Morrowind vs Neverwinter nights

[ds]

I like both for what they are. No doubt Morrowind is a better game un-modded but NwN's easy to use editor has enabled a lot of custom campaigns that probably would never have existed without it. Plus, NwN had jiggly boob physics.

Neverwinter Nights is the worse of the two. Most of the game is wasting my time over waiting for the game to decide it's been six seconds so the character can finally do an action now. Often, if playing a melee character, combat boils down to you just waiting for the enemies to finally be dead while occasionally clicking to drink a potion. The only way to play a character that is somewhat active is to play a shadowdancer/assassin or wizard and even then, you have to put up with the shitty 6 second round timer to do actions. It would have been fine if you actually controlled more than one character like Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. But it's just slow boring dogshit for a single character game since it means that combat for anything above 1hd will tend to drag on longer than it ever needed to. Plus the thing where your character will dance around the map during melee, often walking into nearby traps, is retarded.

It's sad that single-player had to suffer like this to make multiplayer (without pause) usable. NwN does get a lot more playable once you find an item with a permanent haste enchantment.

Bro the engine is barely 3D in practice, it's extremely blocky in layout and doesn't even support slanted floors and walls. Every angle is 90 degrees, hills are always separated from the lower level by a cliff rather than having smooth transitions, etc.

It's possible there are some engine limitations here that make fully sloped hills more difficult but this is primarily an issue with the shitty default tile-sets rather than the engine. Even with the default tile-sets there are slopes to go from one level to another and community tile-sets have expanded this to much more realistic hills, e.g. from a quick search:

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

The love Morrowind gets around here is staggering, considering it's basically the same as Oblivion/Skyrim, just with better world design.

- their only game with deep folklore (instead of going with generic Nordic/European BS)

- no level scaling

- no respawning enemies

- their only game with distinctive/original art direction (not prettier or uglier, just distinctive)

Like, these are the objective reasons why the game is great?

Level scaling is a good design choice, true - but it doesn't push a game into the realm of greatness.

Respawning enemies? That's too taste. You could make an argument for or against it, shows nothing.

Art direction & Lore? Beyond being entirely subjective, neither are an indicator of greatness, merely icing on top. For one, almost all JRPG's differ from the generic Nordic/European BS, does this make them objectively better? For another, the art direction & lore in Morrowind don't cover up the fact that it has shit writing, like all Bethesda games.

I played it well after the fact, so I have no nostalgia glasses, and came to it after having played both Oblivion and Skyrim, and considering the verbal fellatio it gets around these parts vs. the hate the other two get, I thought for sure it was going to be a radically different experience, and clearly demonstrably better. It's not, Morrowind is a hiking simulator with cool mushroom world. It's fun, for sure. But it's still basically the same game as Oblivion/Skyrim just with less concessions and dumbing down.

Neverwinter Nights on the other hand, the main campaign is awful, unquestionably - but I'm assuming that's where most people stopped because the expansions where both good, with HOTU having some of the best writing Bioware ever put in a game, and the modules for it should make it top ten tier for anyone.

I could see an argument against it based on the quality of official campaigns, vs what users are able to do with it, but if you consider modules - Swordflight alone is better then 70% of the shit out there.

 

[OSK]

Best thing to happen from NWN is Bioware unknowingly shooting themselves by licensing the engine to CDPR.

Best thing from Morrowind is a future with Todd Howard memes.

So you're saying Morrowind is better, right?

 

[Vic]

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The love Morrowind gets around here is staggering, considering it's basically the same as Oblivion/Skyrim, just with better world design.

Oblivion already generated a lengthy list of failings relative to Morrowind:

