MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries by Piranha Games - now on Steam and GOG

[Black]

Mechs aren't meant for ninja speed movement and other weeabooishness.

 

[Werdna's Revenge]

Yeah I like my jap mecha games, but it's a completely different aesthetic and feeling. Japanese mecha are fighter jets that roll and dodge and cover great distances. Battletech has some zippy stuff, but the focus is usually on the large plodding tanks on legs soaking up the fire of whole armies while dealing death.

 

[commie]

It's the plodding nature that gives the feel of scale and weight, reinforcing the behemoth, battering ram feel. There are fast light mechs too, and MW nails the contrast of going from Kit Fox to Atlas brilliantly. Shit, even the loveable TimberWolf as a 'medium' feels clearly distinct. Jap mecha games, the things feel a bit faster or slower...but they are more like exoskeletons than 'tanks'. MW2 Mercenaries is fucking great but I had a softspot for MW3 based on the amazing Force Feedback(for the time and even now) with the Microsoft FF Pro stick...the best FFB stick evah, with proper pulleys, light sensor detection and the beefiest motors that really tore your hand off during every step or rocket volley. Not surprising as they were bundled together for a time. Shame there's no easy way to transmit the gameport analog signal into even Win XP, or that stick would still be on my desk....

On another note, I also liked Activision's Heavy Gear series...that was more 'Jap' in feel, but even there the 'gears' had a more MW feel(second was more like a FPS in feel, or like Terra Nova).

 

[Black]

It's the plodding nature that gives the feel of scale and weight, reinforcing the behemoth, battering ram feel. There are fast light mechs too, and MW nails the contrast of going from Kit Fox to Atlas brilliantly. Shit, even the loveable TimberWolf as a 'medium' feels clearly distinct. Jap mecha games, the things feel a bit faster or slower...but they are more like exoskeletons than 'tanks'. MW2 Mercenaries is fucking great but I had a softspot for MW3 based on the amazing Force Feedback(for the time and even now) with the Microsoft FF Pro stick...the best FFB stick evah, with proper pulleys, light sensor detection and the beefiest motors that really tore your hand off during every step or rocket volley. Not surprising as they were bundled together for a time. Shame there's no easy way to transmit the gameport analog signal into even Win XP, or that stick would still be on my desk....

On another note, I also liked Activision's Heavy Gear series...that was more 'Jap' in feel, but even there the 'gears' had a more MW feel(second was more like a FPS in feel, or like Terra Nova).

MW3 mechs simply have that delicious thicc MASS and VOLUME, something that doesn't even seem to be in the Jap dictionary when it comes to mechs.

 

[commie]

Heh..that delicious dance of death...like gladiators...that's something you just don't get in Jap games. The thing is in MW you had the one on one 'arena' style battles, but also a lot of hit and run, dodging volleys of missiles against multiple enemies as well. And that vid brought me back to how the joystick would kick you then go dead when your mech was laid out or the heatsinks overheated

 

[Destroid]

MWO didn't turn out how I thought it would. I'm not holding out a lot of hope for this.

How come this franchise can't come back strong?

Mostly because mecha sims are among nichest of the niche, and MechWarrior isn't even a good poster boy for them because it's never reached above "okay." It is why instead your body should be seeking conflict. Though you'd still run into that problem with publishers not being interested in nichest of the niche.

Mechwarrior was as mainstream as it gets in the MW2/3 days, and Mechwarrior Online seems pretty popular.

 

[Dayyālu]

Vaarna_Aarne

Your posts can be easily be dismissed with:

"Arcade tank simulators aren't fun, why the things are so slow instead of being a third person hack&slash with a mecha skin".

Why the heck you didn't start the usual spiel of praising Heavy Gear 2 instead of AC? First, AC is console based, second, AC is fairly less simulative than HG2, being essentially a third person hack&slash with a mecha skin, as much of the Jap mecha games are. Repetitia iuvant. HG2 is dreadfully slow and buggy, but its realistic approach (you have essentially to stealth most missions) is peculiar.

A Gundam musou game isn't a mecha game because it has a mecha skin.

Western mecha games always had the approach of "simulating" walking tanks. Guess what, tanks are essentially stationary, slow and don't zoom around the battlefield like mices on cocaine. Play Mechwarrior Living Legends to see the glory of proper fighting between mechas, vehicles and powered infantry. AC lets you fight like an Elemental? Do you want skill in zooming around? Try downing an Atlas with a jetpack and a laser cannon. It's perfectly doable.

It requires being very very good.

Like most tank simulators, the skillset for Western mecha games is fairly different. Comparing apples and oranges like the usual.

