KickStarter Monomyth - A first person action RPG/dungeon crawler - now in Open Backer Beta

[Kalarion]

You are terrible, terrible, at tax.

There is no such thing as "revenue tax" you are presumably mixing up either VAT or corporation tax. This thing about 45% of computer game sales going to the taxman is insane rambling nonsense.

This thing about paying yourself in salary being tax efficient is dogshit. Salaries are usually taxed at a far higher rate than cap gains, dividends, etc. Your accountant should be advising you to pay a small salary up to your local lower-tax threshold and then taking the rest as dividends or whatever is tax efficient for you.

Please, stop taxposting and just concentrate on game development - and next time hire a better accountant who isn't going to advise you to randomly recognise revenue when you haven't delivered the product. As @xuerebx has implied above: that is sometimes called 'fraud'.

Go fuck yourself. Half the reason I followed this project in the first place was RatTower's talk about the business side of game production.

I was going to go off about the insults, then I remembered it's the Codex and calling someone a retard in the course of education/correction is top form, so cheers on that.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I still wonder, why they would have us justify the red in the books though.

Depends what tripped it. I assume you filed your business taxes or a disclosure or something. Anyway, you likely exceeded a threshold so they checked in to make sure you weren't setting up some sort of tax evasion scam. Sounds fairly routine tbh.

 

[Nikanuur]

I am not following all of this. If I expect to get 30k I must know that xx k of that goes to taxes, if all of it turns out to be profit. Which it won't, because I can lower the profit and still "gain for myself" by buying and using equipment, energy, rent, etc., (my awesome new computer which I use for gaming AND for work for example). We all know how taxes work: revenue-expense=profit/loss=basis for tax rate. So, what's the problem of paying those xx K from the backers' money to the financial bureau at the very most? If I am horribly wrong, please correct me, but I believe Kickstarter works on the grounds of good faith and reasonable, presentable effort. So, there isn't anything about the creator actually owing money or product to anyone, much less to their backers. That being said, I repeat, I very much respect what you have already shown here. Even if you weren't, I'd be like, Oh well, this was worth it anyway, but I actually do believe you are a talented AND honest person that strives to deliver an awesome game for the most part.

The "issue" in this matter was not the tax itself. The issue was that we had to justify the red in the books.
My suspicion was, we had to do that because of the 20% VAT, that is inherently contained in those red numbers.
Because if I, let's say, would use all the Kickstarter money and then recognize it as revenue later (basically nullifying any expenses), I would still owe 20% of the KS money to the state. Money, which at that point then I would not have (or rather the company wouldn't have). I believe that is what gave them a slight distaste for us.

The solutions would be fairly simple. Either I...
a) use private savings to pay the VAT or
b) have another stream of income ready (for example an EA or a full release)

Anyway, none of this has any relevance as long as the Kickstarter money isn't recognized as revenue.
If legally that money can just hold out as down payments indefinitely (or rather, as long as the KS pledges haven't been fulfilled), then none of this is an issue.
I still wonder, why they would have us justify the red in the books though.

Refreshing my knowledge from the high school business academy about the revenue, costs, income, taxes and re-reading the whole thing here, I now understand what you meant. Thank you for the explanation. Neat info about the down payment too, I didn't know about that. Oh my, you actually made me consider paying you for the EA not for playing but as a support. Still, I hope you find another way as I really feel EA is "fracking" the gaming in general.

Btw, I also don't know what could've triggered the tax man, I suppose if those 30K were already somehow seen as revenue in their eyes, it was easy to trigger 5 more K to get to that treshold where VAT payment becomes mandatory. But shouldn't they provide an explanation? I mean they are not the last vestige of the law or something, they are just some clerks and as such they can shill for their own numbers and may not know everything.

 

[Ysaye]

After this is all said and done, I think for your first DLC you need to make use an enemy type known as "The Collector" that looks like a Vampire Rat and has a similar mechanic to the Basilisks in From Software games where it jumps out at you from the darkness and drains your maximum HP stat.

 

[xuerebx]

And steals your money.