• Comprehensive creature-leveling such that all monsters and NPCs are set at the same level as the PC, with weaker types of monsters disappearing after the character gains enough levels, and stronger types of monsters not appearing when the character is low-level
• Comprehensive item-leveling whereby a high-level PC will not only encounter similarly high-level bandits but said bandits will have random pieces of extremely expensive armor and weapons, while a low-level PC will never find weapons/armor of such powerful material; or a weapon on display in a glass case in a castle will be a worthless replica if the PC is low-level but the real thing after the PC gains enough levels.
• A clunky interface, which was clearly designed for consoles, in sharp contrast to Morrowind's sleek menus.
• Reduction in the number of joinable guilds/factions offering many quests from 10 in Morrowind to 4 in Oblivion, keeping the more generic ones (Fighters/Mages/Thieves guilds)
• Factions now centered around quest lines, with 2 of the 4 (Fighters Guild and Mages Guild) being poorly written and boring
• Full voice-acting for dialogue, which necessitated a drastic reduction in the amount of dialogue per NPC, most of whom have one comment about themselves or their city to offer and nothing else
• Poor writing in general, with dialogue and books less interesting than in Morrowind
• Minigames for speechcraft and lockpicking
• Elimination of certain kinds of items, such as thrown weapons, crossbows, and spears
• Reduction in the number of skills to the point where axes are considered blunt weapons
• Regenerating magicka, which effectively means that all health can be easily regained after each combat, thus removing much of the logistics that existed previously
• Elimination of different physiques (and animations) for Argonians and Khajiits
• Both in-game and out-of-game world maps that offer far less information than their Morrowind equivalents
• Automatic fast-travel to any location that's already been visited
• A quest compass that points to your next destination, the use of which is made necessary by the combination of uninformative journal entries and an inability to ask directions
• A lack of aesthetics, especially compared to Morrowind's brilliant art direction
• A generic, medieval fantasy grab-bag setting, without even the coherence offered by Daggerfall's Iliac Bay region much less the spectacular sui generis setting of Morrowind
• A dull, poorly-plotted main quest, with the only plane of Oblivion featured in the base game (except at the very end) being a generic hellscape with little variation
• A half-baked action-oriented combat system, such that success in combat depends greatly on the player's physical skill, yet is boring and tedious

 

[luj1]

morrowind fans usually need to tell lies about their game

Nah no lies, you are just a beggar of poor taste

Morrowind is OBJECTIVELY a great game, behold

- Bethesda's only game produced without help of autogenerating algorithms (terrain, vegetation, etc.)
- instead everything is hand-placed. you literally have toothpicks and countless manually placed statics which make the world seem real
- their only game with deep folklore (instead of going with generic Nordic/European BS)
- no level scaling
- no respawning enemies
- their only game with distinctive/original art direction (not prettier or uglier, just distinctive)
- their last PC game (not a console port like Oblivion/Skyrim)
- great toolset
- cohesive authentic world due to having actual educated artists (before there were videogame courses) on board like MK and Rolston

So yeah, every few years there is some simpleton guy who doesn't get Morrowind. So he is fuming with rage and frustration. Its actually similar in film circles where people dont get Tarkovsky or Kurosawa

- Bethesda's only game produced without help of autogenerating algorithms (terrain, vegetation, etc.)

I don't care enough about these games to find out but aren't oblivion and skyrim hand made aswell(I've never played skyrim)


- their only game with deep folklore (instead of going with generic Nordic/European BS)

True, but noric/european BS is interesting to most people, you aren't from europe though so I don't expect you to feel the same

- no level scaling

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Leveled_Creatures_(Morrowind) ??? What's that then?

- no respawning enemies

https://help.bethesda.net/#en/answer/17610

- their last PC game (not a console port like Oblivion/Skyrim)

wow youre dumb, my friend

the fact Morrowind had a console release isnt the same as being a console port

you can clearly see the UI was designed for mouse and keyboard

Plus it's absolutely not optimized for Xbox. Whereas with a good PC at the time, the game would run relatively smooth, the performance on Xbox was atrocious. Development for Xbox probably wouldn't have begun until some time Jan 2001 after the release of the Xbox was first announced whereas Morrowind began development as a PC game just after Daggerfall's release. The Xbox wasn't even a whisper in anyone's ears until 1999 and it's questionable as to whether or not Bethesda would have even had access to it's hardware at the time. I would suspect based on Bethesda's reputation that the entire year since getting the go-ahead from Microsoft to develop for the Xbox was spent on trying to get the game to work on the system. That's why I'd favor the idea that Morrowind for Xbox was an Xbox port, not developed for Xbox.

Morrowind was their last PC game and arguably the best. Morrowind also saved the company from bankrupcy, for better or worse.

