Editorial Matt Chat: Baldur's Gate

[Serious_Business]

Can somebody pklease tell me how the FUCK Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 are great CRPGs?

I mean, for FUCKS SAKE, this is really pissing me off. It is as if Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Fallout: New Vegas etc don't exist. Those are RPGs, they have choices and consequences. The BG series is just fucking combat, and shit combat at that.

Damn C&C fag. It's like C&C is the only thing that makes a good RPG. In this regard, many of the golden classics from the 80's are shit RPGs.

... and?

 

[Jasede]

You can't knock him out with a critical hit to the head or blind him with a critical hit to the eyes, so you have to just get remove all his hitpoints to stop him. Hell, he's even resistant to the magic.

He may be resistant to magic but magic is not useless against him. Think about buffs.

And summons!

 

[Excidium]

You can't knock him out with a critical hit to the head or blind him with a critical hit to the eyes, so you have to just get remove all his hitpoints to stop him. Hell, he's even resistant to the magic.

He may be resistant to magic but magic is not useless against him. Think about buffs.

And summons!

And enchanted arrows!

 

[Johannes]

And the children!

 

[Tolknaz]

Bladder's Gate sure is an overrated RTS around these parts.

 

[ZbojLamignat]

First BG has to be one of the most overrated games in history and I think that along with Arcanum it's the most overrated game on the codex.

What's always most baffling for me though are the people that claim it's superior to BG2, a game so much better (thought still not exceptional) that it's not even funny.

 

[Notorious]

It's always the same shit, BG games are Action adventures and Romances suck (In another News that Day) and Bethesda sucks we get it, 20 comments in every News/Thread about that subject make that more than clear, why does this need to be repeated hundred of times? I mean if there was a generaly positive view on these subjects I would get that kind of response but on the Codex almost no one speaks favourably of these things.

I agree with most of what is written here, but still... it's always the same shit.

 

[Vibalist]

I just find it completely retarded that most people here throw a hissy fit because Matt thinks BG is a great game. Take it easy and slow the fuck down, at least he's a guy with (mostly) good taste in games and someone who does coverage on all the old titles most people have forgotten about. Surely you can deal with the fact that you don't agree with him on absolutely EVERYTHING, right? Apparantly not.

This place is becoming so fucking stupid these days. A cool episode about BG shows up from a guy whose opinions are mostly in line with the Codex's, and all we get is people bitching for three pages. Nice.

 

[Stabwound]

I'd like to take a break from this clusterfuck and say that this Matt guy comes across as a true bro and it's a huge shame that his 100 videos combined have less views than the average "funny" cat video. In one of his recent videos he even said that he was thinking of quitting because hardly anyone watches the interviews etc.

edit: eh, too slow, but I completely agree with Vibalist.

 

[Begriffenfeldt]

I just find it completely retarded that most people here throw a hissy fit because Matt thinks BG is a great game. Take it easy and slow the fuck down, at least he's a guy with (mostly) good taste in games and someone who does coverage on all the old titles most people have forgotten about. Surely you can deal with the fact that you don't agree with him on absolutely EVERYTHING, right? Apparantly not.

This place is becoming so fucking stupid these days. A cool episode about BG shows up from a guy whose opinions are mostly in line with the Codex's, and all we get is people bitching for three pages. Nice.

I think people are just sick of the BG dick sucking in general and are using this thread to vent. Every hack gaming journalist and bionerd out there puts BG 1 and 2 as the PINNACLE OF RPGs, but never bother to explain why.

I enjoyed BG for what it was, but I think I agree with the sentiment that the series was the start of the decline of RPGs, with its romances, rtwp combat and linear story.

Edit: And I like Matt chat too.

 

[Roguey]

"I originally rated 90%, but now replaying it 10+ years later.. I'd rate it 75-80..."

You should rerate the NWN OC so everything stays in proportion.

 

[MMXI]

I think people are just sick of the BG dick sucking in general and are using this thread to vent. Every hack gaming journalist and bionerd out there puts BG 1 and 2 as the PINNACLE OF RPGs, but never bother to explain why.

I agree. People outside this forum make out that the Baldur's Gates are flawless when they have more flaws in than most RPGs. This leads to people having shitty expectations of the genre and closes their eyes to what is possible to achieve.

I enjoyed BG for what it was, but I think I agree with the sentiment that the series was the start of the decline of RPGs, with its romances, rtwp combat and linear story.

Romance? Treasures of the Savage Frontier.
Real-time with pause combat? Darklands.
Linear story? Basically all RPGs previously.