 

[mediocrepoet]

After this is all said and done, I think for your first DLC you need to make use an enemy type known as "The Collector" that looks like a Vampire Rat and has a similar mechanic to the Basilisks in From Software games where it jumps out at you from the darkness and drains your maximum HP stat.

I think it should be called Sir Taxalot and be an undead wight. Same idea though.

 

[Raghar]

There is no such thing as "revenue tax" you are presumably mixing up either VAT or corporation tax. This thing about 45% of computer game sales going to the taxman is insane rambling nonsense.

That depends on country. I was taxed by 70 percent. Of course they told me after this fact AFTER I spend the money.
I also heard about an incident when Poles were idiots and taxed a software that was given for free. The cost of software was about 2 millions (or was it more CAD systems were pretty expensive in that era), you can imagine how much try wanted to tax it.

 

[Tyranicon]

Devs go into Early Access because they need money. You don't really have to justify it, especially as a tiny dev.

As long as you keep people updated and finish EA within a reasonable period of time, people will be happy.

It also gets you more marketing/exposure than just dropping 1.0.

At this point, from a purely practical standpoint, there's no reason for indies not to go into EA.

 

[Butter]

Devs go into Early Access because they need money. You don't really have to justify it, especially as a tiny dev.

As long as you keep people updated and finish EA within a reasonable period of time, people will be happy.

It also gets you more marketing/exposure than just dropping 1.0.

At this point, from a purely practical standpoint, there's no reason for indies not to go into EA.

People are also more forgiving if your game has bugs during EA. Titan Outpost got fucked by going to 1.0 with significant bugs outstanding.

 

[garren]

Devs go into Early Access because they need money. You don't really have to justify it, especially as a tiny dev.

As long as you keep people updated and finish EA within a reasonable period of time, people will be happy.

It also gets you more marketing/exposure than just dropping 1.0.

At this point, from a purely practical standpoint, there's no reason for indies not to go into EA.

I think Early Access also means that the game should be relatively better polished than if you just drop 1.0, people will judge the game on its merits if it just releases as is, but if there's an EA and there's any outstanding issues being talked about that aren't fixed before going gold, people are gonna rip into those issues and the game will get more negative press.

 

[whocares]

I will not eat the bugs. I will not live in a pod. I will not use 2FA.

 

[curds]

I personally don't like EA for selfish, petty reasons.

I don't want to miss out on the hype of playing a game on release, but at the same time, I really don't want to play an unfinished, un-completeable game. It's fine for sandbox games with no real "end", but otherwise I hate the idea.

With EA in a game that can be completed, you're either essentially paying money for a demo, or you miss the excitement of playing something whiile it's new and fresh.

 

[Harthwain]

I may buy an EA game, but if I do I'd rather have it "sit on the shelf" until it's completed to avoid getting burned out when it actually releases. Nowadays I do tend to avoid buying and wishlist though. Unless the price is good.

 

[garren]

Early Access can be abused, big deal. Depends entirely on the dev. Don't like EA, don't buy it.

 

[xuerebx]

Devs go into Early Access because they need money. You don't really have to justify it, especially as a tiny dev.

As long as you keep people updated and finish EA within a reasonable period of time, people will be happy.

And RatTower does keep everyone updated. If his previous updates are an indicator of the quality of effort he puts into his game, I know I can trust him. I mean, jesus, his email updates are mini thesis. :D

I may buy an EA game, but if I do I'd rather have it "sit on the shelf" until it's completed to avoid getting burned out when it actually releases.

Same here. I just support the dev and then play it years later when it's 100% completed.

 

[HoboForEternity]

Anti EA people also forgetting the reality that it is the only way for indie dev to test with different hardware configuration is EA. Of course it's abuseable of course it has caveats, what thing in life isn't?

I prefer games releasing in EA too, whether i play it or not is a different question.

 

[Narushima]

I prefer games releasing in EA too

We've reached levels of Clown World never thought possible.

 

[HoboForEternity]

I prefer games releasing in EA too

We've reached levels of Clown World never thought possible.

and we're back to early 1900s level of illiteracy

 

[Tyranicon]

Early access by itself is not the problem, just like Kickstarter or Patreon, etc. The problem is that people get hooked again and again by devs who are incompetent or scammers.