 

[luj1]

I never played neverwinter nights, what am i losing

Nothing at all.

Playing on a good PW back in the day = best PnP conversion for PC
countless builds
some modules that are better than 90% of games

 

[Max Damage]

NWN was abysmall out of the box, I did like HotU as time ok spent for a couple sessions, but it doesn't hold a candle to Morrowind. I've never played NWN OC past early chapter 2.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

The love Morrowind gets around here is staggering, considering it's basically the same as Oblivion/Skyrim, just with better world design.

Oblivion already generated a lengthy list of failings relative to Morrowind:

• Comprehensive creature-leveling such that all monsters and NPCs are set at the same level as the PC, with weaker types of monsters disappearing after the character gains enough levels, and stronger types of monsters not appearing when the character is low-level
• Comprehensive item-leveling whereby a high-level PC will not only encounter similarly high-level bandits but said bandits will have random pieces of extremely expensive armor and weapons, while a low-level PC will never find weapons/armor of such powerful material; or a weapon on display in a glass case in a castle will be a worthless replica if the PC is low-level but the real thing after the PC gains enough levels.
• A clunky interface, which was clearly designed for consoles, in sharp contrast to Morrowind's sleek menus.
• Reduction in the number of joinable guilds/factions offering many quests from 10 in Morrowind to 4 in Oblivion, keeping the more generic ones (Fighters/Mages/Thieves guilds)
• Factions now centered around quest lines, with 2 of the 4 (Fighters Guild and Mages Guild) being poorly written and boring
• Full voice-acting for dialogue, which necessitated a drastic reduction in the amount of dialogue per NPC, most of whom have one comment about themselves or their city to offer and nothing else
• Poor writing in general, with dialogue and books less interesting than in Morrowind
• Minigames for speechcraft and lockpicking
• Elimination of certain kinds of items, such as thrown weapons, crossbows, and spears
• Reduction in the number of skills to the point where axes are considered blunt weapons
• Regenerating magicka, which effectively means that all health can be easily regained after each combat, thus removing much of the logistics that existed previously
• Elimination of different physiques (and animations) for Argonians and Khajiits
• Both in-game and out-of-game world maps that offer far less information than their Morrowind equivalents
• Automatic fast-travel to any location that's already been visited
• A quest compass that points to your next destination, the use of which is made necessary by the combination of uninformative journal entries and an inability to ask directions
• A lack of aesthetics, especially compared to Morrowind's brilliant art direction
• A generic, medieval fantasy grab-bag setting, without even the coherence offered by Daggerfall's Iliac Bay region much less the spectacular sui generis setting of Morrowind
• A dull, poorly-plotted main quest, with the only plane of Oblivion featured in the base game (except at the very end) being a generic hellscape with little variation
• A half-baked action-oriented combat system, such that success in combat depends greatly on the player's physical skill, yet is boring and tedious

All those are fair points more or less, except the writing, which was shitty in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim - and the combat - which was terrible in Morrowind and better in Oblivion and Skyrim. If you are going to have a first person game with real time combat you can't tie hit or miss to statistics, it makes it feel like shit.

Anyways - all the points you make are the difference between Oblivion/Skyrim being a 6-7 and Morrowind being an 8. The differences between Morrowind and Oblivion are differences of degree - it's not like the difference between Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Yet, it's lauded around here, as if it is that different of a game, and ranked in the top ten of all CRPG's. That's insane. There are at least 35-40 games on that list that are not just better then Morrowind but significantly better.

 

[Harthwain]

The only thing NWN did right was to add a module construction kit.

Too bad the base game is so bad, even its most excellent modules are a chore to play.

I wouldn't even go as far as to say it was bad. Just boring. It was an excellent idea, but it was badly executed and the horrible singleplayer campaign didn't help. So putting Neverwinter Nights to almost anything isn't going to be much of a contest.

That said, comparing Neverwinter Nights to Morrowind to begin with is, in my opinion, nonsensical. I'd rather compare Neverwinter Nights to other party-based cRPGs, while comparing Morrowind to other action cRPGs. And even then it's not very clear-cut (Dark Souls is not on the same level as Gothic for me, despite technically sharing a lot of the same elements. I personally attribute this to jRPGs having crucial weaknesses in the RPG department).

