Interview Matt Chat 167: Josh Sawyer on Project Eternity

[Cynic]

time is meaningless in CRPGs.

THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO FIX THIS SHIT without losing the inherit benefits of a Vancian system it's mind boggling to see anyone defending its loss. Especially here.

Here's a few I am thinking of in like 5 seconds...

1. Time limited quests where success / failure effects the game world and or party's reputation (added bonus game is more REPLAYABLE)

 

[Jaesun]

Can I assume you have never played a PnP session Cynic?

 

[Cynic]

Can I assume you have never played a PnP session Cynic?

You cannot assume this. I started playing D&D when I was like 6. Quit around the age of 16, couldn't take it seriously anymore, but the memories live on.

 

[Jaesun]

Can I assume you have never played a PnP session Cynic?

You cannot assume this. I started playing D&D when I was like 6. Quit around the age of 16, couldn't take it seriously anymore, but the memories live on.

That is a bit of a different perspective though. Not the experience of a GOOD PnP session.

 

[Cynic]

We had great sessions bro. Some very epic characters and adventures. Had so much fun and good times. Isn't the definition of a GOOD session entirely relative? I personally feel like that is the best age to do these kinds of things, your imagination and eagerness to just vividly picture things is so open.

I have always thought of maybe one day trying to play a campaign now. Many drugs would be necessary. Actually this sounds like a plan...

 

[Jaesun]

We had great sessions bro. Some very epic characters and adventures. Had so much fun and good times. Isn't the definition of a GOOD session entirely relative? I personally feel like that is the best age to do these kinds of things, your imagination and eagerness to just vividly picture things is so open.

I have always thought of maybe one day trying to play a campaign now. Many drugs would be necessary. Actually this sounds like a plan...

At 16 would you really approach the game the same way as you would do now?

 

[Excidium]

time is meaningless in CRPGs.

THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO FIX THIS SHIT without losing the inherit benefits of a Vancian system it's mind boggling to see anyone defending its loss. Especially here.

Here's a few I am thinking of in like 5 seconds...

1. Time limited quests where success / failure effects the game world and or party's reputation (added bonus game is more REPLAYABLE)

Time limits fall into "arbitrary shit".

 

[trais]

We had great sessions bro. Some very epic characters and adventures. Had so much fun and good times. Isn't the definition of a GOOD session entirely relative? I personally feel like that is the best age to do these kinds of things, your imagination and eagerness to just vividly picture things is so open.

I have always thought of maybe one day trying to play a campaign now. Many drugs would be necessary. Actually this sounds like a plan...

At 16 would you really approach the game the same way as you would do now?

PnP is SERIOUS BUSINESS, you need to be at least 50 years old, twice divorced and had killed a man with your bare hands to fully appreciate Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Cynic]

We had great sessions bro. Some very epic characters and adventures. Had so much fun and good times. Isn't the definition of a GOOD session entirely relative? I personally feel like that is the best age to do these kinds of things, your imagination and eagerness to just vividly picture things is so open.

I have always thought of maybe one day trying to play a campaign now. Many drugs would be necessary. Actually this sounds like a plan...

At 16 would you really approach the game the same way as you would do now?

I most likely couldn't hold myself together for a PnP game now man. Can't take that shit seriously no more. Unless we were stoned out of our minds maybe.

That being said we were pretty fucking into it all the way up to the age of 16 and the campaigns were always very fun and well thought out. Fully custom dungeons and self written quests etc., hardly ever played pre made modules beyond the basic starter set stuff but we preferred to make our own shit. I moved on to Magic the Gathering afterwards and eventually got busted big time for running a racket in card sales in my school. Made some cash but got an ass whooping from my folks when they found out. Good times.

 

[Condiments]

The "tier" spell system he was talking about sounds like it could be decent if its implemented well. However, it does sound like they're balancing their cooldowns on a per battle basis, which usually turns into a spell spam fest unless there are other mitigating factors. I'm not sure going full vancian rest system is the right answer either, because it usually devolves into rest spam or strict spell conservation so your mages can blow their loads on harder encounters. Developers would also have to consider designing encounters around the spells they'll likely still have, which may lead to less dynamic encounters if spells end up being a limiting factor.

The tier cooldown system could work I think, if instead of locking spells into specific tier usage, higher tier spells will lock you out of lower tier spells depending on their usage. Use a couple tier 5 class spells and you're shut out of your higher tier spells for a time, having to rely on your less powerful lower tiers. That way the player can user those higher power spells in a short burst but be drastically less useful for the rest of the fight. Locking them in tiers ensures you'll just rotate through your tiers until they lock out.

 

[Cynic]

Time limits fall into "arbitrary shit".

How is it arbitrary when you've got a village to defend that is under imminent threat from Gnolls who are amassing in the area. The quest giver tells you that you need to go and sort them out within the week or they would be too many in number and would overrun the town.

You save the town, get EXP, gold, and maybe a trinket and some rep. Later in the game a merchant who sells some rare shit appears there.