I'm not really disagreeing with you because I think Baldur's Gate II probably is the start of the decline for reasons I've stated previously in this thread. Throw a Dragon Age/Mass Effect faggot at Baldur's Gate and they will hate it. Throw a Dragon Age/Mass Effect faggot at Baldur's Gate II and they will appreciate the characters, romances and centralisation of the plot around the protagonist. It's really that simple.

Then again, you could also mention Diablo (for being Diablo) and The Elder Scrolls (for leading to Oblivion and Fallout 3). Going back further you could mention Dungeon Master. Even further, Dungeons of Daggorath?

 

[DraQ]

BG was a bit of oblivion of it's time - BSB cookie cutter fantasy, no stat checks, no C&C, extreme linearity poorly disguised by relative freedom of movement, infantile morality and shit combat.

I think that's a pretty apt comparison, though maybe Morrowind comes closer

Well no, as about the only thing BG and MW have in common is excessively bad pathfinding, while the similarities between OB and BG are rather significant.

Can somebody pklease tell me how the FUCK Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 are great CRPGs?

I mean, for FUCKS SAKE, this is really pissing me off. It is as if Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Fallout: New Vegas etc don't exist. Those are RPGs, they have choices and consequences. The BG series is just fucking combat, and shit combat at that.

Combat alone can make for a good RPG by the old-school dungeon crawler definition. Baldur's Gate definitely scratches the "I'd like to play a Hack & Slash P&P campaign on my computer" itch to some people. They don't care about choices- unless the choice is "Should I raise STR or VIT? How many more skillpoints should I put into Kirijutsu? If I multi-class my Priest into a Lord, will he be more powerful?".

Unfortunately BG sucks some major undead ass in this area as well.

 

[MMXI]

Well no, as about the only thing BG and MW have in common is excessively bad pathfinding, while the similarities between OB and BG are rather significant.

And Daggerfall is closer to Oblivion than Baldur's Gate is to Oblivion. Is Daggerfall the Oblivion of its time?

EDIT: Ultima Underworld is closer to Oblivion than Baldur's Gate is to Oblivion.

EDIT EDIT: Akalabeth is closer to Oblivion than Baldur's Gate is to Oblivion.

 

[Twinkle]

Games were all about creating a party and fucking shit up in corridors until the end.

Except that BG doesn't even let you to create one. Of course, there are workarounds, but still.

 

[Vibalist]

I just find it completely retarded that most people here throw a hissy fit because Matt thinks BG is a great game. Take it easy and slow the fuck down, at least he's a guy with (mostly) good taste in games and someone who does coverage on all the old titles most people have forgotten about. Surely you can deal with the fact that you don't agree with him on absolutely EVERYTHING, right? Apparantly not.

This place is becoming so fucking stupid these days. A cool episode about BG shows up from a guy whose opinions are mostly in line with the Codex's, and all we get is people bitching for three pages. Nice.

I think people are just sick of the BG dick sucking in general and are using this thread to vent. Every hack gaming journalist and bionerd out there puts BG 1 and 2 as the PINNACLE OF RPGs, but never bother to explain why.

Sure. I don't disagree that BG is overrated. But why do we have to bring this up everytime some random guy calls it the best rpg ever?
If an article appeared where a journalist gave his opinion on why PS:T is a classic, it would get picked apart if there's one thing on the list that goes slightly against the general consensus in this place. It doesn't matter if the rest of the article is spot on and intelligently written and might lead new people to discover an old gem. If the author at one point mentions that he also likes Dragon Age a little bit, you can be assured that the first twenty replies will be people quoting that one sentence and posting some predictable bullshit about "decline".

Now, granted, this thread IS about BG, so the bitching here is justified to a point. I just needed to vent as I keep seeing newsposts and threads being derailed everywhere because people here are always looking for an excuse to bitch about absolutely anything.

 

[DraQ]

Well no, as about the only thing BG and MW have in common is excessively bad pathfinding, while the similarities between OB and BG are rather significant.

And Daggerfall is closer to Oblivion than Baldur's Gate is to Oblivion. Is Daggerfall the Oblivion of its time?

EDIT: Ultima Underworld is closer to Oblivion than Baldur's Gate is to Oblivion.

EDIT EDIT: Akalabeth is closer to Oblivion than Baldur's Gate is to Oblivion.

You seem to be confusing mode of control/presentation with list of game's highlights and flaws. May I offer some assistance?