 

[Cael]

Mechs aren't meant for ninja speed movement and other weeabooishness.

He prefers the weeboshit because it is weeboshit. He has made his views on BTech 'mechs very clear on many occasions, viz. they are unrealistic and stupid. The more weeboshit it is, the more it helps his immershun. Hence, his stance.

 

[lightbane]

Varna has been ranting the same shit over, over and over for years. Why do you people still pay attention to him?

Sure it can. MWO proved it by doubling HP across the board.

Never played so I can't say, but that one doesn't soudn as bad as all the shit NuBattletech does, such as the very limited squad size per mission.

 

[Dayyālu]

Varna has been ranting the same shit over, over and over for years. Why do you people still pay attention to him?

Because I hope that once he will engage and have to defend his position, and he never does!

"See this video"

"Ok, completely different gameplay styles from different developers for different systems for different controls"

"One is clearly superior"

"Uhhhm? What? No, for this and this and this. I mean, you can't compare such different gameplay and ..."

 

[Cael]

Varna has been ranting the same shit over, over and over for years. Why do you people still pay attention to him?

Sure it can. MWO proved it by doubling HP across the board.

Never played so I can't say, but that one doesn't soudn as bad as all the shit NuBattletech does, such as the very limited squad size per mission.

The story goes that Light 'mechs were getting destroyed in the limits space of the MWO arenas, so they doubled the hp across the board without increasing weapon lethality. In other words, they fucked non-energy weapons in the arse and then wondered why the players went berserk.

And it was perhaps the worst thing anyone has ever done to BTech. The HBS game? It isn't BTech.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Vaarna_Aarne

Your posts can be easily be dismissed with:

"Arcade tank simulators aren't fun, why the things are so slow instead of being a third person hack&slash with a mecha skin".

Why the heck you didn't start the usual spiel of praising Heavy Gear 2 instead of AC? First, AC is console based, second, AC is fairly less simulative than HG2, being essentially a third person hack&slash with a mecha skin, as much of the Jap mecha games are. Repetitia iuvant. HG2 is dreadfully slow and buggy, but its realistic approach (you have essentially to stealth most missions) is peculiar.

A Gundam musou game isn't a mecha game because it has a mecha skin.

Western mecha games always had the approach of "simulating" walking tanks. Guess what, tanks are essentially stationary, slow and don't zoom around the battlefield like mices on cocaine. Play Mechwarrior Living Legends to see the glory of proper fighting between mechas, vehicles and powered infantry. AC lets you fight like an Elemental? Do you want skill in zooming around? Try downing an Atlas with a jetpack and a laser cannon. It's perfectly doable.

It requires being very very good.

Like most tank simulators, the skillset for Western mecha games is fairly different. Comparing apples and oranges like the usual.

When I care to answer, I answer because I (shit)post near-exclusively for my personal entertainment. I'm always right to begin with, after all.

But as for the reason to use it instead of Heavy Gear 2, Armored Core for now remains the best way to compare because it's the best mech simulator series that has been made so far, by a huge margin. And it is a patently false claim that Armored Core is a hack & slash, when it has multiple times more numerical factors from parts used in play than Heavy Gear 2.

The tank analogy in case of mechs does not work because unlike tanks 'mechs do not actually worry about things like angle or penetration, you point gun and reduce points in body part until enough points are gone. And because of the large vertical target that they are, it requires very little in the way of skill since it doesn't matter if you aim sloppy or not. As long as you can keep those hits on the same area and aren't completely out of touch with projectile travel speeds, and don't just aimwalk, you're golden. It isn't so much that it requires a different skillset, it requires a small skillset with a limited upper limit.

It's the plodding nature that gives the feel of scale and weight, reinforcing the behemoth, battering ram feel. There are fast light mechs too, and MW nails the contrast of going from Kit Fox to Atlas brilliantly. Shit, even the loveable TimberWolf as a 'medium' feels clearly distinct. Jap mecha games, the things feel a bit faster or slower...but they are more like exoskeletons than 'tanks'. MW2 Mercenaries is fucking great but I had a softspot for MW3 based on the amazing Force Feedback(for the time and even now) with the Microsoft FF Pro stick...the best FFB stick evah, with proper pulleys, light sensor detection and the beefiest motors that really tore your hand off during every step or rocket volley. Not surprising as they were bundled together for a time. Shame there's no easy way to transmit the gameport analog signal into even Win XP, or that stick would still be on my desk....