 

[Vic]

I'd rather compare Neverwinter Nights to other party-based cRPGs, while comparing Morrowind to other action cRPGs.

except NWN is not party based and the only action you will see in Morrowind is if you get high on skooma and jump 50,000 kms in the air. seriously, the combat in morrowind is horseshit.

 

[deuxhero]

I'd rather compare Neverwinter Nights to other party-based cRPGs

Literally any party-based cRPG: You can have more than one party member at a time. You can control your party members.
NWN: You can only have one party member at a time and he or she is retarded with no ability to mitigate it.

 

[Harthwain]

except NWN is not party based

You have a companion in singleplayer and the game is designed around multiplayer. So it is party-based in my book. The singleplayer part is just badly done.

the only action you will see in Morrowind is if you get high on skooma and jump 50,000 kms in the air. seriously, the combat in morrowind is horseshit.

I know for certain Morrowind ain't turn-based. Which would place it in an action category with hit-to-chance built in. Say what you will about Morrowind's combat but it holds true to the RPG roots (same goes for the usage of skills in general). Personally I didn't really have the problem with it, even though I can agree it is not amazing.

Literally any party-based cRPG: You can have more than one party member at a time. You can control your party members.
NWN: You can only have one party member at a time and he or she is retarded with no ability to mitigate it.

You're proving my point.

 

[Vic]

You have a companion in singleplayer and the game is designed around multiplayer. So it is party-based in my book. The singleplayer part is just badly done.

You have a follower/henchman, not what I would call a party.

And I never played MP so I wouldn’t say it’s designed for it either. Perfectly playable in single player mode.

 

[Gargaune]

Well, I've never played Morrowind and I'm still playing NWN to this day. Checkmate, popamolers!

 

[Harthwain]

You have a follower/henchman, not what I would call a party.

It is also not a single-character game. In fact, it reminds me of Fallout (with Neverwinter Night obviously ending up worse in this comparison, for obvious reasons). And Knights of the Old Republic (there you had two companions).

And I never played MP so I wouldn’t say it’s designed for it either. Perfectly playable in single player mode.

I rest my case, Your Honor.

 

[ind33d]

The love Morrowind gets around here is staggering, considering it's basically the same as Oblivion/Skyrim, just with better world design.

Oblivion already generated a lengthy list of failings relative to Morrowind:

• Comprehensive creature-leveling such that all monsters and NPCs are set at the same level as the PC, with weaker types of monsters disappearing after the character gains enough levels, and stronger types of monsters not appearing when the character is low-level
• Comprehensive item-leveling whereby a high-level PC will not only encounter similarly high-level bandits but said bandits will have random pieces of extremely expensive armor and weapons, while a low-level PC will never find weapons/armor of such powerful material; or a weapon on display in a glass case in a castle will be a worthless replica if the PC is low-level but the real thing after the PC gains enough levels.
• A clunky interface, which was clearly designed for consoles, in sharp contrast to Morrowind's sleek menus.
• Reduction in the number of joinable guilds/factions offering many quests from 10 in Morrowind to 4 in Oblivion, keeping the more generic ones (Fighters/Mages/Thieves guilds)
• Factions now centered around quest lines, with 2 of the 4 (Fighters Guild and Mages Guild) being poorly written and boring
• Full voice-acting for dialogue, which necessitated a drastic reduction in the amount of dialogue per NPC, most of whom have one comment about themselves or their city to offer and nothing else
• Poor writing in general, with dialogue and books less interesting than in Morrowind
• Minigames for speechcraft and lockpicking
• Elimination of certain kinds of items, such as thrown weapons, crossbows, and spears
• Reduction in the number of skills to the point where axes are considered blunt weapons
• Regenerating magicka, which effectively means that all health can be easily regained after each combat, thus removing much of the logistics that existed previously
• Elimination of different physiques (and animations) for Argonians and Khajiits
• Both in-game and out-of-game world maps that offer far less information than their Morrowind equivalents
• Automatic fast-travel to any location that's already been visited
• A quest compass that points to your next destination, the use of which is made necessary by the combination of uninformative journal entries and an inability to ask directions
• A lack of aesthetics, especially compared to Morrowind's brilliant art direction
• A generic, medieval fantasy grab-bag setting, without even the coherence offered by Daggerfall's Iliac Bay region much less the spectacular sui generis setting of Morrowind
• A dull, poorly-plotted main quest, with the only plane of Oblivion featured in the base game (except at the very end) being a generic hellscape with little variation
• A half-baked action-oriented combat system, such that success in combat depends greatly on the player's physical skill, yet is boring and tedious

TES IV was generic on purpose because they were building on the success of LOTR. The levelling system was broken and encouraged metagaming, but it was unlikely that a player on his own would discover the optimal way to cheese the sleep system.

