Interview Matt Chat 167: Josh Sawyer on Project Eternity

[Jaesun]

Maybe I was thinking of another video, hehe. He did explain somewhere that they were designing something like what I described. Sawyer does not like full 'vancian' because he thinks characters should have some value at all times. I am not saying that he wants to make wizards kick ass 24/7, but they will be able to do more than throw pebbles most of the time.

It's even more stupid, because if you're gonna lock people's best toys (ie. highest level spells) behind resting mechanic, then people are gonna be tempted to rest after every combat anyways

You know the exact specifics of the resting system of PE? Holy shit. Can you tell them to us?

 

[trais]

Well, I don't have specifics because I doubt even Obsidian know what are they want to do, but there are 3 options regarding resting:
- NWN2 style (spammable)
- DA:O style (pointless)
- BG(2) style (exploitable)

I know for a fact that they will not make any sane resting system, because that would solve the biggest problem people had with BG2 spellcasting, and Sawyer's is going to "fix" that with clever cooldowns instead. So my bet is that they are gonna go one step further and combine all 3 of them and make PE resting both spammable, pointless and exploitable.

 

[Jaesun]

Well, I don't have specifics because I doubt even Obsidian know what are they want to do, but there are 3 options regarding resting:
- NWN2 style (spammable)
- DA:O style (pointless)
- BG(2) style (exploitable)

I know for a fact that they will not make any sane resting system, because that would solve the biggest problem people had with BG2 spellcasting, and Sawyer's is going to "fix" that with clever cooldowns instead. So my bet is that they are gonna go one step further and combine all 3 of them and make PE resting both spammable, pointless and exploitable.

So.... you DON'T know and are guessing. OK. Yeah. That's what we are all doing too.

Kind of like my concerns in WL2. As in we don't know shit. Other than TRUST US!

 

[trais]

Well, if the new guy he here is to believed, Sawyer were telling different things in different videos, so it's hard to get definite knowledge regardless.
And what I'm doing is not guesswork, it's deduction.
What purpose did the resting have in IE games? To re-memorize spells and to heal a bit. In PE, you will regain spell naturally over time, so what purpose resting could have? There aren't many options, so I'm sure you can use our own reason to answer that.

And "Fargo did it too!" is not a valid defense by any means.
But to be completely honest, Obsidian is one of the last developers I would trust to come up with good combat system. While their track records isn't particularly long (KotOR2 uses Bioware's system, NWN2 uses DnD, F3:NV uses Bethesda's), the things I saw Alpha Protocol, in their first original game, aren't really helping. I mean come on, it was 3rd Person Shooter with 4 weapon skills, and they still managed to fuck it up completely balance-wise - eg. Pistol's Chain Shot was grossly overpowered and logic-wise - eg. Submachine Gun's Bullet Storm gave you infinite amount of magazine capacity for a short time. So maybe compared to the rest of Obs. designers Sawyer is looking like some kind of genius, but I'm not really getting that vibe when I listen to him talking.

 

[DwarvenFood]

J_C goddamn get a haircut. This is not 1986 and you are not in a hair band.

Graphicswhore detected.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, if the new guy he here is to believed, Sawyer were telling different things in different videos, so it's hard to get definite knowledge regardless.
And what I'm doing is not guesswork, it's deduction.
What purpose did the resting have in IE games? To re-memorize spells and to heal a bit. In PE, you will regain spell naturally over time, so what purpose resting could have? There aren't many options, so I'm sure you can use our own reason to answer that.

Perhaps this will clear up your confusion: http://i.imgur.com/o4NHz.png

Notice - PER-REST RESOURCES.