On another note, I also liked Activision's Heavy Gear series...that was more 'Jap' in feel, but even there the 'gears' had a more MW feel(second was more like a FPS in feel, or like Terra Nova).

MW3 mechs simply have that delicious thicc MASS and VOLUME, something that doesn't even seem to be in the Jap dictionary when it comes to mechs.

I actually find it quite shocking how many of the people who post videos of MW3 don't know about CUAC20 bowling. You'd think it wouldn't take that long to figure it out. Also it's just poor form on part of that guy to video himself using the MFB, I mean that's something you don't want anyone to see you doing. Using the MFB is kind of like jacking off.


But anyway, the question isn't so much the visual distinction, it that in terms of mechanical function the difference between a Mad Cat and Orion is the set of hitboxes. Well, aside from MW4, which did make commendable effort to avoid having a 'mech's only definition be its number of tonnage and its set of hitboxes.

The big difference between Heavy Gear 2 and MechWarrior is really the degree of mobility presented (and options for it), a wider array of possible factors to alter (in case of mobility, very importantly the much greater degree in which turning could be negatively affected), and overall lower durability. Going back to the tank analogue, that's really the rather important bit, since in MechWarrior the part where the analogy fails is that tank against tank is essentially a form of rocket tag. One mistake and you die. The same to a degree applies in Heavy Gear, though it's kinda wonky in that respect because of how armor penetration goes off the charts with targeting computer rather than by shooting properly. And overall it's more related to the fact that speed is much more of an asset in Heavy Gear 2.

Though when you are bowling in MW3, the rocket tag aspect does sort of apply since anything being bowled is essentially helpless and dead. I do have some fond memories of this "everyone against him" LAN thing when I was demonstrating what sort of horrible things you can do with bowling. Or when the follow-up fun was the assumption that I couldn't possibly fit a CUAC20 into a Light (though that was just trolling, there's way more reasonable approaches to Pumas than that). But even then, the key issue is that the aspect of skill is relegated purely to the act of shooting, the target is always effectively stationary.

There's also not really an illusion of weight, which I suppose is best demonstrated by the kind of hilarious sound effect MW4 had when two mechs crash into each other. Being ponderous doesn't to me make it feel heavy, merely clumsy. The stomping sound effect from steps and the acceleration transitioning from walking to running does more to convey it.

(Also I'd imagine someone has done the work needed to use the setup with later Windows, I mean some crazy people made a program to make MW4 work with the Steel Battalion controller)

 

[Dayyālu]

And?

"AC IS SUPERIOR"

I read no points about the supposed superiority of AC's model. Wait, different controller, different platform, AC is a third person hack&slash with some ranged options and barely a simulator. At all. It may be fun, but it even belongs in a comparison with Western mecha games?

When I see a AC video I see pretty much stock third person Jap gameplay, nothing particularly different from that. Come on, Japs ape their mecha models from Gundams and mice on cocaine-style. At this point I could argue that AC is a poor man's Tribes, because, seriously , bar having a mecha skin the gameplay seems to be fairly inferior to the high-skill requirement of Tribes with some tacked-on melee options. But but but it has pieces and equipment....

Tribes has different power armour and packs. Who cares about the details.

So, AC isn't directly comparable to any Western mecha games (and we had quite a few once). Apples and oranges.

"It isn't a tank simulation because .... hmmm.... you don't die after the first hit."

No shit. A realistic mecha simulation would not exist because mechas are shit platforms, and arcadey tank simulators require even less skill in mantaning fire on a specific area while the target is actively defending itself and moving. Hell, meme games like WoT or WT are all about hitting the same area with even less shots. I'd argue that a good duel in Mechwarrior LL requires far more skill due to range difference (maps are big), cover, infantry and vehicle support, and of course the good old problems with heat. And at the same time the fuck is probably trying to cover his damaged armour while doing the same to ye.

Also airplanes, but we don't talk about planes, right?

LOW SKILL INDEED BUT WAIT SKILL IS ONLY BUZZING AROUND LIKE CATS ON COCAINE AND NOT HAVING TACTICAL AWARENESS.

I'd start to argue that winning a fight against a team that knows what it's doing in MW : LL requires a shitton of skills (and brain) due the amount of variables. In 2018 we don't need to keep spouting stuff about broken hitboxes and AC20 spam while dueling in a relatively small arena, we have seen better things, and you guess, it's not MWO.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The primary difference is indeed the different controller used, but AC uses it highly effectively and tailors its controls for it. But the simulation aspects are directly comparable as is the level of skill required.

But it is very clear that you don't even know what ACs are armed with or how melee works in AC. AC is a primarily ranged game with a handful of melee options, the focus is on mobility and ranged weapons.