 

[MMXI]

You seem to be confusing mode of control/presentation with list of game's highlights and flaws. May I offer some assistance?

Yes please. Assistance would be fantastic because I can't quite understand how you are separating control/presentation and highlights/flaws. A flaw with Oblivion would be not having turn-based combat, a flaw shared by Daggerfall and Baldur's Gate both. Another flaw with Oblivion would be not having fully controllable party members, a flaw shared by Daggerfall but not Baldur's Gate. Tactical combat? Oblivion and Daggerfall lack this but Baldur's Gate does reasonably well. Repetitive dungeons? Oblivion is the worst offender followed by Daggerfall then Baldur's Gate, purely due to Durlag's Tower being reasonably fun. Strictness and importance of class system? Baldur's Gate is the most strict, followed by Daggerfall which has a comprehensive class creator, with Oblivion being the least strict as most classes play the same (due to a shit class creator).

So what are you getting at? Baldur's Gate and Oblivion have terrible writing yet Daggerfall is a masterpiece of literature? How Oblivion and Baldur's Gate have super linear plots compared to Daggerfall's wildly branching narrative? The reason you aren't making sense is because all those similarities between Baldur's Gate and Oblivion would apply between Oblivion and many 80s and early 90s RPGs. I can name lots of RPGs before Fallout with terrible writing, a terrible plot, no choices and consequences and a scarcity of skill checks outside of combat.

 

[Excidium]

I'd like to take a break from this clusterfuck and say that this Matt guy comes across as a true bro and it's a huge shame that his 100 videos combined have less views than the average "funny" cat video. In one of his recent videos he even said that he was thinking of quitting because hardly anyone watches the interviews etc.

edit: eh, too slow, but I completely agree with Vibalist.

Damn, I hope he doesn't stop. I love the interviews.

And he does a good job introducing the classics to a new audience.

 

[Davaris]

Damn, I hope he doesn't stop. I love the interviews.

And he does a good job introducing the classics to a new audience.

What he is doing will be important later on. He is helping to preserve gaming history.

 

[DraQ]

You seem to be confusing mode of control/presentation with list of game's highlights and flaws. May I offer some assistance?

Yes please. Assistance would be fantastic because I can't quite understand how you are separating control/presentation and highlights/flaws. A flaw with Oblivion would be not having turn-based combat

Lolwut.

Another flaw with Oblivion would be not having fully controllable party members

Lolwut.

Tactical combat?

Lolwut.


You know what?
Let me help you:
Both Daggerfall and oblivion also share flaws of not being isometric, being 3D and having directly controllable movement (they share these flaws with Wizardry8 too!).

Next thing we'll see you moaning about Doom not being TB iso, or maybe about it will be Homeworld or something else.


You seem horribly confused and interpret inherent traits of an entirely different subgenres as flaws.

So what are you getting at? Baldur's Gate and Oblivion have terrible writing yet Daggerfall is a masterpiece of literature? How Oblivion and Baldur's Gate have super linear plots compared to Daggerfall's wildly branching narrative? The reason you aren't making sense is because all those similarities between Baldur's Gate and Oblivion would apply between Oblivion and many 80s and early 90s RPGs. I can name lots of RPGs before Fallout with terrible writing, a terrible plot, no choices and consequences and a scarcity of skill checks outside of combat.

And which ones of those RPGs are considered the best RPGs ever by sizeable part of gaming community? Because both Oblivious and Banal Gate share this trait despite being pretty vapid shallow and ultimately boring generic fantasy romps masking their linearity with vast areas of nothing of interest to wade through.

And both seem to have capitalized on the same superficial qualities - outwardly attractive and dynamic presentation that mesmerized the unwashed masses and ultimately dealt a hefty low blow to the genre in general substantially contributing to the decline.
The only difference is that unwashed masses that were so easily impressed by BG's cheap tricks would seem bemonocled elite compared to the drooling consoletards masturbating to oblivious, but that difference is purely quantitative, rather than qualitative.

 

[MMXI]

Both Daggerfall and oblivion also share flaws of not being isometric, being 3D and having directly controllable movement (they share these flaws with Wizardry8 too!).

Next thing we'll see you moaning about Doom not being TB iso, or maybe about it will be Homeworld or something else.

Isometric, 3D and directly controllable movement? But you made it clear you weren't talking about presentation and controls. Plus, I don't know about you but I wouldn't want any Wizardry game to be isometric.

You seem horribly confused and interpret inherent traits of an entirely different subgenres as flaws.