But to be completely honest, Obsidian is one of the last developers I would trust to come up with good combat system. While their track records isn't particularly long (KotOR2 uses Bioware's system, NWN2 uses DnD, F3:NV uses Bethesda's), the things I saw Alpha Protocol, in their first original game, aren't really helping. I mean come on, it was 3rd Person Shooter with 4 weapon skills, and they still managed to fuck it up completely balance-wise - eg. Pistol's Chain Shot was grossly overpowered and logic-wise - eg. Submachine Gun's Bullet Storm gave you infinite amount of magazine capacity for a short time. So maybe compared to the rest of Obs. designers Sawyer is looking like some kind of genius, but I'm not really getting that vibe when I listen to him talking.

Josh Sawyer did very little work on Alpha Protocol.

 

[trais]

Ah, so it seems that the Matt Chat version is the old shit.
Well, going vancian for higher, cooldowns for lower level spells are definitely an , no question about it.
Now all he needs to do is go one step further and make low level spells vancian as well, ditch that stupid spellbook swapping idea and he'll get pretty decent casting system.

 

[Infinitron]

Ah, so it seems that the Matt Chat version is the old shit.
Well, going vancian for higher, cooldowns for lower level spells are definitely an , no question about it.
Now all he needs to do is go one step further and make low level spells vancian as well, ditch that stupid spellbook swapping idea and he'll get pretty decent casting system.

Yeah, probably not gonna happen.

But it should be easy to mod. You would just lower the per-cooldown/per-rest level threshold to 0.

 

[suejak]

I can't think of a single CRPG that implemented the Vancian system well. Nor have I seen one mentioned in debates on this topic. Why is that?

 

[FeelTheRads]

You also couldn't think about any RPG that had good TB combat. I figure the reason is you just can't think.

 

[suejak]

At least somebody tried on that one, and I'm willing to concede that some people think TOEE has good combat and that JA2 is a CRPG with a system that'd work for fantasy.

 

[thesheeep]

Maybe I repeat myself, but vancian magic system doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense for everyday casting.
"I can't cast another one of those spells today, because... I.. uhm.. suddenly forgot the magic formula and need a whole night to memorize again*. Yeah, I don't need to sleep. Also, I can cast that incredibly wordy spell in a matter of seconds, and then I will forget it again. Yeah, crazy, I know, but that how it works. God, I so wish I was a Sorcerer or Warlock. Those dudes rock!"

*or prepare the ritual or whatever. People need to sleep. Point is, that shit would be fine for ritual magic (have a look at Shadowrun ritual magic, that one is kind of vancian AND makes sense) or very, very powerful spells, but that is not what it is used for in 99% of all cases.

It is a purely artificial balancing tool, just as cooldowns are. But cooldowns usually don't try to fool you into thinking they make any sense.

 

[kaizoku]

Regarding magic,

For those who missed it, I recommend this thread http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/f-cking-magic-how-can-it-work.76226/unread
If you don't want to bother, at least read this one http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1431.0.html

 

[suejak]

Regarding magic,

For those who missed it, I recommend this thread http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/f-cking-magic-how-can-it-work.76226/unread
If you don't want to bother, at least read this one http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1431.0.html

Great links.

But the Vancian system isn't a good fit for this faster pace, wizards get only a handful of spells per day to work with. While a warrior can keep pushing through combat encounters until they take too much damage, a wizard needs to be frugal with his cache of memorized spells. The lower levels of play are especially tedious for mage players. Either you have to rely on a party to support your fragile character until he reaches respectable levels of power or you have to sleep between each and every encounter. Which either results in further tedium in the form of trips back to town, or adding the ability to sleep whenever and wherever the player wants to the game, completely breaking the balance.

To counter this CPRGs started to move from the Vancian system to one based around mana, usually with some form of regeneration involved (even if that regeneration takes the form of constantly drinking mana potions). Now mages aren't such a drag to play, they can contribute to each fight on an equal level with the other character archetypes and need far less downtime. The action can continue unabated!

I thought as much. I guess, like me, others just can't think.

 

[FeelTheRads]

But cooldowns usually don't try to fool you into thinking they make any sense.