Everyone who played Oblivion on PC modded the shitty UI anyway. I remember playing it after the 360 came out and the first thing I did like everybody else was download Dark UI and leveling fixes. Shit, even the paid content was worth the price. Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine are some of the best content for a video game ever. Vile Lair was two fucking dollars. Meanwhile, Overwatch is selling Dva swimsuit skins for like $29.99

If anything is wrong with Oblivion, it's the fact that you could no longer layer clothing over armor like Morrowind, but I'm sure that in testing they discovered that the clipping made it look like shit and gave up

 

[Vic]

it reminds me of Fallout. And Knights of the Old Republic

are you going to say they are party based too because you have a companion?

hey, then Morrowind is party based too!

 

[deuxhero]

Morrowind's combat, for its many, many faults, actually does a good job of making builds feel different. Main problem is this depends on systems the player can't actually see like the reach and speed values of weapons, and the unexplained nature of weapon damage ranges work (it's not a dice roll, it's tapping=minimum damage and fully pulling back weapon=max damage).
Short blades have extant minimum damage, so they actually benefit from rapid strikes
Spears are slow, but their moderate damage, high range and secondary dependence on agility (2/3 classes with spear are agility based, and the third just has all weapons as skills) make them good at keeping foes away by stagger locking them.
Axes are slow and have little minimum damage, but have massive max damage, rewarding deliberate strikes
Blunt is the most versatile but not as good in any one category as the other types. It has quick one handed weapons with higher minimum damage in clubs, mid-speed weapons with good power in maces, slow and powerful two handed weapons that deal less damage than axes but make up for it with their long reach, and staves that are fast weapons with long reach but have low damage (staves)
Long Blade is the second fastest after short blades, but has much higher damage than short blades.
Hand to Hand... well it sucks, but they can't all be winners.

 

[ind33d]

Morrowind's combat, for its many, many faults, actually does a good job of making builds feel different. Main problem is this depends on systems the player can't actually see like the reach and speed values of weapons, and the unexplained nature of weapon damage ranges work (it's not a dice roll, it's tapping=minimum damage and fully pulling back weapon=max damage).
Short blades have extant minimum damage, so they actually benefit from rapid strikes
Spears are slow, but their moderate damage, high range and secondary dependence on agility (2/3 classes with spear are agility based, and the third just has all weapons as skills) make them good at keeping foes away by stagger locking them.
Axes are slow and have little minimum damage, but have massive max damage, rewarding deliberate strikes
Blunt is the most versatile but not as good in any one category as the other types. It has quick one handed weapons with higher minimum damage in clubs, mid-speed weapons with good power in maces, slow and powerful two handed weapons that deal less damage than axes but make up for it with their long reach, and staves that are fast weapons with long reach but have low damage (staves)
Long Blade is the second fastest after short blades, but has much higher damage than short blades.
Hand to Hand... well it sucks, but they can't all be winners.

I didn't know most of that. That's a lot better than always choosing the up slash in Daggerfall because it hits 2% more often

 

[Harthwain]

are you going to say they are party based too because you have a companion?

hey, then Morrowind is party based too!

I don't recall permanent companions in Morrowind and I doubt I'd miss something like this. There are ones in Skyrim, but not in Morrowind.

 

[Vic]

are you going to say they are party based too because you have a companion?

hey, then Morrowind is party based too!

I don't recall permanent companions in Morrowind and I doubt I'd miss something like this. There are ones in Skyrim, but not in Morrowind.

not permanent but you get a lot of them during quests like that khajit who has moon sugar up her butt.

and during the battle on Firemoth isle you get your own battalion of followers, who serve as meat shields against the undead’s arrows. fun stuff.