You lose the town it is now overrun with Gnolls. You can choose to go in and wipe them out, getting some EXP and gold but no reputation as everyone of note is already dead. You also never get the merchant to appear.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Hi, Condiments.

What are your favorite condiments? I happen to love mustard though that is perhaps a bit pedestrian to say so. I do also really love Sriracha and Cholula hot sauces.

 

[Excidium]

How is it arbitrary when you've got a village to defend that is under imminent threat from Gnolls who are amassing in the area. The quest giver tells you that you need to go and sort them out within the week or they would be too many in number and would overrun the town.

You save the town, get EXP, gold, and maybe a trinket and some rep. Later in the game a merchant who sells some rare shit appears there.

You lose the town it is now overrun with Gnolls. You can choose to go in and wipe them out, getting some EXP and gold but no reputation as everyone of note is already dead. You also never get the merchant to appear.

Having a hanging time limit before the village is overrun is just poor design. Shit doesn't work like that, gnolls aren't time bombs.

 

[Excidium]

We had great sessions bro. Some very epic characters and adventures. Had so much fun and good times. Isn't the definition of a GOOD session entirely relative? I personally feel like that is the best age to do these kinds of things, your imagination and eagerness to just vividly picture things is so open.

I have always thought of maybe one day trying to play a campaign now. Many drugs would be necessary. Actually this sounds like a plan...

At 16 would you really approach the game the same way as you would do now?

PnP is SERIOUS BUSINESS, you need to be at least 50 years old, twice divorced and had killed a man with your bare hands to fully appreciate Dungeons and Dragons.

Don't be retarded, your approach to things change as you get older, and RPGs are no exception.

Teenagers are usually more concerned about being edgy half-drows dual wielding katanas than playing a good campaign

 

[Cynic]

How is it arbitrary when you've got a village to defend that is under imminent threat from Gnolls who are amassing in the area. The quest giver tells you that you need to go and sort them out within the week or they would be too many in number and would overrun the town.

You save the town, get EXP, gold, and maybe a trinket and some rep. Later in the game a merchant who sells some rare shit appears there.

You lose the town it is now overrun with Gnolls. You can choose to go in and wipe them out, getting some EXP and gold but no reputation as everyone of note is already dead. You also never get the merchant to appear.

Having a hanging time limit before the village is overrun is just poor design. Shit doesn't work like that, gnolls aren't time bombs.

The implication is of course that the Gnolls are waiting for their numbers to increase in order to take the town easily, they've also been ordered to wait until their Ogre Mage commander returns as he wants to be present for the raid himself. He wants that "trinket" which he knows is in the town's vault.

 

[Cynic]

Also there were no fucking half drow dual wielding shits in our campaigns. We also mainly played Greyhawk. Fuck Forgotten Realms.

 

[Shannow]

Having a hanging time limit before the village is overrun is just poor design. Shit doesn't work like that, gnolls aren't time bombs.

You're being stupid. Stop it. You're usually not stupid.

In case of approaching Doom quests the quest-givers could simply ask you to deal with it ASAP (eg. because the amassing gnolls not only threaten the village but also impede trade and kill unlucky travellers, etc.). The longer it takes you, the lower the reward you get, while the quest itself gets more difficult because the encroaching Doom amasses more forces and fortifies it's position.
Another example would be a burning house. You're asked to put out the fire. Either use ice/water spells or call fire fighters. Does it make sense to come back after doing 20 fedex quests, 2 main quest episodes and resting 8 times, so perhaps 3 in-game weeks and casting a hail storm? No, of course not. Yet you, Excidium and Jaesun call time limits arbitrary...


Edit: Weren't you guys some of the people who bitched about the Oblivion Gates never posing a threat and just sitting there until the player got around to dealing with them?

 

[trais]

We had great sessions bro. Some very epic characters and adventures. Had so much fun and good times. Isn't the definition of a GOOD session entirely relative? I personally feel like that is the best age to do these kinds of things, your imagination and eagerness to just vividly picture things is so open.

I have always thought of maybe one day trying to play a campaign now. Many drugs would be necessary. Actually this sounds like a plan...

At 16 would you really approach the game the same way as you would do now?

PnP is SERIOUS BUSINESS, you need to be at least 50 years old, twice divorced and had killed a man with your bare hands to fully appreciate Dungeons and Dragons.

Don't be retarded, your approach to things change as you get older, and RPGs are no exception.

Teenagers are usually more concerned about being edgy half-drows dual wielding katanas than playing a good campaign

OMFG, do you guys seriously believe that you need to be a fully grown man to appreciate a DnD campaign? Seriously?!
I don't know, maybe you guys were sad enough to want to roleplay edgy half-drows when you were 16 - if that's true then you have my pity.

Or maybe you guys are thinking about http://dresdencodak.com/2006/12/03/dungeons-and-discourse/ ?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Swapping spell-books sounds like arbitrary shit to me.

 

[Excidium]

Having a hanging time limit before the village is overrun is just poor design. Shit doesn't work like that, gnolls aren't time bombs.