Neither does the Vancian system. Only retards interpret it as forgetting spells and then re-learning them, anyway, but no, it's not supposed to make any sense. It's just a mechanic.

 

[LibertyRansom]

I can't think of a single CRPG that implemented the Vancian system well. Nor have I seen one mentioned in debates on this topic. Why is that?

TOEE did the Vancian system just fine. Usually you could not sleep in the temple without being attacked. Occasionally you would find a safe place to rest or you would have to risk it.

I think the Vancian system is a great in theory and can be amazing in practice as well. It makes players conserve their mage's powers and not just spam spells in a patterned succession. Further, it makes the player's plan ahead by memorizing the spells before the encounter, making it a gamble of what spells to take. This adds excitement and challenge to the spell selection. Do you take spells that allow flexibility for a variety of situations or spells with specific purposes? Do you go for raw Area of effect spells or single shot high damage spells? When you do get to that encounter if you didn't plan right it makes things exciting and fun, trying to make your spell selection work for the encounter or problem.

Further it allows diversity when creating spells. Spells can be the same level but one can allow flexability as the cost of raw power. For example: Spell Y can have more flexibility, as in, it allows you to summon a minor elemental (fire, water or earth) of your choice on the spot, whereas spell B allows you only to summon a major water elemental. Both spells are the same level. Which do you take? Once again it allows more choice and decision making = fun.

There is no choice when everything is available to you. Even with cool downs you just simply spam your best pattern.

 

[FeelTheRads]

This adds excitement and challenge to the spell selection. Do you take spells that allow flexibility for a variety of situations or spells with specific purposes?

But bro, Obsidian doesn't want to punish the poor players? What if they don't have the right spells?! Not that it would matter anyway, considering Tim Cain, under the guise of choices, was saying that they want to make every encounter winnable with whatever you have (ie. No enemies requiring specific damage types).

Just like IE games, except not at all.

 

[trais]

Ah, so it seems that the Matt Chat version is the old shit.
Well, going vancian for higher, cooldowns for lower level spells are definitely an , no question about it.
Now all he needs to do is go one step further and make low level spells vancian as well, ditch that stupid spellbook swapping idea and he'll get pretty decent casting system.

Yeah, probably not gonna happen.

You're most likely right, but on the other hand I wouldn't be too surprised if this dual system got shot down in testing. It looks like a real bitch to balance.
Imagine some big ass, 30 room dungeon. You go there with your wizard having his precious 4 per-rest fireballs memorized. So you struggle, trying to keep them for the really tough fights. But let's say in room 8, your wizard get's a level-up and now fireball in cooldown area. Yay, free fireballs in every encounter from now on. But it would kinda destroy the challenge, wouldn't it?

Devil's in the detail tho', maybe this can be made to work. But I'm sure as fuck it won't be easy.

 

[Dorateen]

I
Realms of Arkania had the best system IMO, Astral Energy. It is not just mana renamed, for in the series your astral points recovered very, very slowly. Also, there was no potion chugging because there were no potions. There were just a bare few potions but those had to be treasured and preserved for those desperate times when they were truly needed, and even then they only restored a bare minimum of astral points.

There were also herbs that could be gathered (Tarnelm, if I recall correctly) that when consumed before resting, restored a great deal of astral points.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Every magic system known to man sucks dick unless you use reagents.

 

[Roguey]

TOEE did the Vancian system just fine. Usually you could not sleep in the temple without being attacked. Occasionally you would find a safe place to rest or you would have to risk it.

My idea was to just leave the temple and go back to my house each and every time I wanted to rest. It was boring and not fine at all.

But bro, Obsidian doesn't want to punish the poor players? What if they don't have the right spells?! Not that it would matter anyway, considering Tim Cain, under the guise of choices, was saying that they want to make every encounter winnable with whatever you have (ie. No enemies requiring specific damage types).

Just like IE games, except not at all.