 

[deuxhero]

Morrowind's combat, for its many, many faults, actually does a good job of making builds feel different. Main problem is this depends on systems the player can't actually see like the reach and speed values of weapons, and the unexplained nature of weapon damage ranges work (it's not a dice roll, it's tapping=minimum damage and fully pulling back weapon=max damage).
Short blades have extant minimum damage, so they actually benefit from rapid strikes
Spears are slow, but their moderate damage, high range and secondary dependence on agility (2/3 classes with spear are agility based, and the third just has all weapons as skills) make them good at keeping foes away by stagger locking them.
Axes are slow and have little minimum damage, but have massive max damage, rewarding deliberate strikes
Blunt is the most versatile but not as good in any one category as the other types. It has quick one handed weapons with higher minimum damage in clubs, mid-speed weapons with good power in maces, slow and powerful two handed weapons that deal less damage than axes but make up for it with their long reach, and staves that are fast weapons with long reach but have low damage (staves)
Long Blade is the second fastest after short blades, but has much higher damage than short blades.
Hand to Hand... well it sucks, but they can't all be winners.

I didn't know most of that. That's a lot better than always choosing the up slash in Daggerfall because it hits 2% more often

One more thing: The stamina cost to swing a weapon is determined using a multiplier based on weight. Bound weapons have no weight and thus can be swung for free. This even applies to the otherwise heavy Bound Battle Axe.

are you going to say they are party based too because you have a companion?

hey, then Morrowind is party based too!

I don't recall permanent companions in Morrowind and I doubt I'd miss something like this. There are ones in Skyrim, but not in Morrowind.

There was one added in Tribunal.

 

[F. J. Rothchild III]

This is an "apples and oranges" situatiion if there ever was one.

Both have major flaws, but one is a strictly single-player game with a unique and original setting (whether you like the game or not) and the other, while single-player is available, is one whose world is generic and utterly forgettable, with its devs clearly hedging their bets on the success of modules and community-creatied content. So, in a way, NWN should really be approached as multiplayer game. Bland, but offering tools that are still used to this day to make it fun. Morrowind, however, features a much more fresh world and atmosphere, but its story and gameplay ultimately allow for less freedom and replayability, unless you just really love the world and trying out new classes (which many do!). Its NPCs and the approach to their dialogue options are both some of the worst in the genre, whereas I'm sure there's been tons of NWN fan-made modules, etc. that outclass Morrowind's dialogue system. (I'm more familiar with Morrowind than NWN modules).

TLDR: Both are flawed, but in completely different ways. Their pros are completely different, as well. I feel like they're an odd pair of games to compare. "Gothic v.s Morrowind" or even "NWN1 v.s NWN2" would seem much more fitting.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

the only action you will see in Morrowind is if you get high on skooma and jump 50,000 kms in the air.

I know for certain Morrowind ain't turn-based. Which would place it in an action category with hit-to-chance built in. Say what you will about Morrowind's combat but it holds true to the RPG roots (same goes for the usage of skills in general). Personally I didn't really have the problem with it, even though I can agree it is not amazing.

It wasn't until TES IV: Oblivion that Bethesda Softworks added more action-based components to the combat system and made it much more deterministic, although as with most changes introduced in Oblivion these were poorly implemented and made the game worse. Morrowind combat is similar to Daggerfall in that it replicates RPG combat based on character statistics and randomness, complete with a to-hit roll being made so that even if the player is pressing the attack button while facing an enemy directly in front of the PC, the character might nonetheless 'miss', which as in Dungeons & Dragons can indicate the weapon was stopped entirely by armor, or was blocked by a shield, or that the enemy dodged, or that the PC simply struck wildly.

It might the be the case that every CRPG with action-based combat is real-time, but there are a vast number of real-time CRPGs that do not have action-based combat; real-time necessarily requires a bit of dependence on the player's physical abilities but this can be quite minimal, while still permitting the usual RPG mechanics based on randomness and the character's abilities. There is a vast difference between combat in actual action-based CRPGs, such as Demon's/Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma, and real-time CRPGs in other subgenres, such as Dungeon Master, Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss, Final Fantasy VI, or The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind.