME2. The collectors were a better group antagonist than the geth, and the companions were also generally an upgrade over the cast of 1, with the exception of Wrex. 2 is also where best boi Garrus and Tali really came into their characters as well.
 

Atlantico

unida e indivisible
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Probably too long for his own good. Poor guy have lost good taste.

Really, in a Mass Effect thread? Nobody posting here has any ground to claim to have "good taste".

It really comes down to what kind of shlock you like; for people who liked ME1, and thought ME2 was hot garbage, they made MEA.

For people who liked ME2, they made DAI.
 

Irxy

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Schism
Project: Eternity
ME isnt anything like a Star Trek concept tho... never was. ME is closer to Star Wars.
Absolutely not. Star Wars is space fantasy, Star Trek is old-school space communism. If anything, ME is closer to Babylon 5 in overall themes and space civilization structure.
 

Deleted member 28561

Guest
It's going to be trash because the writers are cunts. The best story is from the first game, bring back Drew Karpyshyn and make girls with round booty like Miranda.
When looking back on the Mass Effect series and examine the changes it went through with each iteration there are many things that become more clear. What was more serious and leaning towards hard science fiction in the first game gradually became something else. One of these changes were in terms of sexuality. The first game was not heavily sexual or erotic or suggestive. There was the pastel colored space babes that almost seem mandatory in science fiction adventures ever since Star Wars popularized them, but the space costumes were modest and sensible. The esthetics which so heavily borrowed from both Star Wars and Syd Mead did so in a conservative way which you would expect from a more dry science fiction book and that goes not just for the characters but the environments and everything else. You did not worry about ammunition but about overheating, because this is the future.

The second game was a threshold being passed, a transitory period, things grew more grimdark and leaned heavier against Star Wars with a facsimile of Nar Shaddaa being your opening hub. You had less sensible designs of characters, Miranda and her big space booty was not even that bad when compared to Jack and her simple facemask to protect her against not just cosmic radiation but also the vacuum of space. Ammo made a return because of game mechanics, but it never made any sense in terms of lore, you had no reason to find ammo in many of the places you went. Even then a lot of good parts of the previous game remained and many appreciated how much sleeker and sexier it was, you had a very diverse cast of characters that despite the consistent daddy issues were more colorful than ever. Legion was more interesting than any character from the first game, because he was more alien than the actual aliens.

What old Hermes wanted to get to was that the third game is because it actually went all in on that last part of your post. The ship AI that was a simple hologram you spoke to last game is now in an android body, Bioware the thirsty nerds, gave your ship's AI a booty. That undercurrent of change and the shift that took place is why people don't like the third game's story that much however. The grounded and very traditional science fiction tone of the first game was lost and after that core went away things had to turn silly. From a mystery plot deeply connected to the lore of the gameworld to a melodramatic cartoon that do not pay so much attention to the world but only the characters and the emotional parts of the story. The reapers arrive at Earth because it gives the player motivation, not because it makes sense in the story, and it ends on Earth for the same reason. But the previously conservative Ashley is now wearing a miniskirt space uniform, so most gamers do not complain until they come to the end and instead of shooting the big bad reaper boss in the face and is the savior of the galaxy get the Deus Ex buttons ending.

So the conclusion is that you can either have a story like in the first game or you can have the later part of your wishlist, but old Hermes do not think that you can have both at once, not entirely.

FuI6eOW.jpg
 

Deleted member 28561

Guest
Probably too long for his own good. Poor guy have lost good taste.

Really, in a Mass Effect thread? Nobody posting here has any ground to claim to have "good taste".

It really comes down to what kind of shlock you like; for people who liked ME1, and thought ME2 was hot garbage, they made MEA.

For people who liked ME2, they made DAI.
They did not make MEA for people who liked ME1, they tried to appeal to those people, but it did not work and they ended up with something that pleased very few. It was not as intelligent as the first game, but it was not like the third game either. On all fronts MEA was neutered, it did not make for a good standalone story, the characters were bland, in effort to tone down the pressure and world ending plots they made the plot irrelevant instead, they mostly had the old alien species back so you don't get to explore new worlds but you also do not get to know what happened to those species back home because you are colonists. The characters especially were bad because they didn't have to strong world-attachment as in the first game, where they had to represent and teach you about the world, but they had none of the color or flavor of the ones from Mass Effect 2, just boring. Even the player character is bored and mostly passive, almost being a blank slate. They should at least have let you play as an alien in this game since it barely matters to the story.
 

Tytus

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I'll go against the grain and say that the story, although perhaps not the writing, of the first ME is more generic and uninspired than ME2. The collectors were a better group antagonist than the geth, and the companions were also generally an upgrade over the cast of 1, with the exception of Wrex. 2 is also where best boi Garrus and Tali really came into their characters as well.

Problem wth ME2 companions is that most of them were turned into a Star Trek family episode. Help me with my son, Help me with my Dad, Help me with my Daughter, Help me with my Sister, Help me with my dead Dad. Etc.
Also retcons destroyed some of the cool aspects of the ME1 characters and races. Like the Krogan who were totally dumbed down in ME2.


I am not, let me quote myself:

If you want to praise Andromeda for enemy variety you have to praise ME3 as well which had even more enemy variety. All the enemies from Andromeda (with the exception of something like Architect which is just and DAI Dragon Fight) was in ME3 already. The giant brutish monster - it's the Reaper Brute from ME3. The invisible Kett, that is the invisible Cerberus Operative and Geth Hunter/Assassin, The robot that constructs smaller droids and throws them at you, that's the reaparized Rachni. The big walking Mech that's an Atlas. etc. etc.
In terms of enemies Andromeda did not do anything new. But I did like the larger variety of guns and armors.



No matter how you try to twist and turn it, MEA has combat strategy.

You won't go far in the game just by smashing the awesome button. MEA combat is competently made.

And yet it feels really hollow. MEA combat is very floaty. The guns doesn't have this punch, shooting enemies feels like using a pellet gun (especially at the start). ME3 combat was more static but also felt much better. The melee attacks are a joke. There isn't really indication you are hitting something like ME3 had. And there too many bullet sponge enemies. (Admittedly ME3 was starting to have this problem too)
Also because of the balancing issues some of the guns in Andromeda are really useless especially when you craft like two very good guns to switch over.

Not to mention combat profiles break the lore, but that's an entirely different subject.



This is the codex, unsubstantiated claims are the norm. Story quality is also naturally subjective. Although I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a BioWare game story worse than Andromeda's 30-hour snoozefest. It's really Andromeda's lackluster companions that set it apart. Basically any BioWare game with companions had better companions.

Companions are one thing but the villain is really one of the worst Bioware produced (supposedly Anthem's one worse but never played that one). And it's not like ME had great villains to begin with. Some of them were at least enjoyable (Illusive Man for example). ME as a whole had pretty bland villains. The one in Andromeda is just a Saturday morning cartoon bad guy.
There is nothing really in Andromeda to hang on to in terms of story.


The reapers arrive at Earth because it gives the player motivation, not because it makes sense in the story, and it ends on Earth for the same reason.

It made in the previous version of the main story. In the one they ended up with it's just a mess.
In the original ending Reapers had an actual motivation to do what where they are doing and traces of it are left in the game (since they changed the ending so late).



You don't have to go far, DAI and Anthem are both easily worse than MEA.

Anthem? Maybe.
DAI? No.
While it had shit combat, the characters, the story and variety in missions were much better.
It still had shit quests to extend the playthrough. To be honest Andromeda and Inquisition share most of the dame problems when it comes to quest design, wokeness, retconing the lore etc.
But where DAI wins some points back with the story and characters Andromeda just falls flat on its face.
Hell even the C&C while shallow was still better handled in DAI.


The Old Republic is an MMO

And yet the Single Player quests were much better than anything Andromeda was able to present us with.



But worse than that, TOR was created instead of a much more
rating_prestigious.png
single-player KotOR3.


That's not an argument against TOR.
Same thing can be said for Andromeda.
"But worse than that, Andromeda was created instead ME4".

Bioware took a pool if people want a prequel or what. People wanted a sequel and instead they got Andromeda.



MEA went back to ME1 design, look and feel, which is why I like MEA. That was a stated design goal, and they succeeded at that.

It did? By what measure?
You mean the Nomad? Which are actually just ME2 driving sections expanded upon? You still drive in basically hand crafted corridors but now the enemies respawn!
Oh maybe you mean the crafting which ME1 didn't really have?
The outpost building ME1 never had?
The power point system ME1 never had?
Profile mechanic ME1 never had?

No. Andromeda isn't going back to ME1 design you were duped by the PR. Andromeda shared DAI's design which is painfully visible while playing.


It was no masterpiece, obviously, but it got an overwhelming amount of hate that it didn't really deserve because of some bugs and weird animations (that are mostly fixed now).


Have you played the game? My problem with it wasn't that some faces looked silly. It was the Nexus was basically a dead place with no interesting background conversations.
It was the amount of shit fetch quests thrown at you.
It were the retarded characters.
Dumb as a brick villain.
The tone that felt like it was a superhero movie written by Joss Whedon.
The wokeness .
The brain dead fanservice - Zaeed's son. Saren' student. Conrad Verner's cousin. Garrus' Father. Liara etc. etc.
The art direction.
Nonsensical C&C - like in Jaal's loyality mission.
And many more things.
We must have either played a different game or you are will play anything and think it's good if you can turn off your brain for a couple of hours.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
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Messages
6,078
some faces looked silly.

The best indicator of MEA's messy development was that at launch, 90% of all Asari had the same face, including more important NPCs, and they thought this was perfectly fine.

Lol.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
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Messages
6,078
some faces looked silly.

The best indicator of MEA's messy development was that at launch, 90% of all Asari had the same face, including more important NPCs, and they thought this was perfectly fine.

Lol.

Pure lies!

There were two Asari faces.
The one for Peebee and the one for every other Asari :P

I tried to scrub my memory of MEA, but didn't they try to base one of the Asari faces off natalie dormer?

Oh god, where did they fail so hard?

Natalie-Dormer.jpg


1000
 

Tytus

Arcane
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Mazovia
FFS. Let this series die. Stop resuscitating a dead corpse!

EA won't let it die. If it fails completely it will be paraded as an undead IP like Dungeon Keeper for example.

There were only two Mass Effect games made, the first one and and the second one named Andromeda. How can there be a fifth?

Oh yes. That's true and they are named.

Mass Effect Galaxy is a game for iOS, released on June 22, 2009. The story focuses on backstory of one of the companion characters from Mass Effect 2. BioWare stated that the game would contain two hours of gameplay and would have "top down shooter action". BioWare also stated that the game, like the novels, would not be "required reading" for Mass Effect 2, meaning that players would still be able to enjoy Mass Effect 2 having only played Mass Effect.[1][2]

AND

Mass Effect Infiltrator is a third-person shooter video game developed by IronMonkey Studios,[1] released on March 6, 2012 for iOS, May 22, 2012 for Android,[2] and June 13, 2013 for BlackBerry 10.[3]

Clearly the only two Mass Effect ever produced.

ME: Andromeda, however structrurally Andromeda is more predisposed towards the dismantling of perceived-patriarchy.

And yet there are still such stupid moments like taking homosexuals/transsexuals on this trip. Where the goal is to build colonies and populate them. Every human family needs to have at least 3 children so the civilization can grow, but hey let's take people that will make this harder.
 

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