Rock/paper/scissors is shit and shouldn't be replicated. "With this set of spells I have an easier time, with this set of spells I have a challenge" works fine. You're also forgetting the tomes.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

I can't think of a single CRPG that implemented the Vancian system well. Nor have I seen one mentioned in debates on this topic. Why is that?

TOEE did the Vancian system just fine. Usually you could not sleep in the temple without being attacked. Occasionally you would find a safe place to rest or you would have to risk it.

I think the Vancian system is a great in theory and can be amazing in practice as well. It makes players conserve their mage's powers and not just spam spells in a patterned succession. Further, it makes the player's plan ahead by memorizing the spells before the encounter, making it a gamble of what spells to take. This adds excitement and challenge to the spell selection. Do you take spells that allow flexibility for a variety of situations or spells with specific purposes? Do you go for raw Area of effect spells or single shot high damage spells? When you do get to that encounter if you didn't plan right it makes things exciting and fun, trying to make your spell selection work for the encounter or problem.

Further it allows diversity when creating spells. Spells can be the same level but one can allow flexability as the cost of raw power. For example: Spell Y can have more flexibility, as in, it allows you to summon a minor elemental (fire, water or earth) of your choice on the spot, whereas spell B allows you only to summon a major water elemental. Both spells are the same level. Which do you take? Once again it allows more choice and decision making = fun.

There is no choice when everything is available to you. Even with cool downs you just simply spam your best pattern.

I fully agree. I think a Vancian system is great IF you somehow limit how often and where the player can rest. I wish Obsidian would just go for a Vancian system and put their effort into developing a good resting system that provides a challenge and prevents ridiculous IE-style rest spamming.

What I liked about Mask of the Betrayer was that in theory, the spirit meter prevented rest-inflation, since your hunger would go up when resting. In practice it only mattered somewhat when you played an evil char, since good chars could easily control their hunger. But still, something akin to that would be nice. Or a global time limit like in Fallout that makes you think twice before resting after every encounter.

 

[Charles-cgr]

They should have a run at Frayed Knights for the casting system. Drama stars, while that name for that mechanic could have been more imaged, and fatigue that caps "mana" were brilliant ideas.

 

[Cynic]

TOEE did the Vancian system just fine. Usually you could not sleep in the temple without being attacked. Occasionally you would find a safe place to rest or you would have to risk it.

My idea was to just leave the temple and go back to my house each and every time I wanted to rest. It was boring and not fine at all.

The retardation in this argument is of epic proportions. You can make the same argument about any fucking system that ever existed. Why not just cheat? Just console your chars to max level from the start and be done with it? Why even fucking play the game?

So there are some issues with a system that has some REALLY FUCKING good benefits. Who cares! Fuck it and throw it all out the door rather than think up a creative solution to the problem. It's too complex for casuals anwyay. Casuals like MMOs, let's put MMO mechanics in our RPG, yes!

THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO FIX THIS SHIT without losing the inherit benefits of a Vancian system it's mind boggling to see anyone defending its loss. Especially here.

Here's a few I am thinking of in like 5 seconds...

1. Time limited quests where success / failure effects the game world and or party's reputation (added bonus game is more REPLAYABLE)
2. Resting at safe locations can cause some enemies to regroup in certain areas
3. Very small chance that super rare monsters appear through resting in safe areas - they have a chance to drop good loot or lots of cash
4. Finding good areas to rest in is tied to a skill check

Fuck I could go on for ages.

If you want to make the game piss poor easy for yourself you're going to find a way to do it no matter what. That's your problem. This is why you should play casual mode. But don't fuck it up for everyone else with your retarded ideas.

I know this is useless now and PE will have KODEX APPROVED KOOLDOWNS no matter what but I am enraged at many of the shitty arguments being put forward ITT and I will continue to rage against them until I get bored.

 

[Excidium]

Vancian will never work well in CRPGs because its based around preparation time and time is meaningless in CRPGs. At best the devs can implement some arbitrary shit to prevent it from being exploited.