They throw up some pretty pictures and big ideas, and people go ape shit because they want to be able to buy it now.

And then they get mad when the project inevitably disappears or lingers in development hell.

The unfortunate fact is that it is very hard to create games, and most people assume it to be vastly easier than it is.

For people who know what they're doing, EA, kickstarter and all the rest are ways for indies to break free from publishers and the hilariously inept games industry.

Many of the games that codex likes are made with money sourced from these avenues. We should encourage things that allow indies to have creative freedom, even if most of them squander it.

/end obviously biased rant

 

[Gargaune]

Early Access is fine for small, independent developers and only for small, independent developers. It's basically a combined public Beta and preorder, which is a legitimate strategy for developers at this scale, whereas AA and AAA developers have absolutely no business using it and should be able to complete their product with internal resources. The issue to consider is one of consumer perception, in that EA does have a mixed reputation on account of many floundering projects (which, in turn, is enabled by EA not being refundable all the way to the point of release) and that, in and of itself, indicates a tight budget. In terms of marketing exposure, I can't comment, got no idea whether it's better or worse for sales in the long run.

So I don't think most of us here have a problem with Monomyth going into EA if it has to - it's a one-man project punching well above its weight class and we all have confidence in RatTower delivering. I suspect it would be a point in its favour if it didn't, in that foregoing EA and going to a full, traditional release would be a sort of "show of strength" for the product, but if circumstances require it, that's cool. Personally, I don't mind waiting a bit longer until the EA stage is complete.

 

[HoboForEternity]

Imo the biggest problem for EA game is (that isnt outright scam or obvious vaporware at least) is scope and feature creep.

It can also be a form of judgement of project viability i guess, but it's morally grey as you deem your project as unviable to put more effort and money at the cost of few people who paid for your game. I the end EA can be a great tool (AoD wouldn't exist if not for EA for example) that is easily abuse people's trust.

What developer need, as a non-developer in the end is transparency and awareness of your own capacity agaisnt the scope of your game.

 

[Nikanuur]

Anti EA people also forgetting the reality that it is the only way for indie dev to test with different hardware configuration is EA. Of course it's abuseable of course it has caveats, what thing in life isn't?

I prefer games releasing in EA too, whether i play it or not is a different question.

Yep, I actually do agree, this is not a big deal. Cancelled EAs or Kickstarters aren't the real problem. As you yourself hinted: what in life is without risk?

The EA phenomenon is poisoning the idea of something ideally well-made and replacing it with something always unfinished, always ongoing for a long period of time, inevitably bringing unsettlement, discord, frustration, and, largely, an inability to experience the final product both in a figurative and literal sense. And that I see as the real problem. The heck, the world and gaming don't need any more of that in today's society.
How many of those who bought EA would experience the actual product after having played 80 hours of EA? I'd argue only a handful. You ask what do I care? Well, of the former, everyone will remember and share the shortcomings of uncertainty, the poison of the undone, fractured experience, and only this much of something good. Just look at the forums by EAs, you know people...
But hossana, the development has been helped. Yeah. Despair. No thanks for sharing and enabling more of the general unrest and entropy.

The same goes with many other "great ideas" in the world of business, really. One for all: Let's frack today, care about the polluted underground water, frustrated and angry farmers, sick animals, dying trees, unfertile land and ever-rising prices tomorrow.

 

[sosmoflux]

Bro if he released 1.0 you'd still sit there waiting for 15 updates and the expansion pack and a 75% off sale anyway shut the frick up

 

[Nikanuur]

Bro if he released 1.0 you'd still sit there waiting for 15 updates and the expansion pack and a 75% off sale anyway shut the frick up

A good point
Hovewer, I actually wouldn't. I don't shun whole games for lacking parts if the heart is in the right place, like those you are referring to.

 

[The_Mask]

Titan Outpost got fucked by going to 1.0 with significant bugs outstanding.

I played it version 1.0. *flexes*