For example, the process of aiming in Armored Core is highly dependent on the simulation aspect. When your reticle (depth and width of which are determined by FCS and Head) targets, a two-stage target lock-on begins (determined by range, Weapon, Arms, Head, and FCS, with possible interference and resistances to interference applied) where initial acquisition once completed opens direct fire and lock-on fires with leading. Factors such as muzzle velocity, weapon accuracy margin of error, booster attributes, turning, stability, energy capacity, and recoil are then added on top. The player's task is to maneuver their mech according to their weapons' and FCS' optimal performance, pre-empt the possible evasive maneuvers of the opponent, make evasion of your own, and act as the final stage of the targeting process by shooting when a hit is actually possible. The targeting processes for melee and missiles use different types of FCS functions like parallel processing speed for calculating effectiveness of multiple lock-ons, or potential maximum number of targets. Active defense is the most important part of this whole process, as your durability is deceptive and if you are not actively avoiding hits you will be destroyed in a matter of seconds rather than minutes of exchanging fire, as the odds of hitting is reversed from MW (where 90% of the time you'll hit because the target is stationary, whereas in AC you also would want to dodge 90% of the time), especially in case of 4/For Answer where in addition to armor attributes there's the Primal Armor shield that acts as a damage mitigator effective and ineffective against different types of weapons (V/Verdict Day use a damage type variable armor effectiveness system instead). Evasion is then based around the player's reflexes, predictive ability, and situational awareness, with the simulation aspect factoring through as this is affected by energy capacity, energy output, booster power, booster cost, booster duration, turning ability, quickboost directional attributes, stability and recoil (a higher mass mech can absorb recoil and impact better), and the enemy's targeting process.

These two core aspects, even just in a flat open space, present a considerably greater level of depth and involved skill. And it's these two core aspects that highlight the level of difference in simulation in AC and MW, and how many more mechanical factors are at work in AC in addition to higher skill and intensity.

(On a different note, the people on Youtube posting the MechWarrior clips have rather poor tactical awareness, which is odd in a series where you generally have very informative radar and torso twist. It's actually kind of painful to watch some of these videos, but I honestly should just accept that the default is that people playing vidya on Youtube are bad at vidya. In that sense there is hardly a comparison since these are games older than Youtube and even then were more for the mass audience back in the day rather than a hardcore primarily Japanese audience whose bodies are seeking conflict; I saw a video of someone exploiting the poor AI to kill an Atlas in Mekpak 4 with an Elemental and I don't know why I am such a glutton for punishment)


Also for the record FROM is aping Studio Nue in AC's visual style, not Gundam. (In fact, one of the guys who created Macross, Shoji Kawamori, was the mecha designer for the series up to For Answer)

 

[warpig]

AC is imo superior but that doesn't mean MW games arent fun, jesus cristo :/ Having variety in games is better than all devs just aping one trend.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Oh that I'll concede, they are quite fun. And MW5 has a core feature I like from get-go, since my favourite experience in MW has been playing MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries Mektek Mekpak 4 (damn that's a mouthful) using modded co-op. Due to its simple nature, MW is much more suitable for single player or co-op than hardcore, so it's good that it's finally making it a core feature.

(Really I'm just being a bastard for teh lulz)

 

[The Decline]

Semi-related, I'd kill for a proper Gundam simulator. Programming your own combat maneuvers and melee attack and defense moves. Adjusting your AMBAC for better maneuverability in space. Making sure your propellant doesn't run out in the middle of combat.

 

[Black]

 

[Chippy]

Mechwarrior 3 managed what no other sim or game I can think of did: it put you behind enemy lines with no resources except what you could scrounge through player skill. They didn't go as far with it as I would have wanted (or I expect the low skill players would still be in their bushwacker with no serious weapon in the final levels with god mode on), but the gameplay meant you only got access to tech and weapons if you salvaged it. And because of the 'rules' it meant even the lightest enemy mech salvaged was of use as you could strip it down for heat sinks and ammo. Just salvaged a Clan ER PPC? Great - you also need the double heat sinks to fire it, same with autocannons and ammo.

If they had randomized the enemy mechs and changed the weight class and type of enemies you faced, as well as maybe throwing enemies at you mobile field base' (so you didn't just take your time with which enemy to salvage)...it could have been one of the most awesome sims of all time. As it was, I always just traded in a Mad Cat for a Masakari, or the Awesome for the Atlas, but if it was randomized, you would have been kissing the feet of every heavy or assault Inner Sphere (and especially Clan) mech you managed to salvage.