You're being stupid. Stop it. You're usually not stupid.

In case of approaching Doom quests the quest-givers could simply ask you to deal with it ASAP (eg. because the amassing gnolls not only threaten the village but also impede trade and kill unlucky travellers, etc.). The longer it takes you, the lower the reward you get, while the quest itself gets more difficult because the encroaching Doom amasses more forces and fortifies it's position.
Another example would be a burning house. You're asked to put out the fire. Either use ice/water spells or call fire fighters. Does it make sense to come back after doing 20 fedex quests, 2 main quest episodes and resting 8 times, so perhaps 3 in-game weeks and casting a hail storm? No, of course not. Yet you, Excidium and Jaesun call time limits arbitrary...


Edit: Weren't you guys some of the people who bitched about the Oblivion Gates never posing a threat and just sitting there until the player got around to dealing with them?

You are missing my point mang. Time in RPGs is essentially abstracted, and that's why I'm against that sort of ticking clock in CRPGs.

 

[Menckenstein]

Not gonna lie, this video put my FAITH IN PROJECT ETERNITY METER into the positive side.

 

[J_C]

Having a hanging time limit before the village is overrun is just poor design. Shit doesn't work like that, gnolls aren't time bombs.

You're being stupid. Stop it. You're usually not stupid.

In case of approaching Doom quests the quest-givers could simply ask you to deal with it ASAP (eg. because the amassing gnolls not only threaten the village but also impede trade and kill unlucky travellers, etc.). The longer it takes you, the lower the reward you get, while the quest itself gets more difficult because the encroaching Doom amasses more forces and fortifies it's position.
Another example would be a burning house. You're asked to put out the fire. Either use ice/water spells or call fire fighters. Does it make sense to come back after doing 20 fedex quests, 2 main quest episodes and resting 8 times, so perhaps 3 in-game weeks and casting a hail storm? No, of course not. Yet you, Excidium and Jaesun call time limits arbitrary...


Edit: Weren't you guys some of the people who bitched about the Oblivion Gates never posing a threat and just sitting there until the player got around to dealing with them?

Having a time limit makes sense from a story perspective, but I heard a lot of times that gamers and designers don't like it. That's why they took out the time limit from Fallout with an official patch for example.

 

[Cynic]

You are missing my point mang. Time in RPGs is essentially abstracted, and that's why I'm against that sort of ticking clock in CRPGs.

For an RPG that you play on a PC, it's very easy to set up a system where you are given rough reminders or notifications via some in game, non lore breaking system to hurry up and get on with a quest.

I thought ToEE started in the right direction (there were a couple of quests like this) but it was really hard to keep track of mainly because the dialog, quests and characters were so banal that you didn't really give a shit if the kid died from sickness. Also the way to find the thing needed to cure her was pretty fucking random which was a bit annoying (if I remember correctly). I'd be all for a slightly more user friendly way of doing it, perhaps you get a visit from a messenger, reminding you about the quest each time a significant time point has been passed. Whatever, but saying that timed quests are "arbitrary" is just nonsense.

 

[Cynic]

Having a hanging time limit before the village is overrun is just poor design. Shit doesn't work like that, gnolls aren't time bombs.

You're being stupid. Stop it. You're usually not stupid.

In case of approaching Doom quests the quest-givers could simply ask you to deal with it ASAP (eg. because the amassing gnolls not only threaten the village but also impede trade and kill unlucky travellers, etc.). The longer it takes you, the lower the reward you get, while the quest itself gets more difficult because the encroaching Doom amasses more forces and fortifies it's position.
Another example would be a burning house. You're asked to put out the fire. Either use ice/water spells or call fire fighters. Does it make sense to come back after doing 20 fedex quests, 2 main quest episodes and resting 8 times, so perhaps 3 in-game weeks and casting a hail storm? No, of course not. Yet you, Excidium and Jaesun call time limits arbitrary...


Edit: Weren't you guys some of the people who bitched about the Oblivion Gates never posing a threat and just sitting there until the player got around to dealing with them?

Having a time limit makes sense from a story perspective, but I heard a lot of times that gamers and designers don't like it. That's why they took out the time limit from Fallout with an official patch for example.

I think something like it's GAME OVER if you fail a quest like this is not good. But for optional non essential quests it SHOULD be implemented. Fuck how good would it be if it was simply impossible to do all of the quests in one play through, then the next time you play, you do the others. There could even be moral dilemmas in these choices. The possibilities are huge.

edit: I don't think it's so bad to have a game over if you fail a specific time related quest but I get that this is probably a big barrier to a lot of casuals so it probably has to go. Also for stoners who space on shit like that...

 

[Excidium]

Reinforcing urgency and punishing the player for wasting time or getting sidetracked is good but time limits are fucking bad.

The flow of time falls upon the GM's good senses in pnp, but there's no such thing in CRPGs. Good luck finding a good substitute. Best way in my opinion is using triggers, but even then...Guess that's why devs don't bother with time and let the Rising Evil wait patiently for the Heroes to finish helping every person with a problem they meet on the road.