And what sub-genre is that? The worst sub-genre of all, the first person single character action RPG? You can wrap sub-genre labels around RPGs, but you can't use that as a shield to defend its flaws. I mean, I can pretend Baldur's Gate is in a sub-genre of its own where all its flaws are its features. It achieves absolutely nothing in a discussion, though.

And which ones of those RPGs are considered the best RPGs ever by sizeable part of gaming community? Because both Oblivious and Banal Gate share this trait despite being pretty vapid shallow and ultimately boring generic fantasy romps masking their linearity with vast areas of nothing of interest to wade through.

An RPG with a bland setting! A crime against humanity! And since when wasn't Daggerfall full of vast areas with nothing of interest to wade through? It's probably the worst offender in the entire genre.

And both seem to have capitalized on the same superficial qualities - outwardly attractive and dynamic presentation that mesmerized the unwashed masses and ultimately dealt a hefty low blow to the genre in general substantially contributing to the decline.

The only difference is that unwashed masses that were so easily impressed by BG's cheap tricks would seem bemonocled elite compared to the drooling consoletards masturbating to oblivious, but that difference is purely quantitative, rather than qualitative.

No, that's Baldur's Gate II for the reasons I've stated. In fact, doesn't the fact that the "unwashed masses" love Baldur's Gate II far more than Baldur's Gate mean that Baldur's Gate II is a more declined game? It seems to go along with your reasoning. Go over to the BioWare boards and I'm sure there are still people gushing over Aerie's and Anomen's romances.

Your reasoning just falls flat. If Baldur's Gate wasn't made then Baldur's Gate II wouldn't have been. If Baldur's Gate II wasn't made than Dragon Age wouldn't exist. That's cool, but perhaps if Pool of Radiance didn't exist then Baldur's Gate wouldn't have? Is that the start?

And why do you consider Baldur's Gate to be the primary influence on the ultimate example of decline that is Oblivion? Bethesda were clearly heading in that direction with Morrowind so perhaps Baldur's Gate's success made Bethesda water Daggerfall down for Morrowind? But hey, Baldur's Gate is much further away from today's RPGs than Daggerfall is, so how can this be?

 

[Johannes]

And both seem to have capitalized on the same superficial qualities - outwardly attractive and dynamic presentation that mesmerized the unwashed masses and ultimately dealt a hefty low blow to the genre in general substantially contributing to the decline.

The only difference is that unwashed masses that were so easily impressed by BG's cheap tricks would seem bemonocled elite compared to the drooling consoletards masturbating to oblivious, but that difference is purely quantitative, rather than qualitative.

No, that's Baldur's Gate II for the reasons I've stated. In fact, doesn't the fact that the "unwashed masses" love Baldur's Gate II far more than Baldur's Gate mean that Baldur's Gate II is a more declined game? It seems to go along with your reasoning. Go over to the BioWare boards and I'm sure there are still people gushing over Aerie's and Anomen's romances.

So if people like something = decline?

And judge things by their own merits, not by theories of what idiocy it might or might not have inspired. Even if BG inevitably lead to Oblivion somehow, that shouldn't change the experience of playing a game of BG at all.

 

[The Barbarian]

Comrades, the Barbarian has never been ashamed of his love for the Baldur's Gate series. At times - in this topsy turvy world - the sum of a thing is greater than its component parts. None of BG2s (especially) manifold aspects were magnificent in isolation from one another. The gameplay was not revolutionary. Neither was the story an epic for the epochs. It had little, if any, choice and consequence.

Conan even failed to get past the first dungeon three times - out of boredom and frustration - before finally breaking out into Amn and the world beyond some months later. He never looked back, however. There is something about that game... and it is not simple nostalgia. The atmosphere, the vibe, the heart, the opulence; call it what you will, the game has it in droves. The combat is good (perhaps even great), the art is good, the story is good (Irenicus is an all-time villain), the CnC is poor, the music is good and the characters are sympathetic.

Taken together, 'good' becomes 'great'. PT, for its part, had terrible gameplay, a great story, very good characters yet... lacked something, in its own right. Arcanum, similarly, but with a weaker story and much, much weaker characters.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each. Clamoring that there is some definitive, objective ranking system for these games is exemplary of childlike naivety. If you enjoy it, enjoy it. Don't let the convictions of nameless, faceless strangers estrange you from such joy. You do not need their validation; nor should they need your assent.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Baldurs gate was pretty crappy for anything other than exploring an endless grid of outdoor areas populated by a random spawn system. BG2 was good though.