Every time a new Battletec mech game comes out, I keep thinking that there's something in there, related to salvage, mechanics, and the mercenary 'gamestyle' that every developer has missed. Strangely I think MW3 was closer to it than even MW2.

 

[Dayyālu]

But it is very clear that you don't even know what ACs are armed with or how melee works in AC. AC is a primarily ranged game with a handful of melee options, the focus is on mobility and ranged weapons.

Why should I? I'm not a console gamer. Never owned one . I see videos, looks like a third person Jap hack&slash.

You are comparing apples and oranges. And your walls of text about trivia (that I can't even be bothered to read, srs) doesn't change that: AC and Western style mecha games aren't comparable, and blabbering about "skills" is meaningless, because they require different skillsets.

One, being on cocaine, the other, tactical awareness.

I could even argue that HG2 is a bad example, because, let us be serious, fighting is fun in HG2? You get a shitton of toys that you can mostly ignore because the optimal playstyle is on rails.

Also for the record FROM is aping Studio Nue in AC's visual style, not Gundam. (In fact, one of the guys who created Macross, Shoji Kawamori, was the mecha designer for the series up to For Answer)

I don't watch anime, so why should I know? The style of flying "agile" flying mechas is far more Gundam than BT, in any case.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I for one fucking love cocaine.

But yes I will agree, the way targeting computer stat works absolutely butchers any sense of balance in Heavy Gear 2, and the game's presentation hasn't aged well at all so a lot of those toys intended for, I dunno, stealth by draw distance, don't really work even with an archaelogical reconstruction rig. And the toys that are guided are nullified by ECM. In this sense the variety of toys you get in AC is more relevant since in single combat even ridiculous gimmick machines like 1000+ mph laserblader are functional enough, and there's few blatantly useless weapons as most weapons exist on a number of spectrums based around specific attributes like type projectile properties (magazine, muzzle velocity, effective range, trajectory decay, damage, fire rate, reload, accuracy, impact force, etc) and ammo capacity, and their energy capacity cost and mass.

 

[karoliner]

It's a poor time for the genre. Battletech is balls, MW5 delayed to september, Phantom brigade doesn't even have a date yet, Front Mission is dead and Square is raping its corpse. A new Armored Core may or may not be announced next year. Daemon X Machina doesn't look that good.

 

[Removal]

It's a poor time for the genre.

The genre, at least western style stompy tanks a la MW and Earthsiege/Starsiege has been dead or at least quasi-dead since the early 2000s in terms of being big names/games, and this certainly ain't gonna bring it back. At the very best we'll get a semi-okay game, but really it's gonna be micro-transaction littered and poorly made.

 

[Cael]

Mechwarrior 3 managed what no other sim or game I can think of did: it put you behind enemy lines with no resources except what you could scrounge through player skill. They didn't go as far with it as I would have wanted (or I expect the low skill players would still be in their bushwacker with no serious weapon in the final levels with god mode on), but the gameplay meant you only got access to tech and weapons if you salvaged it. And because of the 'rules' it meant even the lightest enemy mech salvaged was of use as you could strip it down for heat sinks and ammo. Just salvaged a Clan ER PPC? Great - you also need the double heat sinks to fire it, same with autocannons and ammo.

If they had randomized the enemy mechs and changed the weight class and type of enemies you faced, as well as maybe throwing enemies at you mobile field base' (so you didn't just take your time with which enemy to salvage)...it could have been one of the most awesome sims of all time. As it was, I always just traded in a Mad Cat for a Masakari, or the Awesome for the Atlas, but if it was randomized, you would have been kissing the feet of every heavy or assault Inner Sphere (and especially Clan) mech you managed to salvage.

Every time a new Battletec mech game comes out, I keep thinking that there's something in there, related to salvage, mechanics, and the mercenary 'gamestyle' that every developer has missed. Strangely I think MW3 was closer to it than even MW2.

Considering that MW2 had fixed salvage, any game with a random salvage factor would be better in terms of economics and replayability.

That said, a fixed salvage makes it easier for the devs to streamline their encounters.

HOwever, MW2 had something MW3 didn't: a dynamic market.

 

[Chippy]

Yeah - I was talking about how developers approach the mercenary gamestyle. I haven't bothered with HBS' Battletech game (although I threw a bit of money at them to Kickstart it) but by now they should be giving you the option to take a pay cut for full salvage rights. MW3 did it better even without a market because I always knew I'd salvage a mech with a headshot - then someone probably decided it made the games too easy - which it did with Mechcommander 2, and it all got a bit weird.